The Four Institutions

[Satya]

The way I see it, within just about any society there exists four institutions which fight for the political power. These are the church, the state, the market, and the sciences.

The church is the religious organizations within the society. They are the moral authority within the society. They can span from a shaman in a primitive tribe to a giant bureaucracy like the Roman Catholic Church of modern society. The church views individuals in terms of virtue and sin.

The state is the legal authority within the society. They can span from a chief in a primitive tribe to a Constitutional Republic of modern society. The state views individuals in terms of being just or criminal.

The market is the financial authority within society. It can span from the traders of primitive tribes to Wall Street Banks of modern society. The market views individuals in terms of being fair or deceptive.

The sciences are the institutions of learning and advancement. They are the medicinal authority in society. They can span from the herbalists of primitive tribes to the evolutionary biologists of modern society. The sciences views individuals in terms of being healthy and sick.

My question for you is which of these institutions should have the most political power over society? Which should have the least? And why do you feel that way?

 

[Quinlan]

The market is the financial authority within society. It can span from the traders of primitive tribes to Wall Street Banks of modern society. The market views individuals in terms of being productive/profitable or unproductive/unprofitable.

Fixed ^

I will decide where political power should be applied based on what produces the greatest quality of life, for the greatest nummber of citizens.

Religion- Doesn't get results and questionable moral basis.
State- Average results and average moral basis depending on the governing system.
Market- Reasonable results and but little moral basis without state regulation.
Science- Excellent results and questionable morality.

So;

Science- 40%
State- 34.5%
Market-25%
Religion-0.5%

 

[just me]

Ask a politician and the answer is state.
etc.

 

[Satya]

Ask a politician and the answer is state.
etc.

You are quite mistaken. For example, if I were to ask a Libertarian politician, then he would not advocate the state. Occupation does not dictate political beliefs.

Which institution do you feel should have the most political power?

 

[Satya]

Fixed ^

I will decide where political power should be applied based on what produces the greatest quality of life, for the greatest nummber of citizens.

Religion- Doesn't get results and questionable moral basis.
State- Average results and average moral basis depending on the governing system.
Market- Reasonable results and but little moral basis without state regulation.
Science- Excellent results and questionable morality.

So;

Science- 40%
State- 34.5%
Market-25%
Religion-0.5%

Very interesting method.

 

[Quinlan]

What do you think of my "productive/profitable or unproductive/unprofitable" adjustment, accurate?

 

[Quinlan]

My method also depends on the assumption that a healthy society is based on good results (Physical and emotional wellbeing of the citizens) tempered by a morality acceptable to most members.

 

[just me]

I so do not want to become involved in this tonight. I am trying to learn Fe.
I will say it becomes a politician to stand behind his government or the state.
There are places primitive in this world where people could lose their heads if they were to think about giving more power to anything but state....modern day governments, for example. State has a constitution to go by and laws to be met. Saying the church, and you know how deeply I feel towards my beliefs I have learned not to call religion here, or any other entity should have more power could be borderline problematic and I will not go there. People are jailed for thinking things otherwise in different parts of the world. However,
I have to admit in some primitive places that may still exist, the medicine man holds a lot of clout.
not finished yet, so please wait.....
The Church gets very involved in government as they represent their people and the peoples' ideals. The Church is funded by donations mostly.
The state is funded by taxes mostly. The Church may even ask for donations, but the State takes money in the form of taxation. Science gets funded by both. NASA is my favorite science project, but the medical field is something society needs or dies without. Having a say in what goes on in the government is inevitable by almost any entity that is needed. For me to say state should have less say so could be a jail sentence down the road, so I will not go there and most smart politicians will not, either. I have never known a Libertarian and know nothing about them.

 

[Wyote]

Church should hold the most power, but "church" in terms of what people associate it with... no. The ideologies of church establishments is what I speak of. Those who advocate virtue first and foremost should hold power.

 

[Satya]

I so do not want to become involved in this tonight. I am trying to learn Fe.

If you didn't want to "become involved in this tonight" then why are you even posting in this thread? It seems to me you have an ulterior motive.

I will say it becomes a politician to stand behind his government or the state.

Some politicians, not all.

There are places primitive in this world where people could lose their heads if they were to think about giving more power to anything but state....modern day governments, for example. State has a constitution to go by and laws to be met. Saying the church, and you know how deeply I feel towards my beliefs I have learned not to call religion here, or any other entity should have more power could be borderline problematic and I will not go there. People are jailed for thinking things otherwise in different parts of the world. However,
I have to admit in some primitive places that may still exist, the medicine man holds a lot of clout.
not finished yet, so please wait.....

