European Union election results, all the fascists do really well
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j654dgj7
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Fascists doing well in the recent European Parliament election, and it being a fascist project in disguise? That's two gross oversimplifications.
The European Union has 28 member states in it. In the recent election, more than 388 million people from those countries voted. 81% of the votes landed in the 3 oldest and most traditional groups; The Conservatives EPP, The Social-Democrats PES and the Liberal Group ALDE. That gives them the same amount of votes that they received in the previous elections. They have the same amount of power as they had before.
Now, who are these "fascists" that you mention? Since the financial crisis, the right wing politicians have had a fair amount of success convincing people that the reason for the hard times through austerity is caused by the policies of the European Union. They either want the countries to leave the European Union, or to modify our agreement so that they can't interfere with our countries policies. That's the only thing that they can agree on. Very few of those parties are fascists, like Golden Dawn in Greece, while most of them are purely "Eurosceptics", parties that campaign solely about the issue of leaving the European Union.
Now back to the EU being a fascist project in disguise, as [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] mentioned. I understand that the media and general public in the UK islands are very negatively skewed against the European Union, and I understand why. I'm not the biggest proponent of the European Union that you can find. The democracy in the European Union is an odd late-addition to the very undemocratic structure of the Union. In theory the union looks bad, but if you focus on what they get done and how they avoid populism, I think they're fantastic. They've banned menthol cigarettes in the EU from 2020 on, for instance. That would have never happened in a country stale-mated by the aggressively stupid media that we have developed in the western world.
The European Union has 28 member states in it. In the recent election, more than 388 million people from those countries voted. 81% of the votes landed in the 3 oldest and most traditional groups; The Conservatives EPP, The Social-Democrats PES and the Liberal Group ALDE. That gives them the same amount of votes that they received in the previous elections. They have the same amount of power as they had before.
Now, who are these "fascists" that you mention? Since the financial crisis, the right wing politicians have had a fair amount of success convincing people that the reason for the hard times through austerity is caused by the policies of the European Union. They either want the countries to leave the European Union, or to modify our agreement so that they can't interfere with our countries policies. That's the only thing that they can agree on. Very few of those parties are fascists, like Golden Dawn in Greece, while most of them are purely "Eurosceptics", parties that campaign solely about the issue of leaving the European Union.
Now back to the EU being a fascist project in disguise, as [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] mentioned. I understand that the media and general public in the UK islands are very negatively skewed against the European Union, and I understand why. I'm not the biggest proponent of the European Union that you can find. The democracy in the European Union is an odd late-addition to the very undemocratic structure of the Union. In theory the union looks bad, but if you focus on what they get done and how they avoid populism, I think they're fantastic. They've banned menthol cigarettes in the EU from 2020 on, for instance. That would have never happened in a country stale-mated by the aggressively stupid media that we have developed in the western world.
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Somewhereelse
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It does malfunction with some fundamental flaws but that doesn't make it a facist project.
