Art vs the Artist

S

SpecialEdition

#nofilter
Banned
MBTI
INFeJ
Enneagram
None
Can you and do you separate the two?
 
I try. I'm not always successful. Its hard for me to appreciate a piece fully if I know the artist did something that offends my values. Its happened the most with music. A few writers. I guess I don't often research the personal life of visual artists now that I think about it.
 
Sometimes.
I think often I view art as almost a creation from some place outside of the artist. So when I'm in that mindset I can more easily separate the two.
But when I'm more aware of the direct line of process from art to artist it leaves a bad mark/association and I can't shake it.
 
Wyote said:
Sometimes.
I think often I view art as almost a creation from some place outside of the artist. So when I'm in that mindset I can more easily separate the two.
But when I'm more aware of the direct line of process from art to artist it leaves a bad mark/association and I can't shake it.
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When I think about this question I'm thinking of a band I really liked who has a lead singer that engaged in sexual misconduct with minors. Given that he's the front man and lead singer it's just something that automatically comes to mind when a song of theirs comes on. It's too bad because so much goes into making a song and an album from other band members to producers to writers, etc. It's not their fault he was scum. If he wasn't the face of the band then he could be replaced and I probably wouldn't think about it as much.
 
I can separate it. But I don't support the person by buying their music/art/books whatever they create. Like JK Rowling has said some shit about trans people - and its her opinion she has a right to it and I can understand her views- but I am still obsessed with Harry Potter. But I haven't bought anything of hers. Well I did watch Half Blood Prince in the theater but that's before I knew about her.

I mean again, I get it but I still don't want to support her.

I wouldn't support a child molester either but if they made a song I like I might still be able to enjoy it because of what it means to me personally, not because it's who they are.
 
Another thing to add, I can usually separate people from their actions as long as it's not consistent action. Maybe not an abuser, but like someone who is struggling with addiction or someone who's a dick to most people I try to understand why, and if there's sufficient evidence that this person is or can be good at heart generally, I try to separate them from their actions. A person isn't their faults, but a person whose faults are overwhelming and they aren't willing to try and be better is generally "bad" to me and I just can't separate it then.
 
April said:
Another thing to add, I can usually separate people from their actions as long as it's not consistent action. Maybe not an abuser, but like someone who is struggling with addiction or someone who's a dick to most people I try to understand why, and if there's sufficient evidence that this person is or can be good at heart generally, I try to separate them from their actions. A person isn't their faults, but a person whose faults are overwhelming and they aren't willing to try and be better is generally "bad" to me and I just can't separate it then.
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For sure. I think I'm focusing on people who do some fucked up shit and people continue to openly support them. Like the Woody Allens and Harvey Weinsteins of the world.
 
SpecialEdition said:
When I think about this question I'm thinking of a band I really liked who has a lead singer that engaged in sexual misconduct with minors. Given that he's the front man and lead singer it's just something that automatically comes to mind when a song of theirs comes on. It's too bad because so much goes into making a song and an album from other band members to producers to writers, etc. It's not their fault he was scum. If he wasn't the face of the band then he could be replaced and I probably wouldn't think about it as much.
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When is comes to that I remember there being bands I Liked at first then saw them in concert and the experience made me feel like I was witnessing something really evil. An example was Marilyn Manson and the first time I heard them was at the Richardson Coliseum near Dallas when I was 19 or so. It was also my first and only experience with H-Bomb extasy. This stuff apparently had a lot of heroine in it and was also my first experience with that. But I remember my friends who I had flown into town to go to this concert with had been pretty heavy into this stuff. The guy they got it from was a chemist I guess and he was dialing in the dosages and they were willing Guinee pigs. All this I was unaware of until after the fact. Anyway they gave me a "Biscuit" as they called it on the way to the place and I remember my eyes started quivering uncontrollably and my teeth that chattering like I was freezing cold and I could barely walk. I kept falling down and was really struggling to even function at this point. They gave me another One as we made our way to the security check point. I was scared because I was so fucked up I knew they would see me like that and I thought I would get in trouble. They just said hold all you stuff above you head and were only wanding people i search of weapons i guess. So now I'm completely fucked up and trying to follow my friends but I couldn't make sense of anything as the high start ramping up. I was just trying to stay close to my friends and they had like a little box area that was sectioned off with railings made of steel pipe. We were going down these stairs and I kept missing the steps and falling down and they would laugh and help me up and keep moving toward where we were going. The Concert was already going and Marilyn Manson was opening for Nine Inch Nails. They were in the last couple songs and I remember how loud it was and deep the base was and how intense it was as the high kept rising up. The last song they played and they first time I heard it was "Cake and Sodomy" LoL. The sound on the music was what I liked but I have never been the best and understanding lyrics to songs. So I have at times liked music that had a really fucked up message because I didn't know the lyrics or what the song was about. I just liked the way it sounded. Well that was the end of their set but I wanted to hear more from them. Nails was really good. Once the high leveled out the experience was definitely memorable. (God this is the long road to make my point but I think you need to understand how I came to my final conclusion.) Fast forward to getting back to Corpus and buying the tape. Jamming it on the way to go surf and all over. Then my brother and I got an apartment and Mason was coming to play in Corpus. So we went and I looking forward to it. This time though I wasn't on 2 biscuits of H Bomb we were just drunk and stoned. Well this place was an outdoor venues standing room only. So were waiting for them to come on and I'm looking a the stage there were mannequins of children tied to the drumset. There were those things that are like two pieces of would connected to make a X with ropes coming down (For Puppeteers to control the puppet) with children attached to the ropes. So now I'm kinda going "What the Fuck" Me and my brother are kinda looking at each with scrunched faces. Anyway they start playing and the crowd started goin off. While me and J are watching. Then Marilyn comes out wearing a garter belt, stockings, a big Black Top Hat and the yellow eye spectacle over 1 eye. When he comes on stage he is walking on those stilts they use to do drywall mudding on. So they are like 3-4 ft leg extensions. He comes out and he's like 10 ft tall and looked scary and evil as fuck. So were watching this show and he was standing on a speaking at the front of the stage and just started pissing thru his panties all over the place. I was watch the pit and how these kids (10-12 yr range) being lifted up and crowd surfing to the front then getting dropped over the rail and the security would send them to the right on the stage and would go back into the pit do it again. there were 20 - 40 kids up on top floating around the crowd. All I can say it that it felt so evil that we split. When we walked out I remember seeing cars lined up with mothers and grandmothers that were waiting to pick there kids up and realizing that they have no idea what I going on in there. I felt really ashamed after that for being into it and literally threw the the tape away and never really listened to them again. This was before the went super mainstream. Like 92-93'. I have never judged anyone for drugs or struggling with addiction. I feel like I judge people if their Actions, Words or Intentions are meant to harm others. (I'm in no way perfect either) But I have zero tolerance for anyone who harms children. Child look to adult to teach and keep them safe and I feel like that is the ultimate betrayal. JMO. That made me not interested in MM after that. I know i seem chatty right now, but Im not usually. This sounds and may be naïve but this forum feels comfortable to me. I am alone almost every day except for my relationship with my daughter(22 yrs old). I just long to meet people who hopefully get me. I meet people and make friends then over time things happen or they try and label me and the way i feel about them changes and they are no longer friends. If that doesn't happen here its ok because I am used to it, but we'll see i guess.
 