I'm not really sure where you are going with this. It sounds like you feel the church should hold the most power.

 

[just me]

Church should hold the most power, but "church" in terms of what people associate it with... no. The ideologies of church establishments is what I speak of. Those who advocate virtue first and foremost should hold power.

If by "those" you mean individuals, I totally agree. Someone that will do what is best for everyone or most everyone all the time with no shortcomings is hard to find, though.

 

[Satya]

What do you think of my "productive/profitable or unproductive/unprofitable" adjustment, accurate?

Probably more so than my description.

My method also depends on the assumption that a healthy society is based on good results (Physical and emotional wellbeing of the citizens) tempered by a morality acceptable to most members.

Yes, it says a lot about your value system. That is kind of what I was trying to get at with this exercise.

 

[Satya]

Church should hold the most power, but "church" in terms of what people associate it with... no. The ideologies of church establishments is what I speak of. Those who advocate virtue first and foremost should hold power.

Here is the issue with this thought...

Those who find productivity to be a virtue will advocate the market, those who find justice to be a virtue will advocate the state, those who find advancement to be a virtue will advocate the sciences, and those who find living in accordance with a holy scripture to be a virtue will advocate the church.

Of the institutions as I defined them, which do you feel should hold the most power?

 

[mayflow]

The way I see it, within just about any society there exists four institutions which fight for the political power. These are the church, the state, the market, and the sciences.

The church is the religious organizations within the society. They are the moral authority within the society. They can span from a shaman in a primitive tribe to a giant bureaucracy like the Roman Catholic Church of modern society. The church views individuals in terms of virtue and sin.

The state is the legal authority within the society. They can span from a chief in a primitive tribe to a Constitutional Republic of modern society. The state views individuals in terms of being just or criminal.

The market is the financial authority within society. It can span from the traders of primitive tribes to Wall Street Banks of modern society. The market views individuals in terms of being fair or deceptive.

The sciences are the institutions of learning and advancement. They are the medicinal authority in society. They can span from the herbalists of primitive tribes to the evolutionary biologists of modern society. The sciences views individuals in terms of being healthy and sick.

My question for you is which of these institutions should have the most political power over society? Which should have the least? And why do you feel that way?

Your questions are based on you pre-suppositions. It's a bit like Einstein once said something to the effect that the oucome of an experiment was dependent on what the experimenter's were looking for. I like this quatrain of thought forms a little bit more...

http://forum.infjs.com/showthread.php?t=1185

 

[just me]

No other motives intended here. I vote for a person, not a political party.
That said, my choice if I were to make one could change.

 

[Satya]

Your questions are based on you pre-suppositions. It's a bit like Einstein once said something to the effect that the oucome of an experiment was dependent on what the experimenter's were looking for. I like this quatrain of thought forms a little bit more...

http://forum.infjs.com/showthread.php?t=1185

To the contrary, with any philosophical question one must first define the terms. The four institutions I defined are observable sociological phenomenon.

Of the four institutions that I defined who do you feel should hold the most power?

 

[Satya]

No other motives intended here. I vote for a person, not a political party.
That said, my choice if I were to make one could change.

This thread has nothing to do with political parties.

 

[mayflow]

To the contrary, with any philosophical question one must first define the terms. The four institutions I defined are observable sociological phenomenon.

Of the four institutions that I defined who do you feel should hold the most power?

None of them. They are your postulations, not mine. To me you could just have well asked me if I like ford trucks more than the stock market. You create concepts in your mind and then want to get me or whomever to discuss them, but they are your concepts, and they are only concepts that you create, and that is all they are. Convince me what value I could find in buying into your own self created concepts and discussing them?

 

[TenorKite]

Religion- Doesn't get results and questionable moral basis.
Science- Excellent results and questionable morality.

Religion may have once gotten results, but it's too dependent on fixed doctrine. Science gets results, but has no morality. Doctrine without adaptability provides power, as does adaptability without morality. I think there should be a way of combining the two.

A big problem is that Science is often seen almost religiously, even though it lacks morality.

 

[just me]

Does voting have anything to do with this? I can only perceive the system we have. Set up something different than political parties to choose from; something different than voting.
The State is intervening into the Market so much right now the State is telling people in the Market what to do to a certain point. The Market was flawed and is on its way out. The State has the control on almost everything.
Do I think there could be a better way? Yes.