muir
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No what makes it a fascist project is the the merging of government and corporate power and the centralisation of corporate power (away from the people and their democratically elected leaders) protected by big government
muir
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It really depends on your definition of 'fascism'
I define fascism as being a merging of state and corporate power
The people who are behind the EU project are the same families who were behind the League of Nations and the UN
They are globalists who believe that power should be centralised under global governance. The problem with that however is that the more it is centralised the further away from the people it gets
These families are the same people behind the big corporations for examples the banks and the oil companies and they like to meet in secret to decide everyones fate for example at the Bilderberg Club who now make public their list of attendees because of the light that has been shone on them by so called 'conspiracy theorists' and alternative media people who have been talking about Bilderberg for years whilst the mainstream media have denied their existence (until recently)
These corporate families want big government which they can control to use protect their interests against the people...like an enforcer; the globalists are like the mafia families and the governments are like their hoods...their 'muscle' which they use to push around the little guy in their 'protection rackets'
These people have even publically declared their intentions:
"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries." David Rockefeller [June, 1991]
Their long term aims have been explained in the 'zeitgeist' series of documentaries which explain how they are building a European union, an african union, an asian union and a north american union and their plan is to then at a future date merge all the unions under one global government
However President Putin of Russia has said that he doesn't share their vision of a 'unipolar' world (a world where power is focussed in one place) and he has instead called for a 'multi-polar' world (power spread around different places) and that is why the globalists have funded fascist groups in Ukraine to overthrow the pro-russian democratically elected government and to replace them with an unelected government of billionaire oligarchs
Some of the parties that have opposed the EU are 'right wing' for sure but i think there are people on all sides of the political spectrun who realise that centralised power always leads to corruption and exploitation
Not all the parties opposed to the EU believe in merging state and corporate power though...UKIP for example seem to want to protect small to medium sized enterprises which form the backbone of the british economy, work force and are also often the well spring of entraprenurialism (i'm sure i spelt that wrong....and at the moment i don't care)
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Cornerstone
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They banned menthol cigarettes?
For everyone?
The fuck?
For everyone?
The fuck?
muir
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j654dgj7
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Not for "everyone". Member states of the European Union. Any country can leave the union with a simple political majority. People make it sound worse than it is. Compared to other kinds of cancer sticks, menthol cigarettes are needlessly terrible for you and your vocal chords. No one should be allowed to cause themselves that much damage and have the rest of us pay for it.
The whole point of the European Union is to collect European thought with the power of influence. For example, North Americans have the EU to thank for making most consumer electronics like TVs and coffee machines more cost effective and less damaging to the environment.
Banning freedom. What a shameless hyperbole.
muir
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[video=youtube;TzEEgtOFFlM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzEEgtOFFlM[/video]
Somewhereelse
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There's a lot similarity between this and the protest by the American for Obama Care. Europe is all about socialism (inclined). UK never perceived itself as part of Europe, and it would rather want to be more capitalism like the American. Yes, freedom. But when the rich only becomes richer and business rips off ordinary people, does freedom bring justice and protection to those who have little means to survive from the money focused system? Where does humanity sit in the capitalistic picture?
What people in the UK will never appreciate from the EU regulations is the value of making things fairer and defence of human right. Sorry it's not economically efficient. But if you don't believe it, you don't have to sign up.
It's the government chose to sign up and stay in the EU. And the government elected by democracy. No one forced anyone. You read all the terms and conditions, including the fine prints. You signed up. Then stop protesting being dictated.
At this point of time, I genuinely wish the UK quits EU, Scotland goes independent. So that you get back to your own feet and no more blames on others for your own fate. Don't bother what "the bigger good" even means, as it would go completely evil if things don't work out and it will never be economically efficient.
No personal offence. I'm just fed up hearing the English complain about EU, as a "pure victim". Why won't the government quit it if it's all evil? If you are the person to decide, I guess you would have NO hesitation. Again no personal offence.
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muir
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By 'socialism' i take it you mean a big government?
See this is where the term gets missused by the corporate media
Real socialism is when the workers own and control the means of production
Do we have that in Europe? No we don't so we don't have socialism
What we DO have is a big government which likes to interfere by creating the 'nanny state' and which likes to interfere in the economy by bailing out the corporations it likes and through central banks setting the interest rates and controlling the supply of money
But the system is about accumulating capital and the means of production are owned by the capitalist class not the workers so it is a capitalist system. But it's a capitalist system with state control so its 'STATE CAPITALISM' not socialism
The US is a state capitalist country as well; they also bailed out the banks instead of letting the markets decide and they also interfere in more and more aspects of peoples lives (see for example NSA spying). The US economy is also centrally controlled by the central bank
It depends what kind of capitalism you are talking about?
