I-Thou - Real relationships

La Sagna

La Sagna

I did it! I'm a butterfly!
MBTI
INFJ
Enneagram
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It seems to me that people view others, particularly in relationships, as objects to fulfil their requirements.

Martin Buber has some interesting insight into what is needed to form 'real' and deep relationships.


Buber's I-Thou Insight

"The 'I-It' relationship is characterized by the fact that it is not a genuine relationship because it does not take place between the I and the It. When another person is an It to me, I am, first of all, perfectly alone. I gaze at him and view him from every possible direction, I observe his place in the scheme of things, and I find elements that distinguish him from them. All of this, however, takes place within me; I am judging and I am observing, and the external world is relevant only to the extent that it enters my being."
-- Michael Wyschogrod, Essay on Buber

One of the best synopses of Buber's thinking, and of his chief work Ich und Du in particular, can be found in Michael Wyschogrod's essay in The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, vol. 1 (New York, 1967). Below is an excerpt of Professor Wyschogrod's article.

"Buber's basic insight, an insight that runs through all of his work and that determines his approach to everything he touches, is the realization that there is a basic difference between relating to a thing or to an object which I observe, and to a person or a 'Thou' that addresses me and to whose address I respond. In its simplest form, this is the difference between the way people usually relate to inanimate things on the one hand and to living persons on the other. Inanimate objects are watched, while persons are spoken to.
"However, the distinction cannot be drawn simply on this basis. A person as well as an inanimate thing can be viewed as a thing, or, in Buber's terminology, an 'It.' Whenever we take an 'objective' attitude toward a person, whenever we view him as part of the world and caught in its causal chain, we are in an 'I-It' relationship, even though the object happens to be a person. The 'I-It' relationship is characterized by the fact that it is not a genuine relationship because it does not take place between the I and the It. When another person is an It to me, I am, first of all, perfectly alone. I gaze at him and view him from every possible direction, I observe his place in the scheme of things, and I find elements that distinguish him from them. All of this, however, takes place within me; I am judging and I am observing, and the external world is relevant only to the extent that it enters my being.
"It is otherwise in the 'I-Thou' relationship. Here the relationship is genuine because it is between me and the Thou that addresses me. This Thou is no longer one thing among other things of the universe; the whole universe is seen in the light of the Thou, and not the Thou in the light of the universe...the I of the I-It is a different I from that of the I-Thou because it is not the I as such that has pre-eminent reality, but the relations of I-It and I-Thou. The I appears and is shaped only in the context of some relationship with either an It or a Thou and can never be viewed independently of such a relationship.
"Buber further states that the I-It relationship is maintained with only part of ourselves in it. There is always a part of us that remains outside the relationship and views it from some vantage point. In the I-Thou relationship, on the other hand, our whole being must be involved. Should I attempt to hold back any part of myself, I will find myself in an I-It situation because there will be a part of me that is not participant but spectator, a sure sign of the I-It. This means that the I-Thou relationship carries with it much greater risk than the I-It, since there is no withholding of the self possible, as in the I-It. In the I-It situation the part of the self that remains outside the relationship cannot be injured by the other party because he cannot reach it. In the I-Thou relationship there is no such security because the Thou of the I is addressed with the whole of the I, and any response elicited necessarily pertains to this total I. In the I-Thou relationship, therefore, everything possible is risked without any defensive position being left to which the I can withdraw in case of need."
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Hmm interesting. I only understood it at the last part.
For as much as I understand it I will never be able to have an I-Thou relationship. Simply because of who I am.

Even if I share everything I can and am open about every bit of me. I'm still not fully invested. I can try to and I can give everything for her and mean it. I can give everything I have to give, but I cannot give everything I have. Some things cannot be gifted, shared or invested. I can tell someone about that part of me, but it will still be just me. The other will never be able to reach it. She can know and see that part of me, but she'll never reach it. A part of it is my ability to detach from everything, if I deem that more beneficial to me. I'm still a Thinker after all.

