Religion and logic

J

jessvj

Newbie
MBTI
INFJ
I'm new, but might as well introduce myself, I recently learned I'm an INFJ this past year, I'm Catholic, and I'm 16, but back to my topic, Going through my Junior year in high school, I've recently taken an AP Biology course, which I passed with flying colors, but at the cost of realizing that the world around me has changed significantly. I started my ministry age 5 in kindergarten and received my confirmation last year, and I've been happy since, until recently one day when I was just thinking in my head if there a really is a God, after taking that AP Course I look at the world differently and think logically how could there be one despite all the evidence against the possibility of there actually being a God. We have fossils and evidence of the Earth being more than 6 Billion years old. I am at a crossroads right now trying to believe there is a God, but it seems more and more I am disappointed. In the answers the church has given me, as well as friends, but they all say the same thing, that "God is testing me", which I also find hard to believe, why would he also hurt the world and its people, despite my knowledge gained from my ministry, things just don't make sense. I am looking into atheism, but I haven't told my family yet. Just looking at the forums, I can see that there is a community here who can really help others.
 
Last edited:
jessvj said:
I'm new, but might as well introduce myself, I recently learned I'm an INFJ this past year, I'm Catholic, and I'm 16, but back to my topic, Going through my Junior year in high school, I've recently taken an AP Biology course, which I passed with flying colors, but at the cost of realizing that the world around me has changed significantly. I started my ministry age 5 in kindergarten and received my confirmation last year, and I've been happy since, until recently one day when I was just thinking in my head if there a really is a God, after taking that AP Course I look at the world differently and think logically how could there be one despite all the evidence against the possibility of there actually being a God. We have fossils and evidence of the Earth being more than 6 Billion years old. I am at a crossroads right now trying to believe there is a God, but it seems more and more I am disappointed. In the answers the church has given me, as well as friends, but they all say the same thing, that "God is testing me", which I also find hard to believe, why would he also hurt the world and its people, despite my knowledge gained from my ministry, things just don't make sense. I am looking into atheism, but I haven't told my family yet. Just looking at the forums, I can see that there is a community here who can really help others.
Click to expand...

Public school is very secular, it can be hard for a Christian to come to terms with a lot of things taught.

Do some study outside of school, books like "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel put forth excelent arguments.

And don't be onesided I don't agree with Dawkins, but you need to here what he has to say. Your going to encounter alot of people whom push views on you, no matter what it is religous, political or otherwise. You need to get all the info.

As for a bit of encouraging, the world doesn't have to be 6 Billion years old for there to be a God. I was always amazed(and slightly confused) how people came to this number.

and just a quick question how is God hurting the world to help you?
 
jessvj said:
I'm new, but might as well introduce myself, I recently learned I'm an INFJ this past year, I'm Catholic, and I'm 16, but back to my topic, Going through my Junior year in high school, I've recently taken an AP Biology course, which I passed with flying colors, but at the cost of realizing that the world around me has changed significantly. I started my ministry age 5 in kindergarten and received my confirmation last year, and I've been happy since, until recently one day when I was just thinking in my head if there a really is a God, after taking that AP Course I look at the world differently and think logically how could there be one despite all the evidence against the possibility of there actually being a God. We have fossils and evidence of the Earth being more than 6 Billion years old. I am at a crossroads right now trying to believe there is a God, but it seems more and more I am disappointed. In the answers the church has given me, as well as friends, but they all say the same thing, that "God is testing me", which I also find hard to believe, why would he also hurt the world and its people, despite my knowledge gained from my ministry, things just don't make sense. I am looking into atheism, but I haven't told my family yet. Just looking at the forums, I can see that there is a community here who can really help others.
Click to expand...

Religion isn't very logical. This isn't bad, but there is a reason that a synonym for religion is faith. There isn't much evidence for religion, and many of the beliefs about the age of the world and other similar origins beliefs have vast scientific evidence against them.

Don't give up on your religion, just look deeper. I found that there are many ways that religion and science can co-exist. You don't need to pick one or the other, and you can still be a reasonably logical religious person whom also believes in the validity of science.

Religion and science are just two different ways of explaining the same thing, and neither of them can be "proven" correct. Just find the facts, and you'll find a balance between the two.
 
I'm a logical christian.

I like christianity because you can't prove the acutal existence of god by using science alone. It just makes it that much more complex and fascinating.
About fossils and the earths age, because God is God, God might as well as pre aged everything when God went on a creation spree.
I mean, the way how I see it is that God created Adam as a man and Eve as a woman, so I can't see any reason why God couldn't pre age the earth and stars. Just a theory I have floating around in the back of my head.
So like the Big bang, the belief in God requires faith.
 
