Ni and Se

[Timmaigh!]

Hello there,

i have a question to ask

Over the past year, since i got interested in the whole MBTI/psychology in general stuff, i guess i read about every possible description/profile/thoughts on/of the INFJ type there is. You all know that, most of the times these descriptions concentrate on the Ni -> Fe inner workings, which i guess manifest themselves in that supposed "uncanny" ability to read people. Thats why INFJs are humanistic, altruistic, emphatic, people oriented... and then on occasion you run into the "mystical seer" hyperbole, which IMHO is sort of crap.

Anyway, last week i ran into this site/article:

http://personalityjunkie.com/the-infj

which is the usual classic stuff i read many times before, but there is something extra, i never read before, specifically this part:

INFJs also have a deep concern for quality. As will be elaborated later in this profile, they long to see their ideals (Ni) perfectly manifested in physical reality (Se). This need for quality underlies many common INFJ characteristics. Their attraction to art, for instance, can be understood as their attempt to perfectly embody an ideal in physical reality. Their love for fine food, clothes, and architecture can be understood similarly. Unlike INFPs, who tend to see food, clothes, and housing as little more than physical necessities, INFJs see the physical world as a forum for manifesting beauty and perfection, a place to marry their Ni and Se.


which is frankly something, i can personally identify myself almost perfectly, way more than that "people reader" thing. But it sort of goes against the whole "INFJs not caring about superficial stuff like physical reality/beauty" doctrine - which is apparently the "S" thing mostly, if i understood that right. I am however sure i have this aesthetical bent, in fact i believe its probably my main character/temperament trait. And this the first thing i read which explains it in terms of INFJ related cognitive functions - and TBF i can see the logic behind it.

The question is, whether its because i am trying to fit the INFJ profile by all costs and i am just mistyped ISXX type lying to himself, or it may be actually true? So what do you make out of it? Does that paragraph make any sense to you?

 

[sassafras]

Inferior functions are both our ideal and adversary. They are the embodiment of Jung's anima/animus in that they are in direct opposition to our nature. On one hand, we feel repelled by our inferior function, but on the other, we're attracted to it. It's a source of our cognitive dissonance, the push-pull. If we can resolve the challenge of the inferior, we'll be become more balanced individuals.

In INJs, Extraverted Sensing manifests as a desire to control the outside world and make it so that it lives up to its ideals. INJs will swing from two extremes. Either they will fixate on external reality by trying to control it (trying to force their ideals on others) or being controlled by it (getting caught in sensual pleasures, hoarding and/or self-destruction), or they will reject external reality/be highly critical of it because they find it impossible to live up to their ideas. An INFJ who has integrated their inferior Se will be a good balance of compassion, idealism, and practicality.

ISXX would mean that introverted sensing is either your dominant or auxiliary, which is a huge swing from INFJ. lol.

 

[Mary Shelley]

You all know that, most of the times these descriptions concentrate on the Ni -> Fe inner workings, which i guess manifest themselves in that supposed "uncanny" ability to read people. Thats why INFJs are humanistic, altruistic, emphatic, people oriented... and then on occasion you run into the "mystical seer" hyperbole, which IMHO is sort of crap.

It seems to me that the first two functions are so immediate as to seem involuntary. With extroverted feeling, I feel almost assaulted by the feelings of others around me. It doesn't matter if these people or good or bad or are "getting what they deserve" or anything else. When I see someone hurting, I hurt. Conversely, extroverted feelings seems more able to "infect" others with their moods. This to me is the function. When we say, "humanistic, altruistic, emphatic, people oriented," I feel that it is misleading. This describes behavior. Clearly we can all think one way and behave another for a multitude of other reasons. That I feel what others around me feel or that my moods are contagious is not a reason to nominate me for an award or dub me humanitarian. These descriptions I think often introduce confusion by implying that behavior matches cognitive function when it often does not.