But I can easily let this ability fade to the background and don't exercise it. Sometimes I exercise it. Often in combination with meditation. I let everyone go. Everyone I love. I think I'll be just fine. But then again, I don't have a girlfriend or wife yet. I guess if I keep exercising my ability to detach, it will clearly create the I-It relationships. But for an I-Thou relationship I'd refuse letting her go if this topic pops in my mind. At that point I'd be fully invested. It's wrong to think that from that point on I am fully invested. I can still detach if the need arrives. The test would be when she's missing or something and I can choose to work on detaching or stick to hope that she'll be found. Or even worse if your child gets kidnapped or something. Weirdly, I think that would be much worse than if they died somehow. The uncertainty might break me.

I can hide the ability to detach in the background, but it will still be there. And no one can touch it.
I don't know for sure that I will be able to detach from a future wife or children, but I know that I will try if the need arrives.
 
I believe that mindfully cultivating I-Thou relationships is in large part the root of therapists' work, and is also typical of the most durable and meaningful social relationships.
 
Many people exist as two closed circles bumping against one another. It can help prevent needless extra damage and is a self-preservatory reaction. There are many different philosophies on living and on relationships for sure. What always stands to be the case I think though, is that what you give is what you get. In this world there seems to exist a balance that is hard to breach.
 
Radiant Shadow said:
I believe that mindfully cultivating I-Thou relationships is in large part the root of therapists' work, and is also typical of the most durable and meaningful social relationships.
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I agree wholeheartedly with you on this. Well-trained therapists understand what this concept means. I don't believe most people can even comprehend what the I-Thou relationship really is. They have never experienced it and they are very locked in to relationships that are I-It based.
 
niffer said:
What always stands to be the case I think though, is that what you give is what you get. In this world there seems to exist a balance that is hard to breach.
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I wish that I could agree with you on this. Sadly, this hasn't been my experience. That is why I don't believe in Karma. If karma exists I am due for a very large windfall at some point.
I would say that I know some relationships that are balanced but I know many that are also very unbalanced. Both my brothers give much more in their relationships than their wives do. We kind of say that it's a family curse.
 
La Sagna said:
I wish that I could agree with you on this. Sadly, this hasn't been my experience. That is why I don't believe in Karma. If karma exists I am due for a very large windfall at some point.
I would say that I know some relationships that are balanced but I know many that are also very unbalanced. Both my brothers give much more in their relationships than their wives do. We kind of say that it's a family curse.
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Giving and getting comes in many different forms. Not necessarily in the forms one typically may think of it as.

For instance, if you guys decide to keep yourselves in bad relationships, you put that negative decision into your life, and you get something equal in return for it. It's not about what you give to others necessarily.
 
niffer said:
Giving and getting comes in many different forms. Not necessarily in the forms one typically may think of it as.

For instance, if you guys decide to keep yourselves in bad relationships, you put that negative decision into your life, and you get something equal in return for it. It's not about what you give to others necessarily.
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I'm trying to understand what you are saying. Are you saying that if one person is a giving and considerate person and the other person is selfish and inconsiderate than the first person is getting what they deserve, and that is balance?
 
La Sagna said:
I'm trying to understand what you are saying. Are you saying that if one person is a giving and considerate person and the other person is selfish and inconsiderate than the first person is getting what they deserve, and that is balance?
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No.

I am saying that the careful investment of thought and effort that one puts into their own life (which can include their relationship life) is equal to what they get out, and that every single person always gets a balanced checkbook out of life regardless of what they do.
 
niffer said:
No.

I am saying that the careful investment of thought and effort that one puts into their own life (which can include their relationship life) is equal to what they get out, and that every single person always gets a balanced checkbook out of life regardless of what they do.
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I couldn't disagree more. Some people get a crappy hand that they don't deserve and it has nothing to do with how much thoughtfulness and effort they put in. I'm not saying that is my case, although I would say one of my brothers has that situation as his wife has severe mental health issues and he has to parent their three kids while his wife is more of a burden than a help. He didn't know these issues were going to develop when he married her and had three kids with her. I'm not saying that these mental health issues are her fault but I don't think my brother will ever get back what he puts in to his relationship.

