Personality Types...Redefined?

[Chris82362]

Has anyone really looked at personality types? I mean really looked? I found a quite interesting pattern that hasn't been brought up at least on main websites. Before I begin, I would like to say that I'm not attempting to change the definition of a personality type, but found a different way of looking at it.

So to start we'll pick an infj personality type. Introverted intuition, extroverted feeling, introverted thinking, extroverted sensing. The first two mean the two which one gets his/her energy from, so they are put together at the front, introverted being the dominant. But is an introverts next step really extroversion? Is there really an example of someone who intuits, then feels, then thinks..in that order? Probably not. They may intuit, then think, then get an idea and extravert it. Or think of something, use their intuition, then extrovert it. Even sometimes they will extrovert feeling, then think, then intuit. yadda yadda. What i'm saying is, the order isn't the process of the person. An example would be a hermit, who spends nearly all his time intuiting and thinking, and hardly using his extroverted side at all. Normally mean people huh? Maybe they don't have enough energy to share... Also, the "tin man syndrome" who does not develop his feeling side too well.

Therefor, the infj could be seen, while completely on his own, as an NT, who occasionally extroverts Feeling. But essentially, the person, without the outside world is an NT. As we know, or may have slowly learned, an NT is the more desirable personality traits (not in all cases, and everyone really is equal in the end). Having the two best systems, NT, an infj hardly needs the outside world - with the exception of energy. This can be seen when infj's are completely oblivious to the outside world, and have to be told to follow the rules of the world. Also, they have been described as having highly individualized minds. Why? Because they themselves have composed an entire system for how everything works.

Before I go any further, I feel I need to take a step back and explain why I think NT is the best personality type to have. I now switch over to the intp, the thinker. The world we live in has been entirely thought up of people who have no problem thinking. The "system" the "man" has been comprised of intp's (who introvert thinking and extrovert intuition) who have no problem using their best traits in perfect harmony with the world. I hope I do not have to trace my steps back with that statement as I am only talking about people, not superhuman cyborgs.

Lets recap: INFJ really has NT introverted, which is essentially themselves. The system the world works under is comprised by thinkers (thank god). An INFJ has an extremely individualized mind, concurrent with having NT to themselves and therefor they do follow the extroverted world to a point, which allows them at times to be "completely oblivious of the outside world."

Now, having established that NT is really what comprises the INFJ, with the option of extroverting Feeling. I will now bring about the istj. INFJ's and ISTJ's do not understand eachother. They can work together, but where they come from is miles, even eons apart. They're both J's, so on the surface they don't appear to be complete opposites. But lets tear down the istj like I did with an infj and see what we find. SF on the inside, and TN on the outside. Could this mean that an ISTJ needs the outside world in order to succeed? I don't know, I'm an INFJ and I don't understand these SF properties. It does mean however, that the connection between NT and SF being unable to understand eachother seem more realistic and easily shown.

Questions, comments, concerns? Also, if you can throw away my idea in a few sentences please do so, I would enjoy seeing how t,his is not correct (if it is correct, my next post will change a few MBTI names, namely to Princes, Emperors, Oracles and Lords)

 

[Broken705]

So to start we'll pick an infj personality type. Introverted intuition, extroverted feeling, introverted thinking, extroverted sensing. The first two mean the two which one gets his/her energy from, so they are put together at the front, introverted being the dominant. But is an introverts next step really extroversion? Is there really an example of someone who intuits, then feels, then thinks..in that order? Probably not. They may intuit, then think, then get an idea and extravert it. Or think of something, use their intuition, then extrovert it. Even sometimes they will extrovert feeling, then think, then intuit. yadda yadda. What i'm saying is, the order isn't the process of the person. An example would be a hermit, who spends nearly all his time intuiting and thinking, and hardly using his extroverted side at all. Normally mean people huh? Maybe they don't have enough energy to share... Also, the "tin man syndrome" who does not develop his feeling side too well.

I don't think you have a good understanding of the functions. It sounds like you're saying:

-Ni= internalizing intuition
-Fe= externalizing feeling
-Ti= internalizing logic
-Se= externalizing sensing

I used to think that way when I started looking into the MBTI. But somehow I always knew that it just couldn't be that simple.

I still don't consider myself to be as knowledgable as I could be. But let me just share some of the things I've read about the INFJs top four functions.