Intuition can be perceived as "mystical" because it seems to come from nowhere. Like anything else, some will attempt to explain phenomena in a scientific way and others will seek to explain it in a spiritual way. Regardless of where it comes from, we are really talking about the same thing. A more scientific explanation would be that those with strong introverted intuition subconsciously track the same details that an introverted sensor tracks. It may be that we reach our conclusions slightly faster because we are not bogged down by the minutia of naming and cataloging all of the things we sense. If you have ever worked with software, you might think of this as "black box" versus "white box." White box exposes the internal working and details as Si does. Black box hides these details and exposes only the interface as Ni does.

INFJs also have a deep concern for quality. As will be elaborated later in this profile, they long to see their ideals (Ni) perfectly manifested in physical reality (Se). This need for quality underlies many common INFJ characteristics. Their attraction to art, for instance, can be understood as their attempt to perfectly embody an ideal in physical reality. Their love for fine food, clothes, and architecture can be understood similarly. Unlike INFPs, who tend to see food, clothes, and housing as little more than physical necessities, INFJs see the physical world as a forum for manifesting beauty and perfection, a place to marry their Ni and Se.


which is frankly something, i can personally identify myself almost perfectly, way more than that "people reader" thing. But it sort of goes against the whole "INFJs not caring about superficial stuff like physical reality/beauty" doctrine - which is apparently the "S" thing mostly, if i understood that right.

Extroverted sensing is the inferior function for INFJ. We are so busy getting lost in our own heads that we can often allow ourselves to become unaware of the world outside of us. Tertiary and inferior functions are often less developed and therefore display a hot and cold nature. This is why INTJs may be prone to hyper emotionalism. They don't pay "enough" attention to their feelings until they become overwhelming then suddenly they don't know what to do with them because they have not had the practice. Similarly someone with inferior extroverted sensing may be completely unaware that they are sitting on an ant mound until they are covered in ant bites. On the occasions that we do bring extroverted sensing into focus, we can be very particular. We may get grumpy from low blood sugar before realizing that we are even hungry but once thinking about it, we may overcompensate by demanding the best sushi in town.

Those who have sensing as a dominant or auxiliary function tend to be more aware of the material things at all times and I think it is this that some commonly come to associate with superficiality. Those with extroverted sensing seem more likely to feel itchy in their clothing, be distracted by a flickering light in the background, or feel compelled to look at something that appreciate aesthetically. Because they use this function more frequently, they may be better at spotting physical details and may be less likely to jump from not caring at all to having impossible standards the way someone with tertiary or inferior Se may.

I am however sure i have this aesthetical bent, in fact i believe its probably my main character/temperament trait. And this the first thing i read which explains it in terms of INFJ related cognitive functions - and TBF i can see the logic behind it. The question is, whether its because i am trying to fit the INFJ profile by all costs and i am just mistyped ISXX type lying to himself, or it may be actually true? So what do you make out of it? Does that paragraph make any sense to you?

I do think many become attached to the things they read in personality type descriptions and along with the tests I suspect may be why so many people mistype themselves. To me it would seem far more satisfying to understand the cognitive functions more thoroughly and then try to discern which of them you "default" to using most readily. You may be a sensor if your first response to everything is to take in the details of your physical surroundings. This doesn't mean it is more important to you or that you are more particular, it would only mean that it's what your brain innately prefers to focus on more than anything.

If you do think that extroverted sensing is one of your first go-to functions, then you may consider ISTP. ISTP has the same function stack as INFJ but in a different order.