What the US corporate media calls 'libertarians' are people who believe in free market capitalism and they will tell you that bailing out banks is NOT CAPITALISM because that does not fit their definition of capitalism and they have a point because its STATE CAPITALISM
Yes they have forced us. We did not get a referendum on whether or not we want to be in the EU and when they created the lisbon treaty and it was rejected by the Irish the EU politicians just re wrote it re campaigned in ireland and got the same points through under another name
The UK didn't even get to decide on it however
No...we never got to decide
The EU is not about the greater good...it is about the will of the few imposed on the many
The government won't quit because the biggest contributers to the conservative party is the financial sector who are the same people who are behind the EU
The scots did not vote for the conservative party and many of the english are now voting for the anti-EU party UKIP instead of the conservatives because the conservatives have shown that they are beholden to the EU, NOT to the british public
Somewhereelse
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muir, I appreciate your comprehensive response to each comment. But I think there's something we disagree fundamentally.
I am "for" certain level of intervention by the central government. I am FOR it, as I see the good in it. I do not believe in the pure good of democracy as the main stream perceive like the best thing ever for human history. [I'm not saying it doesn't have merits, I just say I don't believe it is pure good.]
Freedom is never cost free and to some level it can be destructive. After the law prevents crimes and a few basic rule for the society to survive, what's left you can call them simply subjective. How much freedom does a society "need" (not "wants")?
About the whole NSA spying thing, I also hold a different view than you. But I'm not going to explore further, as topics like this carry me away and it's disturbing.
By the way, I came from a completely different part of the world and been living in a couple of different countries. [*I'm absolutely NOT saying I know more*] What I have seen/experienced in different nations constructed what I value and what I appreciate for the society/humanity. Not necessary to be right or wrong, but it's most likely different from a lot of people. I stop here before I'm carried away too far.
I am "for" certain level of intervention by the central government. I am FOR it, as I see the good in it. I do not believe in the pure good of democracy as the main stream perceive like the best thing ever for human history. [I'm not saying it doesn't have merits, I just say I don't believe it is pure good.]
Freedom is never cost free and to some level it can be destructive. After the law prevents crimes and a few basic rule for the society to survive, what's left you can call them simply subjective. How much freedom does a society "need" (not "wants")?
About the whole NSA spying thing, I also hold a different view than you. But I'm not going to explore further, as topics like this carry me away and it's disturbing.
By the way, I came from a completely different part of the world and been living in a couple of different countries. [*I'm absolutely NOT saying I know more*] What I have seen/experienced in different nations constructed what I value and what I appreciate for the society/humanity. Not necessary to be right or wrong, but it's most likely different from a lot of people. I stop here before I'm carried away too far.
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muir
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I've also been to many parts of the world and seen how things work there
I don't like being told what to do....what i've found is that the people who like to tell others what to do tend to be either narrow minded or not nearly as intelligent as they think they are
There are the dominant boss types (narrow minded) and then there are their lackeys (not nearly as intelligent as they think they are)
These types tend to centralise power and they create a shit world for everyone with the power they gain
Centralising power hands power to fuckwits like that and takes it away from reasonable and intelligent people
They have found that if they take 1000 people and they get them to guess the weight of something and then take the average it is usually pretty accurate; when people are able to all have a say the outcome is usually representative and reasonable
The problems occur when bad people get power which they can only get under systems of centralised power and as i've already said the most power hungry people tend to be the knowingly bad people and their ass kissing idiotic poodles
Since switching to a centrally controlled economy we have seen two world wars, numerous boom and bust cycles and we are about to see a global financial crash...not very clever
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Wholly crap.
People need to be left alone to do what they want to do so long as they aren't effecting anyone else in a negative way. End story.
People need to be left alone to do what they want to do so long as they aren't effecting anyone else in a negative way. End story.
j654dgj7
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Everything you do affects everyone else, though.
muir
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That's where community is able to determine the ways that aren't affecting others in a bad way
What eventhorizon is describing is 'libertarianism' which is the belief that people should be able to do what they want to do as long as they aren't hurting anyone else
The corporate media does not like this idea because the corporate agenda is to get everyone dependent on the corporations for everything from food, water, fuel, clothes, shelter etc etc
So the corporate media through repetition has got everyone to think that there is only one kind of libertarian which is the capitalist libertarian. These are the capitalists who believe in small government.