****Note that I'm just listing the different things that I've read...I'm not claiming that any of this is true****



Ni

• Ideas
• Vision
• Thinks inside the box and subtracts
• Future oriented
• Past oriented
• Simplifies the complex
• Attracted to symbolism and metaphors
• Makes connections between things that aren't really connected
• Sees the big picture

Fe

• Empathy for others
• Wanting to help people
• Where the INFJ gets the vision of how things "should" be. (Is the vision from Ni or Fe? I don't know.)
• Not wanting to hurt people's feelings
• Being nice
• And most recently I've read, "focused on the group"

Ti

• Subjective logic
• Thinks it is being objective but is not
• INFJs develop it in their 20s/ Many, many INFJs that I've communicated with online claim to have a "develped Ti"
• Some seem to think that it gives the INFJ more of a backbone. (I liked the INFJ Typology thread that discussed this. I think it was "The role of Ti in INFJ"...or something like that)
• If an INFJ is stuck in his or head, it is often said that they are in an Ni-Ti loop. This is said to be unhealthy, and it is somehow connected with schizophrenia.

Se

• Focused on the "here and now"
• Focused on details in one's current surroundings
• If an INFJ has trouble focusing on living in the moment, then this is often blamed on having an inferior or underdeveloped Se

Lets recap: INFJ really has NT introverted, which is essentially themselves. The system the world works under is comprised by thinkers (thank god).

Your "Thank God" comment made me laugh.

Think of Martin Luther King. He was clearly an idealist. Many say he was an INFJ.

He had a dream of the way things "should" be, but that did not make him illogical or delusional.

Just because one is a feeler does not make the person an overemotional basketcase who goes from one emotion to the next without any reason whatsoever.

Now, having established that NT is really what comprises the INFJ, with the option of extroverting Feeling. I will now bring about the istj. INFJ's and ISTJ's do not understand eachother. They can work together, but where they come from is miles, even eons apart. They're both J's, so on the surface they don't appear to be complete opposites. But lets tear down the istj like I did with an infj and see what we find. SF on the inside, and TN on the outside. Could this mean that an ISTJ needs the outside world in order to succeed? I don't know, I'm an INFJ and I don't understand these SF properties. It does mean however, that the connection between NT and SF being unable to understand eachother seem more realistic and easily shown.

I don't really understand this paragraph, but let me just say something...

You posted this thread in search of feedback for your thoughts. I exist outside of your head. To you, I'm a part of the outside world.

I think we all need the outside world to succeed. I'm saying this as an introvert who has been known to space out often.

In my opinion,INFJs should- at the very least- share their thoughts. There's nothing wrong with a pursuit of personal knowledge, but if one just keeps it all to themselves, then what is the point?

I've read many introverts making comments about how they could go the rest of their lives without seeing another soul and be perfectly fine. I do not believe this.

Introverts are social beings. They need and want meaningful relationships. No man is an island.

 

[Orion]

Has anyone really looked at personality types? I mean really looked?

Yes.

Question: Do you realise that psychological types is only a very, very small part of Jung's oeuvre? Psychological type is the understanding of the dominant attitude and functions of the consciousness in an individual and subsequently the inferior processes in hierarchy into the unconscious? And that Analytical Psychology as a whole, is much more then cognitive processes and only a small part of what defines our behaviour and preferences? If you don't, keep that in mind and read some Jung.

So to start we'll pick an infj personality type. Introverted intuition, extroverted feeling, introverted thinking, extroverted sensing. The first two mean the two which one gets his/her energy from, so they are put together at the front, introverted being the dominant. But is an introverts next step really extroversion?

Do you understand Jung's theory in regards to the self regulating psyche? In analytical psychology, psychic energy is what keeps alive the unifying of opposites. You see, Jung realised that the unification of our preferences with our least developed or desirable processes and habits was the key to individuation- becoming a better, more well rounded, exceptional person.

Introversion needs extroversion. Just as judging needs perceiving. In other words, too much of anything is never good. A personality with a dominant preference for an introverted attitude of consciousness, in healthy individuals, places a psychically balancing imperative on extroversion. If you don't understand this basic tenet of Jungian thought then you aren't gonna get very far, are you?

Is there really an example of someone who intuits, then feels, then thinks..in that order? Probably not. They may intuit, then think, then get an idea and extravert it. Or think of something, use their intuition, then extrovert it. Even sometimes they will extrovert feeling, then think, then intuit. yadda yadda. What i'm saying is, the order isn't the process of the person. An example would be a hermit, who spends nearly all his time intuiting and thinking, and hardly using his extroverted side at all. Normally mean people huh? Maybe they don't have enough energy to share... Also, the "tin man syndrome" who does not develop his feeling side too well.

You are thinking, like many, in very behaviouristic terms. Jungian cognitive functions are not like cognitive processes as we define them today i.e cognitive faculties of the brain such as memory, emotion etc.