INFJ - Ni/Fe/Ti/Se
ISTP - Ti/Se/Ni/Fe

 

[sassafras]

It seems to me that the first two functions are so immediate as to seem involuntary. With extroverted feeling, I feel almost assaulted by the feelings of others around me. It doesn't matter if these people or good or bad or are "getting what they deserve" or anything else. When I see someone hurting, I hurt. Conversely, extroverted feelings seems more able to "infect" others with their moods. This to me is the function. When we say, "humanistic, altruistic, emphatic, people oriented," I feel that it is misleading. This describes behavior. Clearly we can all think one way and behave another for a multitude of other reasons. That I feel what others around me feel or that my moods are contagious is not a reason to nominate me for an award or dub me humanitarian. These descriptions I think often introduce confusion by implying that behavior matches cognitive function when it often does not.

Seeing as you asked me to comment on your post... here I go!

I kind of agree with what you're saying here. I agree that behaviours don't necessary correspond with functions as functions are really clusters of thinking habits that focus on select information and process it a certain way; behaviours are based on the individual interpretation. For example, extraverted feeling focuses on external value-based data and the relationships between this data and builds on it. It's functionally similar to extraverted-intuition in the patterns it can pick up on and it's big picture thinking, only instead of being unconscious and perceiving, extraverted feeling is conscious and judging. Therefore, it is concerned with applying the data in some way. That's why you might say that extraverted judging functions 'infect' others with their ideas and impressions. Paired with introverted intuition, they'd know exactly how to go about the best way of doing it too. Dominant introverted intuition unconsciously offers up the pattern, the extraverted feeling adopts it and applies it without even really thinking about it.

That being said, there is one caveat to language. INFJs may understand and be concerned (read: focused on) with the well-being of others, but they are not naturally empathetic in the way INFPs and ISFPs are. INFJs tend to be more cerebral because their introverted functions are cerebral. Ni is neutral and unconscious, whereas Ti is emotionally detached. Extraverted feeling, meanwhile, makes meaningful, value-based connections outside of itself. It is diametrically opposite to what introverted feeling does; an introverted feeling dominant or auxiliary is extremely proficient in re-creating feelings within themselves whereas a dominant or auxiliary extraverted feeler is more attuned to emotional cues of others. This is why many people rag on extraverted feelers for being too concerned with social rituals as opposed to being entirely sincere. The pain of others isn't internalized; it's processed, understood, and either resolved or salved based on the perceived needs of the other person. Of course, it comes across as more naturally than the way its described, nor is it as robotic. Make no mistake. I'm not saying the extraverted feelers are incapable of feeling. Their emotions are simply not as intense as a introverted feelers who are capable of making a storm in their own teacups. Fe's adjust their behaviour in accordance to the needs and wants of the group; their feelings, however, don't necessarily follow their actions. Their main concern is the group/the other person.

Intuition can be perceived as "mystical" because it seems to come from nowhere. Like anything else, some will attempt to explain phenomena in a scientific way and others will seek to explain it in a spiritual way. Regardless of where it comes from, we are really talking about the same thing. A more scientific explanation would be that those with strong introverted intuition subconsciously track the same details that an introverted sensor tracks. It may be that we reach our conclusions slightly faster because we are not bogged down by the minutia of naming and cataloging all of the things we sense. If you have ever worked with software, you might think of this as "black box" versus "white box." White box exposes the internal working and details as Si does. Black box hides these details and exposes only the interface as Ni does.

Exactly. Ni is an unconscious cognitive process. Intuition for INFJs (and INTJs) manifests itself more as claircognizance rather than 'a gut feeling.' It's just, boom! There it is. You just know. It's a certainty. And yes, that may sound mystical, but this is just the nature of Ni. Ask any INTJ. Introverted intuition internalizes patterns; they're disassembled and reassembled within the unconscious mind. Extraverted intuition, on the other hand, discovers patterns as it builds on the big picture externally and therefore a little easier to recognize what's happening from the outside.

