Satya said:
Lurker said:
Satya said:
Absolutely. Pick a side. :mrgreen:
Hmm, so are you gonna pick one too?
Yes, I will pick the one opposite of yours.
I expected you would
Sadly I often don’t have strong opinions on things so I can’t usually put up a good fight I’m just do damn liberal in that ‘you do your thing and I’ll do mine’ kind of way... I’ll try with this though cause I do think it’s wrong.
I doubt allowing people to be open about thier sexuality will make any noticable difference in the military or morale as homosexuality is already there.
Rape, murder, and suicide are also present in the military, so should we openly allow those? Just because something already exists in the military does not mean we should allow it.
My argument for saying it should be allowed is not because it’s already there, rather that is a response to those who believe allowing gays to be open in the military would upset morale and cause a mass exodus.
Offensive, immoral and
most importantly illegal acts like rape and murder that by their very nature hurt others, is never acceptable, someone’s sexual preference can cause no physical harm to another. The government’s stance on being gay has been accepted as a legal right, rape and murder never will (more hazy with suicide, time will tell). If the government’s laws are reflective of the populations wants then why would the military have different standards when it's responsible for defending the entire country and the accepted rights of citizens?
It is also an opinion that it would not make any noticeable difference in morale, especially considering there are many soldiers who would be adamantly opposed to homosexuality and would no doubt be very dispirited to be forced to serve with those whom they perceive to be acting immorally.
I disagree here although it is a difficult point to know with absolute certainty without seeing the law changed. My experience with the military has involved being around many gay soldiers, I will say that it is more acceptable for a lesbian then a gay man but I have not witnessed any problem with morale as a result of someone else’s sexuality, being able to be open would not change much in a social way, some soldiers are already obviouslly gay they just aren't supposed to talk about it. If problems arrose, no doubt mob rule would win and whoever was in the minority would be pushed aside, which ever point of view that was.
Because of that, I do not believe changing the rules would result in a large amount of soldiers suddenly coming out of the closet, if it won't be accepted by their peers they would probably keep their mouths shut. What it would allow them to do though is have their partner listed as an emergency contact and have living arrangements that would take their partner into consideration. When your job involves a risk of death overseas, having your partner contacted if anything went wrong should be a fundamental right.
Do people who have religious beliefs and cultural values that are opposed to homosexuality not deserve the same respect?
They deserve the respect of being able to have their own religious and cultural values, if that includes being against homosexuality that is their right, but as it is they are not getting the 'same' respect, they are getting more, their considerations are treated more important than an individual’s right to express their sexual preference openly.
Patrick Murphy in the first video covers it for me, soldiers are professional enough to cope.
Ah, but Elaine makes a fine rebuttal with the argument that soldiers are only human and if the standards are opposed to their values and beliefs, then it will weaken their ability to serve effectively. If our soldiers are truly so professional, then why should we change the high standards that are already working so well?
What makes you think they are working so well? Obviously there are problems for this issue to even be raised. US military wants more recruits but there is a section of the population that are considered unworthy of fighting and possibly dying for their country, if I were a gay potential recruit why would I want to represent a military that considered me a second class citizen? What about the soldiers that already serve, knowing they are fighting for a government who does not show them respect? What about their morale?
Elaine Donnelly's argument sounds like; For the sake of those who have a problem with homosexuality the armed forces should make it illegal, that argument is seriously lame, someone should amend behaviour that doesn't hurt you because you have a problem with it? She also raises an example of sexual assault, that has nothing to do with being gay and I have no idea why anyone would think it would, I can’t even put a decent response into words as it’s such a bad combination of ignorance and stupidity. Sexual misconduct and/or assault does not equate to homosexuality, they are two very separate points. Anyone who joins the military must be prepared to accept the status quo but they should be able to do so without being forced to live a lie.
I will admit that Elaine's arguments are somewhat biased and shortsighted, but I would not be so quick to dismiss her main argument. If you truly value tolerance, then why would you so easily dismiss the beliefs and values of those soldiers who are opposed to homosexuality?
I don’t agree with their beliefs and values but I accept they are entitled to have them. Catering to those with homophobic beliefs is catering to the minority and out of step with the times, being gay and open about it is accepted in most other walks of life, why is the average soldier considered so precious that they cannot accept this?
I have witnessed some apprehension within the military but at the end of the day the attitude I see most is "who cares".
Perhaps the attitude in the military is already oppressive to those who are opposed to homosexual behavior. As they may feel like they will be labeled a "bigot" if they demonstrate how they really feel, they choose instead to feign apathy. Of course, their true feelings will eventually be reflected in their service. Therefore it is advisable that we appeal the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy and not allow homosexuals into the military at all.
Sure, that’s one option, while we’re at it, what about those soldiers who have a problem with African Americans or those from Middle Eastern descent? Don’t all bigots deserve the same consideration?
Btw, I love your ability to argue a point from any side.