Jungian cognitive processes is a orientation of the consciousness. The consciousness is no more definable then your preference for cats over dogs or your preference over the colour red over blue. What Jung was identifying, was the indefinable differences between how people preferred to orientate themselves in line with their personality. Barring chemical, neurological, biological, physiological and cognitive differences, the human personality is something, so far, that the modern microscope or brain scan cannot define. Jungian functions are not definable skill sets, behaviours, ritual or thought processes- those are all cognition of the brain as understood today. It so important that you understand the definition between the two.

Therefor, the infj could be seen, while completely on his own, as an NT, who occasionally extroverts Feeling.

Again sentences like this reveal that you are missign the point entirely. What does it mean to "occasionally extroverts Feeling?" in your opinion? How does that work?

What you are describing is the blockage of psychic energy to a natural equilibrium of Pi > Je functions, necessary for healthy perspective. I imagine you are taking your own preference for heavy Ti use and the regression of Fe to argue how NT are superior to NF's. If that's your personal opinion, then fair play. If you can get through life as a healthy, happy person- more power to you. However for many INFJ's that road is very dangerous and psychologically damaging, for reasons that must seem obvious.

But essentially, the person, without the outside world is an NT. As we know, or may have slowly learned, an NT is the more desirable personality traits (not in all cases, and everyone really is equal in the end). Having the two best systems, NT, an infj hardly needs the outside world - with the exception of energy. This can be seen when infj's are completely oblivious to the outside world, and have to be told to follow the rules of the world. Also, they have been described as having highly individualized minds. Why? Because they themselves have composed an entire system for how everything works.

I think you've gone a bit crackers mate.

The "system" the "man" has been comprised of intp's (who introvert thinking and extrovert intuition) who have no problem using their best traits in perfect harmony with the world.

And i'm guessing you think the system as it is, is a good thing? Is functional and serves people for their benefit? Pah!

Before I go any further, I feel I need to take a step back and explain why I think NT is the best personality type to have. I now switch over to the intp, the thinker. The world we live in has been entirely thought up of people who have no problem thinking.

I'm gonna say it, this pisses me off the most out of everything you've said. You've just exemplified why the world is such a fucked place!

I mean, how can you be so blind? And narrow minded? Do you even realise, that the world is highly dysfunctional in a lot of ways? Huge, almost incomprehensible levels of injustice, unfairness, cruelty, imbalance, selfishness and greed is what makes the economy run. And you've crystallized in one paragraph, without even knowing, why that is: lack of feeling or archetypal influence in the collective unconscious.

Remember what i said about the self regulating psyche? Let's blow that up large to imagine the world as one big psyche. What's lacking in the picture? As you've testified, the world is lead by Fe inferiors. The world is dominated by Si and significant lack of NF perspective. Jung believed balance and internal harmony was the only way to be exceptional. To me it looks as if the whole of the worlds problems are clear: lack of individuation, lack of growth and one sidedness. All of which, I assume you would agree, would result in a very unhealthy individual. Can you see the parallels?

Lets recap: INFJ really has NT introverted, which is essentially themselves.

Woah, thanks to your amazing insights, I'm going to look at myself in completely different light!

The system the world works under is comprised by thinkers (thank god).

I assure you, it's nothing to do with thinkers or feelers. It's something far more mundane then that: narrow-mindedness, obliviousness, laziness and selfishness. The irony is, this thread represents what it means to have suppressed Fe and it ain't pretty.

Now, having established that NT is really what comprises the INFJ, with the option of extroverting Feeling. I will now bring about the istj. INFJ's and ISTJ's do not understand eachother. They can work together, but where they come from is miles, even eons apart. They're both J's, so on the surface they don't appear to be complete opposites. But lets tear down the istj like I did with an infj and see what we find. SF on the inside, and TN on the outside. Could this mean that an ISTJ needs the outside world in order to succeed? I don't know, I'm an INFJ and I don't understand these SF properties. It does mean however, that the connection between NT and SF being unable to understand eachother seem more realistic and easily shown.

Questions, comments, concerns? Also, if you can throw away my idea in a few sentences please do so, I would enjoy seeing how t,his is not correct (if it is correct, my next post will change a few MBTI names, namely to Princes, Emperors, Oracles and Lords)

...

 

[Majesty]

What Orion said is true.

You don't use Ni when writing a poem that doesn't make sense and with a billion hidden meanings.
Ni is the way you see the world. (Which may lead you to writing some poems that don't make sense and with a billion hidden meanings)

This is why an INFJ can't have Ne. You can't see the world in two different ways that conflict each other.


As for the NT worship, you're 100% right. We're awesome. Continue plz

 

[Broken705]

What Orion said is true.