Extroverted sensing is the inferior function for INFJ. We are so busy getting lost in our own heads that we can often allow ourselves to become unaware of the world outside of us. Tertiary and inferior functions are often less developed and therefore display a hot and cold nature. This is why INTJs may be prone to hyper emotionalism. They don't pay "enough" attention to their feelings until they become overwhelming then suddenly they don't know what to do with them because they have not had the practice. Similarly someone with inferior extroverted sensing may be completely unaware that they are sitting on an ant mound until they are covered in ant bites. On the occasions that we do bring extroverted sensing into focus, we can be very particular. We may get grumpy from low blood sugar before realizing that we are even hungry but once thinking about it, we may overcompensate by demanding the best sushi in town.

Oh, I disagree about inferior Se making INFJs hyper-emotional. If anything, it makes them obsessive (or stalkerish).When you pair Fe + Se in any capacity, the focus on the self is off the table completely. What you might get instead is someone who is highly controlling of others and prone to 'mind-reading' (believing they know what the other person is thinking) or trying to mother them because they know them better than they know themselves. (Think of a really unhealthy ENFJ).

Those who have sensing as a dominant or auxiliary function tend to be more aware of the material things at all times and I think it is this that some commonly come to associate with superficiality. Those with extroverted sensing seem more likely to feel itchy in their clothing, be distracted by a flickering light in the background, or feel compelled to look at something that appreciate aesthetically. Because they use this function more frequently, they may be better at spotting physical details and may be less likely to jump from not caring at all to having impossible standards the way someone with tertiary or inferior Se may.

True.

I do think many become attached to the things they read in personality type descriptions and along with the tests I suspect may be why so many people mistype themselves. To me it would seem far more satisfying to understand the cognitive functions more thoroughly and then try to discern which of them you "default" to using most readily. You may be a sensor if your first response to everything is to take in the details of your physical surroundings. This doesn't mean it is more important to you or that you are more particular, it would only mean that it's what your brain innately prefers to focus on more than anything.

If you do think that extroverted sensing is one of your first go-to functions, then you may consider ISTP. ISTP has the same function stack as INFJ but in a different order.

INFJ - Ni/Fe/Ti/Se
ISTP - Ti/Se/Ni/Fe

Agreed.

 

[Mary Shelley]

Oh, I disagree about inferior Se making INFJs hyper-emotional.

I was saying the INTJ (Tertiary Fi) tends toward hyper-emotionalism, not INFJ. Tertiary and inferior functions are less developed and therefore the user has less control over them and may ignore them until becoming overwhelmed by them. All or nothing; hot and cold.

Similarly, INFJ (Inferior Se) may go from not even noticing something in the environment to having unrealistically high standards or perfectionism.

 

[Timmaigh!]

Oh, thanks for your answers. Did not expect such elaborate answers so soon.

Anyway, to specify somewhat closer, what i believe my preferred "modus operandi" is:

like you, i spend most of times inside my head, lol. That i guess makes me introverted and its about the only letter of MBTI code i can be entirely sure with i typed right. Additionally this makes me most of times actually oblivious to my environment. Unless i dont know i need to pay attention, i tend to miss small details. So no, i dont think Se is "high up my stack".

Yet there are certain things i usually wont miss, unless i am way too much preoccupied with something else, or stressed. Specifically, i tend to notice, whether something/someone is pretty, beautiful, aesthetically pleasing...call it as you wish. But if you think about it, how do i decide on that, clearly its not Se function, which says me something is pretty or not. Personally, i consider the sense for aestheticism to be highly intuitive thing, i mean it is not an exact science after all. You just know something is pretty or not, there is no objective justification to it, its all about your personal ideal of beauty/perfection. And as the article suggests, it makes sense those ideals are provided by introverted intuition. What else could it be? I dont think introverted sensation/thinking fit the bill here, based on their descriptions...but introverted feeling, maybe?

In general, what i think, this connection between art and intuition needs to be better explained in terms of MBTI I think the Ni is defined loosely enough to include various kind of intuitions, not just the one related to inferring emotions of other people.