Last edited:
Barnabas said:
Public school is very secular, it can be hard for a Christian to come to terms with a lot of things taught.
Click to expand...

Secular just means without preference to any religion. If you can't find god for yourself within a secular system then surely that speaks volumes. Otherwise it's like looking for an unbiased argument in a biased text.
 
88chaz88 said:
Secular just means without preference to any religion. If you can't find god for yourself within a secular system then surely that speaks volumes. Otherwise it's like looking for an unbiased argument in a biased text.
Click to expand...

Secular generaly means atheistic, both in teaching and enviromentaly. It would be different if all religions were represented, or even religions common to the population. Seriously If a student can get a hold of Dawkins from his/her school library but can't find Lewis or any other religious liturature I think something may leaning one way over the other.

Edit:

I'm not saying that we should bring religious education into a biology class. But would a religious education class be to much to ask for?
 
Last edited:
Barnabas said:
Secular generaly means atheistic, both in teaching and enviromentaly. It would be different if all religions were represented, or even religions common to the population. Seriously If a student can get a hold of Dawkins from his/her school library but can't find Lewis or any other religious liturature I think something may leaning one way over the other.

Edit:

I'm not saying that we should bring religious education into a biology class. But would a religious education class be to much to ask for?
Click to expand...

I don't know how it is over in the states but religious education has always been part of the curriculum here. It does however look at things from a factual view, as in this group believes this and this group believes that.

I personally think that taking the atheist approach in society is the way forward, and I'm middle of the road when it comes to there being a god or not. I think that you can believe in a god but as soon as you take the "god did it" approach then you leave out all other possibility. Of course I'm not saying that religion impedes science at all, some of the best scientists throughout history were devout Muslims, but assuming we know something we don't is the worst thing you can do.

You can find god within a secular society. We know, or at least have a very strong idea, that the universe started from something. This is the big bang. Now as both time and space began then whatever started it all has to be beyond these constraints, and beyond human comprehension. As for whatever started everything being intelligent, that could be a possibilty, considering the sheer fluke that is intelligent life on this planet.

Now when you look at the Bible and any other religious text as a history book, that's when you have it all wrong. We have evidence that absolutely refutes what is told in these texts. What they do provide however, is a moral code of how to live one's life.

That is how you can be Christian in a modern society.

~Chaz (a militant agnostic)
 
agree with chaz!

my personal beliefs are completely atheistic but i've always wondered how anyone can get so caught up on one particular religious text to the exclusion of all others. if there is a god, maybe the bible is just one of many equally valid various reflections of him or her, however flawed and imperfectly formed by human hands.
 
You are learning to question the cages that have been built around your powerful mind thats good.

Detach yourself from the bible it isnt doing you any good, if you want to discover a personal god you need to do it by searching your soul, not by following an instructional manual. If god loves you enough to allow you to question, then question.

I will tell you one thing, being raised catholic myself, god is real, maybe not some old guy sitting in some cloud, but we are all connected, even at our most basically elements, we are energy soup. Where does this intelligence and energy come from? That's where you need to look for god.
 
Billy said:
... but we are all connected, even at our most basically elements, we are energy soup. Where does this intelligence and energy come from? That's where you need to look for god.
Click to expand...
The way of the Jedi is the true way!!!
;D
Though honestly, that reminded me of the force. Which in the end could be possible, just no fun with being able to control it like jedi.
 
Disclaimer: I don't see anything wrong with religion (only what people do in it's name) and I fully respect everyones right to their own opinion but I'm not going to pull any punches here. So i apologose in advance

The bible and most if not all other religions have been proven to be incorrect numerous times over. If you want logic you can't really believe in any religion that man has invented.

Look at Hotkebabs answer to the the apparent age of things. Religious logic is designed to make whatever evidence there is fit their existing beliefs. Science and religion don't mix. religion goes against the fundemental priciples of science i.e. evidence based. (sorry Hotkebab)

If you get your opinions from a single book and then twist all the external evidence in an illogical way to fit what the book says, how can this be a scientific approach. Notions like "faith" and "god is testing us" are simpy ways to ignore the evidence and logic.

I don't know if god exists. I AM NOT an atheist. There is no evidence that god does not exist. There is only evidence that god as decribed in the bible and othere texts does not exist.

It seems likely that there is a creator of some kind. Whether there is an afterlife is an entirely different question and again, there is no evidence either way.