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Moranga said:
When is comes to that I remember there being bands I Liked at first then saw them in concert and the experience made me feel like I was witnessing something really evil. An example was Marilyn Manson and the first time I heard them was at the Richardson Coliseum near Dallas when I was 19 or so. It was also my first and only experience with H-Bomb extasy. This stuff apparently had a lot of heroine in it and was also my first experience with that. But I remember my friends who I had flown into town to go to this concert with had been pretty heavy into this stuff. The guy they got it from was a chemist I guess and he was dialing in the dosages and they were willing Guinee pigs. All this I was unaware of until after the fact. Anyway they gave me a "Biscuit" as they called it on the way to the place and I remember my eyes started quivering uncontrollably and my teeth that chattering like I was freezing cold and I could barely walk. I kept falling down and was really struggling to even function at this point. They gave me another One as we made our way to the security check point. I was scared because I was so fucked up I knew they would see me like that and I thought I would get in trouble. They just said hold all you stuff above you head and were only wanding people i search of weapons i guess. So now I'm completely fucked up and trying to follow my friends but I couldn't make sense of anything as the high start ramping up. I was just trying to stay close to my friends and they had like a little box area that was sectioned off with railings made of steel pipe. We were going down these stairs and I kept missing the steps and falling down and they would laugh and help me up and keep moving toward where we were going. The Concert was already going and Marilyn Manson was opening for Nine Inch Nails. They were in the last couple songs and I remember how loud it was and deep the base was and how intense it was as the high kept rising up. The last song they played and they first time I heard it was "Cake and Sodomy" LoL. The sound on the music was what I liked but I have never been the best and understanding lyrics to songs. So I have at times liked music that had a really fucked up message because I didn't know the lyrics or what the song was about. I just liked the way it sounded. Well that was the end of their set but I wanted to here more from. Nails was really good. Once the high leveled out the experience was definitely memorable. (God this is the long road to make my point but I think you need to understand how I came to my final conclusion.) Fast forward to getting back to Corpus and buying the tape. Jamming it on the way to go surf and all over. Then my brother and I got an apartment and Mason was coming to play in Corpus. So we went and I looking forward to it. This time though I wasn't on 2 biscuits of H Bomb we were just drunk and stoned. Well this place was an outdoor venues standing room only. So were waiting for them to come on and I'm looking a the stage there were mannequins of children tied to the drumset. There were those things that are like two pieces of would connected to make a X with ropes coming down (For Puppeteers to control the puppet) with children attached to the ropes. So now I'm kinda going "What the Fuck" Me and my brother are kinda looking at each with scrunched faces. Anyway they start playing and the crowd started goin off. While me and J are watching. Then Marilyn comes out wearing a garter belt, stockings, a big Black Top Hat and the yellow eye spectacle over 1 eye. When he comes on stage he is walking on those stilts they use to do drywall mudding on. So they are like 3-4 ft leg extensions. He comes out and he's like 10 ft tall and looked scary and evil as fuck. So were watching this show and he was standing on a speaking at the front of the stage and just started pissing thru his panties all over the place. I was watch the pit and how these kids (10-12 yr range) being lifted up and crowd surfing to the front then getting dropped over the rail and the security would send them to the right on the stage and would go back into the pit do it again. there were 20 - 40 kids up on top floating around the crowd. All I can say it that it felt so evil that we split. When we walked out I remember seeing cars lined up with mothers and grandmothers that were waiting to pick there kids up and realizing that they have no idea what I going on in there. I felt really ashamed after that for being into it and literally threw the the tape away and never really listened to them again. This was before the went super mainstream. Like 92-93'. I have never judged anyone for drugs or struggling with addiction. I feel like I judge people if their Actions, Words or Intentions are meant to harm others. (I'm in no way perfect either) But I have zero tolerance for anyone who harms children. Child look to adult to teach and keep them safe and I feel like that is the ultimate betrayal. JMO. That made me not interested in MM after that.
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I understand. When he was becoming popular I wasn't into that style of music at the time and his videos felt a bit too dark to me. I like heavy music but there are some music videos and concert sets that make me feel a little creeped out. Now I do like heavier music and it's interesting because I still get that uncomfortable vibe form MM but somehow feel less creeped out by Slipknot who I love. Hopefully there's no fucked up scummy stuff with them waiting to come out.
 