You don't use Ni when writing a poem that doesn't make sense and with a billion hidden meanings.
Ni is the way you see the world. (Which may lead you to writing some poems that don't make sense and with a billion hidden meanings)

This is why an INFJ can't have Ne. You can't see the world in two different ways that conflict each other.


As for the NT worship, you're 100% right. We're awesome. Continue plz

Yeah, from my understanding, Ni "sees the box" or is "about the box". Whereas Ne is outside of the box, and would be more creative, I suppose.

Ni is how INFJs can see things from different perspectives, although I think that mine has been off about a lot of things until recently.

It's driving me crazy! :rant:

These days, if someone tells me that I'm wrong about something, I will retreat back inside my head and try to change my perspective. I keep second guessing myself, because I used to jump to conclusions and always think that I'm right. And now, I realize this and want to stop it.

Is this an Ni-Ti loop? I don't know. It might be. If it is, I guess that's bad, and I'm going insane, which sounds about right.

 

[Chris82362]

Yes.

Question: Do you realise that psychological types is only a very, very small part of Jung's oeuvre? Psychological type is the understanding of the dominant attitude and functions of the consciousness in an individual and subsequently the inferior processes in hierarchy into the unconscious? And that Analytical Psychology as a whole, is much more then cognitive processes and only a small part of what defines our behaviour and preferences? If you don't, keep that in mind and read some Jung.



Do you understand Jung's theory in regards to the self regulating psyche? In analytical psychology, psychic energy is what keeps alive the unifying of opposites. You see, Jung realised that the unification of our preferences with our least developed or desirable processes and habits was the key to individuation- becoming a better, more well rounded, exceptional person.

Introversion needs extroversion. Just as judging needs perceiving. In other words, too much of anything is never good. A personality with a dominant preference for an introverted attitude of consciousness, in healthy individuals, places a psychically balancing imperative on extroversion. If you don't understand this basic tenet of Jungian thought then you aren't gonna get very far, are you?



You are thinking, like many, in very behaviouristic terms. Jungian cognitive functions are not like cognitive processes as we define them today i.e cognitive faculties of the brain such as memory, emotion etc.

Jungian cognitive processes is a orientation of the consciousness. The consciousness is no more definable then your preference for cats over dogs or your preference over the colour red over blue. What Jung was identifying, was the indefinable differences between how people preferred to orientate themselves in line with their personality. Barring chemical, neurological, biological, physiological and cognitive differences, the human personality is something, so far, that the modern microscope or brain scan cannot define. Jungian functions are not definable skill sets, behaviours, ritual or thought processes- those are all cognition of the brain as understood today. It so important that you understand the definition between the two.



Again sentences like this reveal that you are missign the point entirely. What does it mean to "occasionally extroverts Feeling?" in your opinion? How does that work?

What you are describing is the blockage of psychic energy to a natural equilibrium of Pi > Je functions, necessary for healthy perspective. I imagine you are taking your own preference for heavy Ti use and the regression of Fe to argue how NT are superior to NF's. If that's your personal opinion, then fair play. If you can get through life as a healthy, happy person- more power to you. However for many INFJ's that road is very dangerous and psychologically damaging, for reasons that must seem obvious.



I think you've gone a bit crackers mate.



And i'm guessing you think the system as it is, is a good thing? Is functional and serves people for their benefit? Pah!



I'm gonna say it, this pisses me off the most out of everything you've said. You've just exemplified why the world is such a fucked place!

I mean, how can you be so blind? And narrow minded? Do you even realise, that the world is highly dysfunctional in a lot of ways? Huge, almost incomprehensible levels of injustice, unfairness, cruelty, imbalance, selfishness and greed is what makes the economy run. And you've crystallized in one paragraph, without even knowing, why that is: lack of feeling or archetypal influence in the collective unconscious.

Remember what i said about the self regulating psyche? Let's blow that up large to imagine the world as one big psyche. What's lacking in the picture? As you've testified, the world is lead by Fe inferiors. The world is dominated by Si and significant lack of NF perspective. Jung believed balance and internal harmony was the only way to be exceptional. To me it looks as if the whole of the worlds problems are clear: lack of individuation, lack of growth and one sidedness. All of which, I assume you would agree, would result in a very unhealthy individual. Can you see the parallels?



Woah, thanks to your amazing insights, I'm going to look at myself in completely different light!



I assure you, it's nothing to do with thinkers or feelers. It's something far more mundane then that: narrow-mindedness, obliviousness, laziness and selfishness. The irony is, this thread represents what it means to have suppressed Fe and it ain't pretty.



