Ignoring Unexplained Things

[barbad0s]

Wasn't sure how else to word the thread title..


Does anyone else have trouble with following steps or instructions when you don't know the reason for them existing?

For instance, when I'm using a recipe to cook something for the first time, I will combine or gloss over certain steps if I don't understand the mechanism for how they are supposed to contribute to the final dish turning out or if they otherwise don't seem self-evidently important enough for me to waste time going through. Like a few minutes ago I decided to try making custard, and recipes say to heat the milk first and pour it into the eggs after and then heat them all together one more time, so in my mind I was like what the heck why can't I just heat them together. So I did. And I made crepes instead of custard. And now I am writing this post.

In general I have a lot of difficulty "just doing" things unless I can clearly see their direct relevance to achieving my end goal. I think it might have something to do with inferior Ti so I was wondering if INFJs (or others in general) have similar problems. The worst response to give me when I'm asking someone why we're doing things a certain way is for them to say, "Because it's just *the way*", and/or, "I can't explain it". I can accept, "Try it out a different way and see if it works as well," or, "It's been documented extensively [*displaying seemingly unbiased and thoroughly compiled source data*] that it produces tangible results when it's done precisely in this way and that's all that's being suggested", but just cold directions with no extra lead-in or explanation or a way to see results in action immediately is a surefire way to kill my trust.

 

[Switchgirl]

I think this could occur with a lot of types

It makes sense, but to prevent this, I remind myself that recipes are structured the way they are for a reason. If you watch a lot of Food Network, a lot of cooking shows will go into detail and explain WHY you must do X a certain way (Sometimes they even explain the food science behind it).

It sounds like you're seeking concrete practicality and effectiveness. Youtube videos are a lot more helpful than recipes/instructions list you'll find online.

Sorry if this wasn't really related to what you were asking.. I'm brain dead right now and explain things really badly =D (Which is ironic in regards to this thread).

 

[Elis]

If I have problems seeing the implications I might do it one time first following the recipe and then try to remove it. Depending on what it is I might do the same and remove some step all together if I think it is unnecessary. From what I understand this is pretty much Ti vs Te, and I think it will drive Te users just as annoyed when someone can't accept already determined rules and order.

 

[Elegant Winter]

I know exactly what you mean. I've thought I was stupid more than once because of it. If I don't understand the concept as a whole I won't understand the individual steps. They'll seem like little enigmas and no matter how hard I try I won't understand them. Cooking is particularly hard for me. Any sort of science or computer related stuff too. Usually, anyway.

 

[Switchgirl]

And by reason, imagine the amount of trial and error the creator of the recipe must have gone through. The recipe is structured the way it is because it was the formula that produced the right answer.

So how I think of it is 2+2= 4, and if I deviate from a crucial part of the recipe, I equate it to 2+2= 3. Not necessarily saying you need to follow the certain steps exactly by the book, but there are crucial steps you cannot miss. (such as heating which affects the entire physical form of the dish).

some steps aren't as crucial, and leaving out some ingredients can be harmless. I see doing that as 1+3=4. Different equation, same answer.

Omg why am I relating it to math

I should go to bed now

 

[barbad0s]

I think this could occur with a lot of types

It makes sense, but to prevent this, I remind myself that recipes are structured the way they are for a reason. If you watch a lot of Food Network, a lot of cooking shows will go into detail and explain WHY you must do X a certain way (Sometimes they even explain the food science behind it).

It sounds like you're seeking concrete practicality and effectiveness. Youtube videos are a lot more helpful than recipes/instructions list you'll find online.

Sorry if this wasn't really related to what you were asking.. I'm brain dead right now and explain things really badly =D (Which is ironic in regards to this thread).

Lol I agree that youtube videos or shows are more helpful with cooking because then the people giving instruction are forced to display their results right after they do everything.

I guess it is sort of related to what I was asking lol. It's not specific to cooking, really anything in a situation where I'm just being instructed to do something. I know that most people *hope* to have a reason when they do things, but the point is that if I don't know or can't figure out that reason myself I become very upset by that.