The decisions you make in life aren't always simple and straightforward. You can get into a relationship and have kids and not realize that the relationship will not be balanced. You can decide to leave and take those consequences or stay and take those consequences but there is no perfect simple answer. I don't think everybody deserves the shoddy treatment they get sometimes, no matter if they made bad decisions.

Life can get very complicated for people and I have seen enough of it to have no doubt that there isn't balance in life, unless there is an afterlife and maybe you get your due there. That's why there is religion, because life isn't fair...
 
La Sagna said:
I couldn't disagree more. Some people get a crappy hand that they don't deserve and it has nothing to do with how much thoughtfulness and effort they put in. I'm not saying that is my case, although I would say one of my brothers has that situation as his wife has severe mental health issues and he has to parent their three kids while his wife is more of a burden than a help. He didn't know these issues were going to develop when he married her and had three kids with her. I'm not saying that these mental health issues are her fault but I don't think my brother will ever get back what he puts in to his relationship.

The decisions you make in life aren't always simple and straightforward. You can get into a relationship and have kids and not realize that the relationship will not be balanced. You can decide to leave and take those consequences or stay and take those consequences but there is no perfect simple answer. I don't think everybody deserves the shoddy treatment they get sometimes, no matter if they made bad decisions.

Life can get very complicated for people and I have seen enough of it to have no doubt that there isn't balance in life, unless there is an afterlife and maybe you get your due there. That's why there is religion, because life isn't fair...
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I don't mean "get" in terms of something you like. I mean that it could be returned in the form of wisdom, or the sense of dignity or character building etc.
 
niffer said:
I don't mean "get" in terms of something you like. I mean that it could be returned in the form of wisdom, or the sense of dignity or character building etc.
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That's an interesting way to look at it. Yes, perhaps that is true for some people. In the case of my brother that would seem to fit. But then again some people never learn from their experiences, even good and decent people, so they may never acquire the wisdom or sense of dignity.
 
La Sagna said:
That's an interesting way to look at it. Yes, perhaps that is true for some people. In the case of my brother that would seem to fit. But then again some people never learn from their experiences, even good and decent people, so they may never acquire the wisdom or sense of dignity.
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Maybe. Who knows. I guess my point is that a lot of it is a matter of the perspective a person tries to take. Like it's entirely about how they perceive life from the inside. Not about something objectively measurable from either the giving or taking side, but about how their inner perspective on life comes full circle. It's hard to explain and I think there was a major gap in communication there.
 
I think it would be very hard for me to open up completely to any one person. I've only had one person in my life who treated me exactly the way I need to be treated, the way I deserve to be treated, and while I only knew her more intimately for a year I never showed her all of me still. There were parts of myself that I didn't want her to see because I respected her and I felt that if she saw those parts she would lose respect for me. She, of course, was eager to see those parts and loved and accepted me all the same. It is the only relationship I had where I ever felt fully accepted and is the standard for what I know I need. *sigh*

Though even if I find it again I am more than sure it will take me years to divulge every part of myself regardless of how safe and loved and accepted I am I will always have my guard up to an extent.

=/
 
niffer said:
Maybe. Who knows. I guess my point is that a lot of it is a matter of the perspective a person tries to take. Like it's entirely about how they perceive life from the inside. Not about something objectively measurable from either the giving or taking side, but about how their inner perspective on life comes full circle. It's hard to explain and I think there was a major gap in communication there.
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You've given me some food for thought and a different perspective to consider. I never thought of growth or the maturity and learning we can gain from life as being something that could be considered as a gain that can balance unbalanced relationships, or that that could be one way of considering karma. Being somebody who always learns and grows wiser (I hope) from all experiences I guess if you look at that as payback then I think I have gained more than I have given. But, I still don't see that as karma personally, and it would be nice to have a relationship (not just romantic) where I get back in equal measure what I have put in. With the exception of my mother who passed away a long time ago, everybody else has very much taken me for granted.
 
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