Dogma

[Satya]

Dogma: beliefs that are proclaimed as true without proof

Dogma can be beliefs that are political, economic, religious, social, scientific, etc. Anytime anyone argues that some doctrine is the one correct way or true path, while only providing the doctrine itself and their personal faith as the authority to argue that claim, they are using dogma.

For centuries upon centuries, people in power have used dogma to pit different races, nations, creeds, etc. against each other. Dogma is easily recognizable because it can only be effectively pushed via propaganda. Selective use of facts, and reinterpretations that distort truth, are the basis by which dogma is born and spread.

What do you feel is the best way to fight dogma? Do you feel some dogma is good, or will dogma always inevitably lead to groups clashing because of their competing certainties? Is there a way to separate personal faith from dogma? Are you aware of what dogma's you embrace and which ones in the world conflict with yours?

 

[Wyote]

If you can separate yourself from your ego, you can separate yourself from your dogma. In doing so, you can more logically accept or reject dogmas which may be of help or hindrance in your life.

 

[Satya]

If you can separate yourself from your ego...

But your ego is "you". You ego is your identity, your wants and desires, your entire conception of "self". It is rationally impossible to separate yourself from your ego. If you were to do so, then you wouldn't even be a you.

Or do you mean it in a less literal way? Like to separate yourself from your pride or something like that?

 

[Wyote]

Yea, not the psychological id/ego, but the ego that makes you think you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Everyone must learn humility.

 

[HolySmoke]

My dogma is three-tiered : compassion, forgiveness and love. All three assume self-worth and respect for others. Hell, we could even argue with eachother and disagree regularly because in the end we would still love eachother anyway and all would be forgiven. Another perk is the impact it would have on reducing violence. There would be no need for it and if everyone felt love and actually loved and forgave themselves...well, welcome to my utopia.

 

[HolySmoke]

It is rationally impossible to separate yourself from your ego.

Sayta, this is dogma. It is not true and it can be done. It is also highly recommended and should be a personal responsibility to purge the ego regularly because the ego is the most harmful aspect of the self. It needs to be managed. Many people haven't understood the importance of this, but it still doesn't mean it can't be done. Btw, from what I have read on your threads you seem to do this naturally and aren't even aware of it.

 

[Dash]

I have arrived.


Growing up a Fundamental/Baptist Christian, I know a helluva lot about dogma. The way I see it, dogma is almost always negative. Even if there is merit to it, it's always best to understand why you believe something, rather than blindly following.

On the other hand though, vanquishing dogma requires bravery, strength, and willingness to be mentally isolated. It's a lot like setting out to sea. I would not recommend my path to most. As they say, there is bliss in ignorance hwell:. Not to mention that without dogma, I would have nothing to fight lol.

As for this ego debate that's going on...it REALLY depends on your own personal definition of "ego". I'm quite content to allow my ego to have emotion, desire, "fleshly thoughts", etc. What fun would life be without ego? Lol. Of course, I do agree with you HolySmoke. It does need to be checked & cleaned at times. But nuturing the ego is also important. That's one of the main reasons why I'm Metaphysical/Psychospiritual/Philospiritual rather than Buddhist. They disregard their ego entirely. (That wasn't meant to be an offensive statement or anything...just my standpoint ).

 

[Satya]

Even if there is merit to it, it's always best to understand why you believe something, rather than blindly following.

Yehaw! New sig quote!

 

[Dash]

Yehaw! New sig quote!

Woot :becky:!

 

[HolySmoke]

What fun would life be without ego? Lol. Of course, I do agree with you HolySmoke. It does need to be checked & cleaned at times. But nuturing the ego is also important. That's one of the main reasons why I'm Metaphysical/Psychospiritual/Philospiritual rather than Buddhist. They disregard their ego entirely. (That wasn't meant to be an offensive statement or anything...just my standpoint ).