Specifically online there are plenty of recipes published that aren't that great. Some recipes are rated 1 star and are followed by lots of terrible reviews. Some don't offer a review panel and some have yet to get any reviews so they are a wild card. Many times when I've seen people I know try to follow recipes exactly, number 1): when I have to watch them measure stuff out so exactly it seems incredibly idiotic and a waste of time to me, and number 2): sometimes even if they follow the recipe exactly it doesn't work out anyway in the end. I value attention to quality and paying attention to following every step to the T in a procedure but only IF every step is there for a clear purpose. In general whenever there's been a situation where someone is telling me some kind of "rule of thumb" they heard that they are trying to follow, all they do is follow that rule for no apparent reason other than they heard some reputed figure say it, and they lose all perspective of the big picture and completely neglect the aspect of real life applicability of the "rule".

I guess in summary I don't really think a lot of things are necessarily backed up with reason. I think it's a real coin toss and I don't much care where it comes from or from what level of administration or authority; human error and negligence will always remain present throughout and as much as I can I want to prevent the negligence of others from weighing me down.

 

[Eventhorizon]

In relation to cooking I suppose I would realize there must have been a reason they took the time to state both needed to be heated separately. So if I was in the process of making something I would do it and then find out why later.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

There are a couple reasons why instructions might lack context.
Brevity
People aren't good at writing them.

It is prevalent in cooking because recipes do their best (sometimes) to instruct you on how to cook said dish, not to teach you how to cook.
Everyone is at different levels of skill, and some people don't take the time to consider that you don't know certain things.
It's not easy to assess someone's skill. It's not practical to.

Sometimes when people question me why to do certain things, I tell them to just do what I say or not. I say this because I don't have time to explain my vast wisdom on nuanced and hard-to-explain things. At this moment I realize myself at some point doing the same, and why I do it. I think your ego plays a big part in distrusting advice and guidance from someone who isn't like you. It is simply distrust when you don't know the person.

That said, I think about this a lot, and sympathize because quite frankly, most people's guidance is terrible. This has become evident in this day and age when people can easily publish content to the rest of the world. I'm rather critical of how inconsiderate, lazy/half-assed, and dumb people are, yet feel the need to teach others. But that is selfish to say when this content is helpful to many people of a lower skill level.

 

[Switchgirl]

Lol I agree that youtube videos or shows are more helpful with cooking because then the people giving instruction are forced to display their results right after they do everything.

I guess it is sort of related to what I was asking lol. It's not specific to cooking, really anything in a situation where I'm just being instructed to do something. I know that most people *hope* to have a reason when they do things, but the point is that if I don't know or can't figure out that reason myself I become very upset by that.

Specifically online there are plenty of recipes published that aren't that great. Some recipes are rated 1 star and are followed by lots of terrible reviews. Some don't offer a review panel and some have yet to get any reviews so they are a wild card. Many times when I've seen people I know try to follow recipes exactly, number 1): when I have to watch them measure stuff out so exactly it seems incredibly idiotic and a waste of time to me, and number 2): sometimes even if they follow the recipe exactly it doesn't work out anyway in the end. I value attention to quality and paying attention to following every step to the T in a procedure but only IF every step is there for a clear purpose. In general whenever there's been a situation where someone is telling me some kind of "rule of thumb" they heard that they are trying to follow, all they do is follow that rule for no apparent reason other than they heard some reputed figure say it, and they lose all perspective of the big picture and completely neglect the aspect of real life applicability of the "rule".

I guess in summary I don't really think a lot of things are necessarily backed up with reason. I think it's a real coin toss and I don't much care where it comes from or from what level of administration or authority; human error and negligence will always remain present throughout and as much as I can I want to prevent the negligence of others from weighing me down.

Oh damn, I'm one of those. I follow instructions word for word. In regards to cooking, I'd find myself wanting to make sure each measurement is measured with extreme accuracy because I want the dish to come out exactly as it's supposed to. I don't want it to become too dry, too moist, etc.