Tricky thing. Not that I support the wrong actions of an artist, but it is hard if you've grown up with someone and enjoyed their work for a long time. Yes, it sours my experience of their work, but I don't necessarily see the artistic side as always one with their character. Many unfortunately horrible people have done good things with their talent. I don't want to justify their actions or ignore the impact their actions have on others. However, it's hard to say I won't enjoy the art for its own sake.

For example, and I know this is going to be controversial for many people, but Bill Cosby and the Cosby Show was a huge part of my childhood and one of the few personalities and characters representing the black or African American experience in ways that other shows had not. I don't support his behavior in any way, but I can't disavow the good his show did for the representations of blacks in media especially in the 80s. I am no longer a fan of his and definitely do not support his actions in any way, and I haven't watched the Cosby show in a long time. At the same time, the Cosby Show will always be a huge part of my childhood.
 
Gaze said:
Tricky thing. Not that I support the wrong actions of an artist, but it is hard if you've grown up with someone and enjoyed their work for a long time. Yes, it sours my experience of their work, but I don't necessarily see the artistic side as always one with their character. Many unfortunately horrible people have done good things with their talent. I don't want to justify their actions or ignore the impact their actions have on others. However, it's hard to say I won't enjoy the art for its own sake.

For example, and I know this is going to be controversial for many people, but Bill Cosby and the Cosby Show was a huge part of my childhood and one of the few personalities and characters representing the black or African American experience in ways that other shows had not. I don't support his behavior in any way, but I can't disavow the good his show did for the representations of blacks in media especially in the 80s. I am no longer a fan of his and definitely do not support his actions in any way, and I haven't watched the Cosby show in a long time. At the same time, the Cosby Show will always be a huge part of my childhood.
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I get and respect your opinion Gaze
 
For me I guess it depends on the artist or personality.
I used to admire Donald Trump, until he had people disrespect me for the first time in my life on this American soil. Trump put a target on people that looked “Mexican”, so basically anyone from Central America. People can’t tell us apart and those people are also judging whether we are here in the country legally or illegally. I suddenly didn’t feel comfortable in places I used to frequent because now I felt the kindness of Trump supporters was fake cause now I knew how they really felt when they saw people that looked like me.
Then corona virus hit and because we had Jared Kushner and not the CDC running the pandemic team, when my beloved dog died, we couldn’t even hold him as he took his last breath when we had to put him down. That shit hurt. Every pet I had to put down before him, I was able to hold and tell them I love them. But because of pandemic uncertainty and no health protocols in May, the animal hospital was too afraid to let people inside and since that day our dog’s liver disease said it was time, all I could do was sit in a car and cry. So when I hear that Trump schmuck is running for President again and people start talking about voting for him again, please let me be one of the first people to say, Are you out of your fucking mind?
 
SpecialEdition said:
When I think about this question I'm thinking of a band I really liked who has a lead singer that engaged in sexual misconduct with minors. Given that he's the front man and lead singer it's just something that automatically comes to mind when a song of theirs comes on. It's too bad because so much goes into making a song and an album from other band members to producers to writers, etc. It's not their fault he was scum. If he wasn't the face of the band then he could be replaced and I probably wouldn't think about it as much.
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Yea this is sorta where my mind was at. Even a terrible person can be a lightning rod in the creation of a prosperous environment.
And we're all not without sin anyway, which of course you can take at any number of levels and notions of severity. Obviously some things aren't comparable.
But the point is, lots of great things have been born from the nexus of terribleness.
It's not ideal and I don't promote/condone it, but it happens and people do benefit legitimately.
 
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