No offense taken. Btw, did you mention Jung earlier? He was an Infj too. *my ego just surged, whoa* lol

I love that the Buddhist tradition values consideration of speech and necessity to understand how the ego is such a driving force in our thoughts and speech. Personally, it was a reprieve from the hypocrisy of Catholicism. To keep it light, I never understood beeping in the parking lot after Catholic mass.

I'm having a hard time with other aspects of religion...In fact a really hard time and am finding that I'm creating my own hybrid. Convenient, right? There must be something fundamentally wrong with this, my Christian shameful and guilt loving self says, but at the same time I am much more at ease in it...

Your background in many religions, btw, is incredible. Unfettered analysis welcomed and you send a bill to the smirking monkey.:ml:

 

[Dash]

No offense taken. Btw, did you mention Jung earlier? He was an Infj too. *my ego just surged, whoa* lol

I love that the Buddhist tradition values consideration of speech and necessity to understand how the ego is such a driving force in our thoughts and speech. Personally, it was a reprieve from the hypocrisy of Catholicism. To keep it light, I never understood beeping in the parking lot after Catholic mass.

I'm having a hard time with other aspects of religion...In fact a really hard time and am finding that I'm creating my own hybrid. Convenient, right? There must be something fundamentally wrong with this, my Christian shameful and guilt loving self says, but at the same time I am much more at ease in it...

Your background in many religions, btw, is incredible. Unfettered analysis welcomed and you send a bill to the smirking monkey.:ml:

Actually yes, I did mention Jung earlier. He's one of my "role models", so to speak lol. I also figured he was an INFJ. Don't you just love that "brain-tasting" dNi-aFe combination? It earned me the title of Dr. Phil when I was only 13 lol. (Dominant iNtuitive Introverted-Auxiliary Feeling Extraverted).

Oddly enough, I was catholic too hwell:. Even though it lasted 3 years, I still got all of the subliminal mess that automatically carries over. Luckily for me, I have a handy-dandy religa-gone spray .

Why limit yourself to parts of different religions? Why not create your own beliefs from the ground up? An eclectic dogma is no better than a single dogma =/. The way I see it, when you leave Christianity/Catholosism, a complete smelting of beliefs is required. But when you pull out your new red-hot beliefs out of that furnace, you'd be suprised how durable that steel is. In the end, you may end up with a "hybrid" anyway. But it won't be a hybrid, it'll be something of your very own. Resembling a hybird out of sheer coincidence.

And thank you . Even since the age of 6, spirituality of all kinds have been my passion. Combine that with my Leo-clad astrology chart and BAM! You have me .

Oh, and I definitely dig the new avatar . I'm assuming you're a female INFJ-jedi, eh?

When it comes to Buddhism though, it looks to me like the other side of the "fundie" coin. In both Christianity and Buddhism, the ego is something to be avoided, beaten down, and ashamed of. The only difference between the two religions is their approach to the matter. Catholosism/Christianity/Judaism prefer shame, guilt, and fear. Where as Buddhism prefers spiritually-based escapism. Both are very dogmatic IMO. The basic premise is "you're bad". Of course, there are truths in every lie. But to take on an entire set of dogmas only for bits of truth is a bit like eating a donut out of a dumpster hwell:.

 

[HolySmoke]

Luckily for me, I have a handy-dandy religa-gone spray .

Why limit yourself to parts of different religions? Why not create your own beliefs from the ground up? ... The basic premise is "you're bad". Of course, there are truths in every lie. But to take on an entire set of dogmas only for bits of truth is a bit like eating a donut out of a dumpster hwell:.

HEY! I'm old enough to be your mother, but that actually is me. I'm a walking cartoon ! The wings are just invisible in real life.

Look, I'm more than a hybrid here, but yes, I get your point. In fact, if I could I would retype it in all caps. Thanks, will ponder...

 

[Dash]

Look, I'm more than a hybrid here, but yes, I get your point. In fact, if I could I would retype it in all caps. Thanks, will ponder...