...

In your attempt to dissect and dissuade my argument piece by piece, i shall respond in the same manner.
Answer to question:
I was not merely looking to Jung as the know all about psychology, and in fact I was only pointing out this one aspect, personality types. Yes I do realize how small of an aspect personality types are in the world of psychology, in fact, after 3 years at a university we have yet to acknowledge them as anything more than a joke. The second question is not a question, mind you. And yes, Cognitive psychology is only one field studied, others including Behavior psychology and Industrial Psychology.

Dissection number 2:
No again I have not researched Jung's theories. Yes I do realize that unification of these processes, almost seen as a goal perhaps, leads to a healthier person. "Mean people huh?" was directed towards people who have an imbalance in their personality, ie, are more introverted and do not use the other processes nearly enough.

#3:
Unfortunately, for me to describe processes in their pre-action form (thoughts, unconscious or otherwise) would be difficult. I was measuring my argument with easily pictured references, not requiring one to delve into the mind much at all. As you know, consciousness is impossible to place in anything except the human mind. This "orientation of the consciousness" as you called it, could be called something else. A pattern. How many patterns are there? 16. Could not this pattern be used to predict something, unless otherwise be considered worthless?

I'm not sure what you mean, you may need to clarify this next piece. "[FONT=&quot]It so important that you understand the definition between the two." [/FONT]The personality types are a way to further define people. That's the basic precept of psychology, to take already superfluous events and define them into words. That's practically what mathematics is too, "An easy way to do things that would be laborious, otherwise" to quote Richard Feynman. Its just simplifying. I think personality types are more intriguing than you give them credit for. I believe they do define something, and to me, that is easier to view than otherwise seen.

#4:
Ahem, "occasionally extroverts Feeling" would be a behavior act, but it looks something like this: studying all day and night for months, then deciding to go out with friends. In my opinion, of course.

How quaint of you to use such a perfect word to describe such a sentence, "[FONT=&quot]. I imagine you are taking your own preference for heavy Ti use and the regression of Fe to argue how NT are superior to NF's." Imagine, ahhhh so so funny you would use that word when you take your perspective to attack mine. I don't have what I would say heavy Ti use, but when I was a kid my dad pushed me a lot in school..so I'd say I'm blessed with it. Anyway basically you're imagining, a word so perfectly used because it says that you aren't using a lot of hardcore thinking, that MY OWN PREFERENCE (enter unconscious fear, forewarning attack) is being used to argue logic (NT) over feeling (NF). There's a lot of self defense in that sentence, sir, as shown by your recovery saying "then fair play." Yes I know imbalance is not harmonious, thank you. But did you ever consider that some people have more of one thing then the other? Like more thinking between INFJ's. As you said, its so impossibly undefinable because everyone's sooo different!

#5
I believe this is where you let your subjectivity get the best of you. You deviated from thoughtful (read: critical) advice. You weren't following my essay from the beginning, you were just picking it apart and now you're bored. Like me.
[/FONT]

 

[Chris82362]

Yeah, from my understanding, Ni "sees the box" or is "about the box". Whereas Ne is outside of the box, and would be more creative, I suppose.

Ni is how INFJs can see things from different perspectives, although I think that mine has been off about a lot of things until recently.

It's driving me crazy! :rant:

These days, if someone tells me that I'm wrong about something, I will retreat back inside my head and try to change my perspective. I keep second guessing myself, because I used to jump to conclusions and always think that I'm right. And now, I realize this and want to stop it.

Is this an Ni-Ti loop? I don't know. It might be. If it is, I guess that's bad, and I'm going insane, which sounds about right.

This "Ni-Ti loop" is really just the two processes fighting eachother. Ni kind of figures out what might happen..and thinking is just awesome- like a new way of doing things.
Yeah Ne is really cool. My INFP friend can just shout out wisdom and he's always crazy good at it. He can also solve those "out of the box" problems. One time my friends and I came up with a zombie escape scheme and after hours of talking about it we told him and within 2 min he shouted "Casinos" which was better than 4 roommates' plans combined.

 

[Chris82362]

What Orion said is true.

You don't use Ni when writing a poem that doesn't make sense and with a billion hidden meanings.
Ni is the way you see the world. (Which may lead you to writing some poems that don't make sense and with a billion hidden meanings)

This is why an INFJ can't have Ne. You can't see the world in two different ways that conflict each other.


As for the NT worship, you're 100% right. We're awesome. Continue plz

Yes I do love ENTP's. So what is a lot of Ne like? I've always wanted to know. I assume ENFP's are like artists and that they see the world completely differently than anyone...must be weird grounded with Ti.