 

[YourFavoriteNightmare]

Yes, PersonalityJunkie is a very well-informed site. The profiles go in-depth into the functions and there's specific articles for each one. Then pair articles comparing and contrasting functions, types, etc. If one is ever confused about type, if you can handle it, go there. That is one smart INTP...

 

[YourFavoriteNightmare]

INJs will swing from two extremes. Either they will fixate on external reality by trying to control it (trying to force their ideals on others) or being controlled by it (getting caught in sensual pleasures, hoarding and/or self-destruction), or they will reject external reality/be highly critical of it because they find it impossible to live up to their ideas.

Haha "reject external reality". Man, how would you do that? Oh, maybe psychosis and/or dissociation...but not really and only extremely. Could you provide an example otherwise?

 

[Elis]

Haha "reject external reality". Man, how would you do that? Oh, maybe psychosis and/or dissociation...Could you provide an example otherwise?

I'm going to go on a whim here and assume you've never defied gravity.

 

[sassafras]

Haha "reject external reality". Man, how would you do that? Oh, maybe psychosis and/or dissociation...Could you provide an example otherwise?

Why is this so absurd to you? Have you considered that one of the most primitive and common defense mechanisms is denial? Under that umbrella, you have minimization, projection, escapism, repression, procrastination, justification, self-deception, etc. Those are all a rejection of external reality, are they not? If you don't like what you're dealing with, or you find things too overwhelming, you may choose to re-frame it to something more pleasant. Or not think about it at all and retreat back into your head-space.

Though I would say that denial in the classic form is more true of Ni+Fe than Ni+Te, though Ni+Te will also feel the need to retreat when it's overwhelmed. Ni/Se likes to think it likes info. They're information hoarders. They like the idea of having lots of info at their fingertips. They'll amass lots and lots of books on a subject or bookmark articles to read later, but then, they don't really dive into it in any kind of detail because they don't need to. Sometimes this bites them on the ass, though, because they hate leaving things unfinished.

The other thing I was getting at was that Ni gets so wrapped up in its own head-space, it may neglect to notice what's going on about them for days. It's a form of disassociation, I suppose, but I'd be reluctant to put that label on it as most people associate that with a mental illness when it's not unusual for Ni to do that. They're also not fantasizing. They're just mulling over things. And they're not completely unaware. Sometimes they'll surprise themselves with the things they've taken in from 'the corner of their eye' without realizing it.

 

[YourFavoriteNightmare]

Why is this so absurd to you? Have you considered that one of the most primitive and common defense mechanisms is denial? Under that umbrella, you have minimization, projection, escapism, repression, procrastination, justification, self-deception, etc. Those are all a rejection of external reality, are they not? If you don't like what you're dealing with, or you find things too overwhelming, you may choose to re-frame it to something more pleasant. Or not think about it at all and retreat back into your head-space.

Though I would say that denial in the classic form is more true of Ni+Fe than Ni+Te, though Ni+Te will also feel the need to retreat when it's overwhelmed. Ni/Se likes to think it likes info. They're information hoarders. They like the idea of having lots of info at their fingertips. They'll amass lots and lots of books on a subject or bookmark articles to read later, but then, they don't really dive into it in any kind of detail because they don't need to. Sometimes this bites them on the ass, though, because they hate leaving things unfinished.

The other thing I was getting at was that Ni gets so wrapped up in its own head-space, it may neglect to notice what's going on about them for days. It's a form of disassociation, I suppose, but I'd be reluctant to put that label on it as most people associate that with a mental illness when it's not unusual for Ni to do that. They're also not fantasizing. They're just mulling over things. And they're not completely unaware. Sometimes they'll surprise themselves with the things they've taken in from 'the corner of their eye' without realizing it.

No, not that it was absurd but...funny. I won't go into explaining that. Defense mechanisms makes sense. I wouldn't have exactly called them a form of rejecting external reality before but I follow through with your reasoning. It's a way of not facing it, pushing it away, rejecting it, indeed. Appreciate the clarification.