I actually forgot to add a bit in at the end of the 3rd paragraph. Basically, it would've said:

I know you're not only using pieces from other religions, but religious "guck" tends to hide in even the most unexpected places. So in this case, the baby does need to be thrown out with the bathwater.

Even Atheists sub/unconsciously carry TONS of baggage from their past beliefs hwell:. Dogma/pathology is just so pervasive at times...it's unbelievable.

HEY! I'm old enough to be your mother, but that actually is me. I'm a walking cartoon ! The wings are just invisible in real life.

Meh, if I didn't tell you I was only 16 I bet you'd think I was at least 25 =P. But I can totally relate to the "invisible wings" feeling. I sometimes forget I don't look like this:

^.^

 

[HolySmoke]

Meh, if I didn't tell you I was only 16 I bet you'd think I was at least 25 =P. But I can totally relate to the "invisible wings" feeling. I sometimes forget I don't look like this:

Oh, sh*t. Can we get a clause in here or something like (read details)

I know, I know. You're smart, young and old beyond your years. GOT IT. I was once that toooo. lol. Gotta fly, bye.

 

[mayflow]

I have a little bit different take on Buddhism. My understanding is that Buddha taught someting much different than "Spiritual escapism" - He taught about freeing the mind from greed, hatred, and delusions.

There are also misperceptions that arise from not understanding the implications of such things as "emptiness" and "anatta" (Anatta sort of translates as "no-self") What these ideas imply is vast. Basically it is meant to be a realization that you are not merely a boy or girl or a certain age or body as these things are always in constant change, but you are part and parcel of the all of the all. Thich Nhat Hanh is a most wonderful Zen teacher who explains this very well in many ways. He calls it terms like "interbeingness."

It can be thought of in many ways as being Metaphysically similar to Einstein's physical theories of relativity. Everything exists because of it's relationship with everything else, and nothing exists alone in isolation.

Here is a poem by him which I have meditated on over and over and over again

Call Me by My True Names

Do not say that I'll depart tomorrow
because even today I still arrive.

Look deeply: I arrive in every second
to be a bud on a spring branch,
to be a tiny bird, with wings still fragile,
learning to sing in my new nest,
to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
in order to fear and to hope.
The rhythm of my heart is the birth and
death of all that are alive.

I am the mayfly metamorphosing on the surface of the river,
and I am the bird which, when spring comes, arrives in time
to eat the mayfly.

I am the frog swimming happily in the clear pond,
and I am also the grass-snake who, approaching in silence,
feeds itself on the frog.

I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
my legs as thin as bamboo sticks,
and I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons to
Uganda.

I am the twelve-year-old girl, refugee on a small boat,
who throws herself into the ocean after being raped by a sea
pirate,
and I am the pirate, my heart not yet capable of seeing and
loving.

I am a member of the politburo, with plenty of power in my
hands,
and I am the man who has to pay his "debt of blood" to, my
people,
dying slowly in a forced labor camp.

My joy is like spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom in all
walks of life.
My pain is like a river of tears, so full it fills the four oceans.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can hear all my cries and laughs at once,
so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can wake up,
and so the door of my heart can be left open,
the door of compassion.

Simply beautiful to me.

 

[HolySmoke]

My joy is like spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom in all
walks of life.
My pain is like a river of tears, so full it fills the four oceans.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can hear all my cries and laughs at once,
so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Simply beautiful to me.

It is Sunday morning. I woke up and read this first. It is simply beautiful to me too.

Sorry, Dash. Just understand that I see a lot of wonderful people here who are fully capable of discussing their theories of life and I am receptive to many of those thoughts.

I speak eye to eye with my children too, who are 6 and 8. They are very powerful thinkers and they appreciate that their family is unique. Everyone deserves this.