If you are trying to take the logical approach, you cannot have strong beliefs for or against the existence of god. However, christianity and other man made religions have been conclusively proven to be false
 
Last edited:
Okay to enhanc my post and follow on from PJ's point. For the "god is testing us" argument; if god gave you a logical mind, why would he test you from using it?

Answers in 500 words or less please.
 
I love the whole let's make truth claims that arn't true.

What evidence do you have that God doesn't exist? What evidence do you have that the Bible is false?
 
Barnabas said:
I love the whole let's make truth claims that arn't true.

What evidence do you have that God doesn't exist? What evidence do you have that the Bible is false?
Click to expand...

How about evolution, carbon dating, layers of sediment proven to be billions of years old, the fact that light coming from far off galaxies is red shifted, the fact that it takes millions of years to create some elements etc

But all this and more aside. How about the complete lack of any evidence of any kind. The bible is not evidence. anyone can write a book

Edit:

Adam and eve - proven to be false

God created the world in seven days - proven to be false
 
Last edited:
Barnabas said:
I love the whole let's make truth claims that arn't true.
QUOTE]

Do you have an example of one of us claiming someothing to be true that you can prove isn't?

BTW lets keep this friendly. I am happy for this to get heated so long as we're still buddies afterwards
Click to expand...
 
Barnabas said:
I love the whole let's make truth claims that arn't true.

What evidence do you have that God doesn't exist?
Click to expand...

I love the whole "let's make arguments that don't even exist". Nobody claimed god doesn't exist. Try again.

Barnabas said:
What evidence do you have that the Bible is false?
Click to expand...

The Earth has been carbon dated to be 3 billion years old, not six thousand. The universe has even been dated to be around 13 billion years old using light signatures. Fossils exist of creatures that existed millions of years ago. Yes, there are holes in the theory of evolution but there's far more evidence for it than intelligent design.

God is still a plausible theory but creationism is a load of bollocks I'm afraid.

Anyway is god creating the Earth and everything within 7 days really more fantastic than setting up a massive system of universal laws that makes intelligent life on this planet even though the probability of that happening is so large there isn't even enough particles on our planet to write the number down?
 
http://creation.com/

Leave the weak arguments you have been given by your church and research into stronger stuff. And at the same time compare it to Dawkins get a balanced shot at finding the truth.

Spoilers: They both suck and are full of holes. You'll need to think for yourself.
 
jessvj said:
I'm new, but might as well introduce myself, I recently learned I'm an INFJ this past year, I'm Catholic, and I'm 16, but back to my topic, Going through my Junior year in high school, I've recently taken an AP Biology course, which I passed with flying colors, but at the cost of realizing that the world around me has changed significantly. I started my ministry age 5 in kindergarten and received my confirmation last year, and I've been happy since, until recently one day when I was just thinking in my head if there a really is a God, after taking that AP Course I look at the world differently and think logically how could there be one despite all the evidence against the possibility of there actually being a God. We have fossils and evidence of the Earth being more than 6 Billion years old. I am at a crossroads right now trying to believe there is a God, but it seems more and more I am disappointed. In the answers the church has given me, as well as friends, but they all say the same thing, that "God is testing me", which I also find hard to believe, why would he also hurt the world and its people, despite my knowledge gained from my ministry, things just don't make sense. I am looking into atheism, but I haven't told my family yet. Just looking at the forums, I can see that there is a community here who can really help others.
Click to expand...

Hello jessvj!

I'm believe the earth is 6 billion years old and that species evolve and I'm still a Christian. You do not have to drop your Christianity in order to believe in evolution, YEC/OEC/ID is not a requirement to be a Christian. I hope this helps!
 
Tactical Panda said:
http://creation.com/

Leave the weak arguments you have been given by your church and research into stronger stuff. And at the same time compare it to Dawkins get a balanced shot at finding the truth.

Spoilers: They both suck and are full of holes. You'll need to think for yourself.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately Dawkins used to champion the idea of free thought. Now he just seems to run around shouting "God doesn't exist, trust me I'm a scientist!" The old dude has got addled somewhere.

I'm with Sagan when he stated "an atheist would have to know more than I do."
 
88chaz88 said:
The Earth has been carbon dated to be 3 billion years old, not six thousand. The universe has even been dated to be around 13 billion years old using light signatures. Fossils exist of creatures that existed millions of years ago. Yes, there are holes in the theory of evolution but there's far more evidence for it than intelligent design.
Click to expand...

You are aware that Augustine did not take the literal view of Genesis, right? Here is a quote by him upon this very topic:

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top