You make a good point about how even the exact same recipe done in the same manner can end up slightly different. That reminds me of identical twins.

You won't ever get the exact same result every single time. But at the same time, it's best to follow the rules to prevent yourself from deviating from your desired result, such as what happened to the custard that morphed into crepes.

I get what you're saying, though. That you don't want to just assume that every instruction thrown at you is completely foolproof and effective. Even in cooking, you could follow certain crucial steps to the T, but there is a lot of room available for creativity, just as long as you follow those crucial steps. Also, you must take into account the science behind the instructions in regards to cooking. This can also apply to any instructional process.

"The rule of thumb" becomes so engrained, that with time, people tend to forget it's original purpose. It's a lot like oral traditions and religions to be honest, actually.

It's much like the story of Padmasambhava (Or Jesus). You can either take it or leave it. There has to be a reason his story became so widespread. For all we know, it could have been fiction. Trying to travel through time and envisioning the past helps a lot in this sense.

Such as the story of the custard. Whichever came first, the custard or the crepe, there was someone in the past that experimented, manipulated, or even made a mistake and ended up with the final result, and even named it. They passed on this great creation for generations to come, and because it was THAT method that brought them that end result, it is why such methods are preserved. There are just some things you must follow exactly by the book. Because of that process, a lot of us blatantly assume "If this worked in the past, it must work now." That doesn't mean there isn't room for some innovation and creativity, though.

I do agree with you though that it'd be nice if more cooking recipes/instructions were more clear about the reasoning of crucial steps. Such as: (Do not heat the milk and eggs together, or else you'll end up with crepes). Like I've mentioned above, a lot of us just assume that since it was outlined this way in the past, it must work, or else the instructions wouldn't be structured this way. Which is why a lot of people label humans as being "sheepish."

 

[sassafras]

Er theory-wise, you've got a couple things backwards here.

Ignoring step-by-step instructions wouldn't be an inferior Ti thing, as Inferior Ti is more like being a whiz at something and being frustrated with explaining how you did it. The people who say, 'because that's how it is, I don't know. lol' are actually the ones most likely using inferior Ti. Think ENFJ, ESFJ. They usually cannot see the internal logic behind their own behaviours or the system they follow and they aren't exactly known for being competent debators. Manipulators, yes, but logicians, nope. They have no issue with following authority or doing things how they've always been done, because the goal isn't individuality or making things make sense on a personal level, it's harmonizing everything. They will argue: it's because that's how it's been always done since our ancestors time; that's just the way the world works; that's what the bible says. Dont ask me how I know, I just do. Trust me, I'm right.

inferior Te, on the other hand, is the inability to see how the steps complete the big picture and thus struggle with implementing it. Think of the differences between someone with dominant Te (organized, conventional, intuitive grasp of or respect for direct authority) and someone with inferior Te (philosophical, free-spirited, dreamy, questioning of authority and convention).

Of course, that's not to say that this is a hard and fast rule, and I don't want anyone to think that just because you do this 'x' way you are unquestioningly an 'xxxx' but if we are going to be attributing behavioural tendencies to inferior functions, I just wanted to clarify.

 

[Switchgirl]

Er theory-wise, you've got a couple things backwards here. Ignoring step-by-step instructions doesn't make sense as chalking it up to an inferior Ti thing, as Inferior Ti is more like being a whiz at something and being frustrated with explaining how you did it. The people who say, 'because that's how it is, I don't know. lol' are more likely the ones using inferior Ti. Think ENFJ, ESFJ. It's just cause that's how things work ok, you dont mess with the system because that's how it's been always done since our ancestors time, that's what the bible says.dont ask me how I know, I just do. Trust me, I'm right.

I relate to this a lot. In a way, they do have their reasonings, they just find it hard to translate into words. I tried to translate that thought process into words in my previous post.

 

[sassafras]

I relate to this a lot. In a way, they do have their reasonings, they just find it hard to translate into words. I tried to translate that thought process into words in my previous post.

FYI I did edit my post a bit for clarity.