However there are also socialist libertarians
The corporations are not nearly as scared of capitalist libertarians as they are of socialist libertarians because they have already subverted capitalism from small government to big government so they know they could do it again
What they are really afraid of is the other type of libertarian which is why they never mention it!
Because their media only ever uses the word 'libertarian' to mean small government capitalists, most people now seem to think that is what the word means
I am not a capitalist by nature but bizarrely i find myself agreeing with libertarian capitalists over many things but not everything. So for example, like them, i think people should be able to smoke a joint if they want or be gay or worship whatever god they want but unlike them i don't think we should live in a society orientated around money and the pursuit of profit
So some self declared libertarian businesses move their operations abroad so that they are not polluting US soil or exploiting US workers but that is not libertarianism because they are still hurting others, they are just doing it somewhere else
So there has to be a level of communication to avoid the effect you describe where our actions affect others. When we had smaller communities that was easily done by word of mouth but now we have bigger communities we can use technology for example the internet which is a giant communications network
So the trick here is to ensure individual freedoms (that people are not being coerced into doing things they don;t want to do) whilst ensuring that they are acting responsbily towards the rest of the global community and that is going to require communication
It can be done however and the sooner people turn their minds to that way of thinking the sooner we can come up with innovative solutions and systems
The alternative of a nanny state being imposed on us through the lazy attitude of handing over power and responsibility to a handful of powerful people will not work out well for us.....they will micro-manage us...they will control EVERY aspect of our life and it is going to be stiffling to the extreme
This is where the term 'totalitarianism' comes from....it means when the powerful have total control over every aspect of your life
Technology is a double edged sword, it can be used for good or ill. If we go down the path i suggest of decentralising power down to the people, who then all work together, technology can be used to benefit everyone sustainably; if we go down the other route of centralising power away from the people into the hands of a few then technology will be used to control us and there are already ample examples of this process being underway
We as a species are at a cross-roads at the moment....this is a key time in our history. It is absolutely vital that we choose the right path at this point and to make that decision sensibly we should not blindly follow what the authorities tell us to do
ThomasJ79
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Oppression can arise from big government as well as big business, which is something that most mainstream libertarians fail to address in the media. "Free market" means "free reign" as far as corporations go. In that respect, the poorer you and the less land you own, the fewer rights you will have. You cannot have both a free market and a strong centralized government controlling it(or protecting your rights). Idealistically, I'm in favor of decentralized government, which makes me more of an advocate of states rights, however, what many states rights advocate fail to discuss is the potential amount of oppression that can occur even at a state level. If the state I live were to have the same autonomy and authority as the federal government had, the abuse of power does not disappear, it only shifts into someone else's hands. Besides, states have had a terrible history protecting the rights of its people. I am earnestly an advocate of small local government. True freedom lies in the hands of the laborers of a community that work together to create a viable, but barely visible government.
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Not everything and of course we need to be reasonable in the way we think about this. What I mean is, people should be able to follow the religion they want, just dont push your beliefs on others. You should be able to do drugs, just dont expect other people to help or support you when you burn out your brain. Do what you want behind closed doors between consenting adults. When in society though, follow the rules so that no one else has to deal with the shit you may cause. Example, I am dealing with a bad manager in my life right now. I should have to deal with a bad manager. My life should be affected in the negitive because of someone elses immaturity. America shouldnt have to put up with the idiots in office right now. You mess up, take another vote, your out yesterday etc...
ThomasJ79
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I do wish the U.S. would increase the number of representatives in the House. As population has continued to increase, the more diluted the voice of the locals, for whom they represent, has become. Since the number of representatives in the House has become fixed, it has become more representative of large sections of a State and not local people.