Theory eventually gets replaced on the scales by the weights of experience. My older step-son, who is 21, is seeing this now. It has made him much quieter then he used to be. It is a sad state for me. He used to somewhat debate me on points on politics, religion and life. He also once said, I may not agree with you (when it came to some decisions he was making), but later I'd realize the value in what you had to say. It takes a strong person to both observe that and admit to it.

I also see a lot of young people hiding behind their ages here or proudly putting them out there after discussions with the tag line, bet you thought I was older. It is unnecessary because I know when someone here is younger already and it doesn't matter. You see, experience is experience and easy to spot as you age. Theory is something else. That said, I love listening and learning from people of all ages. Again, my apologies for reacting to what was a normal reaction on your part. lol. Keep posting, okay?

 

[HolySmoke]

Here is dogma - extreme Islamic Fundamentalism - that must, my children, be taken very seriously as something extremely harmful. It is real. This website is an important documentary about the real story on Islamic Fundamentalism - an evil which cannot be denied with an agenda to destroy the good and the innocent. It needed to be understood by every adult.

We must realize the choice of good vs evil that does exist in the world today, within, without and make the choice for good.

Go to : www.obsessionthemovie.com

 

[PoetOfDreams]

Dogma is mainly everywhere. I see dogma in religion the most because i am around it. I am really a little Catholic girl who have a hard time to separate herself from church for evidence. I am surrounded by mindful people who has a nice intention to keep me within the church's arms. I am not saying they are ignorant people. Well, enough talking about me troubles about the dogma of the church.

People should get evidence to back up their dogmas. The sad thing is that kids were not thought to ask questions at a young age. ( i guess the mind is too under-developed then) But, schools never suggest to questions to students when students become a bit older. School never thought people to question, like questioning the authority. By that time, people have a mindset on what to believe even though it might not be true at all. When people are ask to be question, they fear and just go back into their ignorance. ( If i offended anyone, sorry. I am just saying my point)

 

[ZenCat]

I'm loving this thread.

I'm too scattered-to-the-winds today to formulate a cohesive thought to participate in it at the moment, but I hope to in the coming days.

 

[Dash]

I know, I know. You're smart, young and old beyond your years. GOT IT. I was once that toooo. lol. Gotta fly, bye.

If I recall correctly, you were the one who said "Hey! I'm old enough to be your mother!" lol =P.

I have a little bit different take on Buddhism. My understanding is that Buddha taught someting much different than "Spiritual escapism" - He taught about freeing the mind from greed, hatred, and delusions.

From what I've seen, all teachings of Buddha lean towards not inducing feeling of any kind. Whether it be pain, happiness, sadness, lust, etc. The goal is to not create any karma (or suffering), thus freeing the individual from this world, and allowing them to reach Nirvana. Of course, there is definitely truth in Buddhism. It's good to avoid pain, afterall. But how is Buddhism not escapism? For the record; I'm not trying to attack Buddhism. Regardless of it's right/wrongness. I just don't see how Buddhism isn't escapism...as the ultimate goal is to escape.

Though I really liked that poem you posted .

Sorry, Dash. Just understand that I see a lot of wonderful people here who are fully capable of discussing their theories of life and I am receptive to many of those thoughts.

I also see a lot of young people hiding behind their ages here or proudly putting them out there after discussions with the tag line, bet you thought I was older. It is unnecessary because I know when someone here is younger already and it doesn't matter. You see, experience is experience and easy to spot as you age. Theory is something else. That said, I love listening and learning from people of all ages. Again, my apologies for reacting to what was a normal reaction on your part. lol. Keep posting, okay?

Sorry? Why? I see no need to be sorry lol. Everyone has differences in opinon, right?

As for the age thing...it's true that age is sometimes, just a number. Though you must admit, it's not very often that you see an infant teaching an algebra class.

-------

And yeah...I know everything I just said was off-topic :mD:. I'd add something more...but everything I would say about dogma has already been said . But I'm definitely looking forward to your post ZenCat .