Bible Mysticism and Symbology

I was recently reminded of the binding of Isaac when watching Avatar Fire and Ash.

In the torah, Elohim command Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac. Isaac willingly participates in constructing the alter and his binding. At the last moment, an angel prevents Abraham from landing a killing blow. They then see a goat stuck in a thicket and sacrifice that instead. Because of this, Abraham is the father of nations

This reminds me of the scientific process. To be a good scientist, you have to try everything to prove your own theory wrong and kill it. If you are actually aligned with reality and not just trying to force your interpretation, something greater than you will prevent you from actually destroying it.

Because of his attitude, Abraham became the father of nations, because the willingness to adapt to reality aligns you with the creative force.

We can trust our feelings and instincts because they are the result of natural selection. The iterative selection of our ancestors by nature is what tuned our being with life. People have a hard time understanding that science has value not because we have everything figured out, but because voluntarily participating in natural selection is what drives progress.

My critique of science is the limited scope to materialism, but the higher virtue is voluntarily participating in evolution via feedback with reality. This is why living out your beliefs is so important, and hypocrisy is so bad. Only through action do you know what the many competing drives and feelings is actually supreme, and only by acting in the world and seeing the result can you know if you are correct or if you need to learn. Learning is an openness that let's you evolve to the optimal level, while never attaching to the current state, and remaining flexible enough to adapt when the environment changes.

@Fruiteloop I see the burning bush as a similar symbol. Fire is the element of transformation, and normally bushes die as they are consumed by flame. Like the binding of Isaac, where Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his only son lead to him being the most reproductively fit father in history, the burning of holy fire leads to life rather than death. The tree of human knowledge and the biological phylogenetic tree of life are both burning because they are in a state of transformation and revision. You can of course have fields of "knowledge" that become increasingly more complicated and differentiated that are not grounded in reality which would be destroyed when burning. Pursuing the burning bush is what causes Moses to reject Egyptian fascism and lead his people into the desert.

Another related metaphor is how fire is required refine ore, extracting the metal while burning away and extracting the impurities. I believe all three are related to the same attitude of adaptation toward reality.

One of my favorite alchemical images is the double ouroboros with a tree growing in the center, which I believe is the dream the scientific process is currently executing.

meowzician said:

Your wiki article states that Ludemann believed that the historical Jesus only said about 5% of the statements attributed to him in the gospels. Why are you bringing this person into the discussion when he so clearly disagrees with you?

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Because even though he disagrees with me, he still affirms the six minimal facts for the resurrection of Jesus. He also believes in the group appearances of Jesus after His death... that's powerful enemy attestation.

Now, you might say, "But he doesn't actually believe in the resurrection. So why does it matter that he agrees with the six facts?" Because his reasons for denying the resurrection are NOT based on the evidence. They are based on a presupposition, not evidence.

@meowzician @QuickTwist I would love to hear more about your personal spiritual experience, visions, dreams, symbolism you find inspiring, your meditations on their meaning, and how they changed your relationship to reality or lead to personal transformation.

I'd much rather hear about that than which of you wins this debate.

Lao Tzunami said:

@meowzician @QuickTwist I would love to hear more about your personal spiritual experience, visions, dreams, symbolism you find inspiring, your meditations on their meaning, and how they changed your relationship to reality or lead to personal transformation.

I'd much rather hear about that than which of you wins this debate.

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The problem with sharing these mystical experiences is that they often mean so much to the person experiencing them and very little by comparison to outside onlookers. They can easily be dismissed away as not reliable, or imagination, or whatever else.

Further, unless I actually stop to write these experiences down, I often end up forgetting about them. This isn't because they were not real, it's because I experience them so often that it is just part of life for me and as such is not something I make a "thing" out of. They are just a part of my life, like eating breakfast or getting your oil changed. I just find that these things happen so often to me that they are just part of life.

However, I will share this experience. I don't expect it to convince anyone else, but I will share it because you asked...

Here is one...

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

I've heard this verse come up for me at least four times in the last few days, from different sources. Clearly, God is trying to get my attention with something.

It dawns on me now, the impact this meeting with the prophet, with whom I had one conversation, that turned my life around forever, had on my view of the Word of God. This man confirmed the Bible as the Word of God to me. Though the origin of this individual is deeply mysterious, I left the encounter with a deep sense of reverence for the Word of God.

I think this verse coming up for me so often recently is a reminder of the impression this man left on me of his high reverence for the Word of God, which he passed on to me. I needed to be reminded of this. Rather than the focus on the man (who he was, whether he came from a supernatural origin or not), I should instead be focusing on how he made his points that cut through all my weaknesses, and he did this with the Word of God.

I will always be thankful to that man. I debated (and in some sense, still do) whether this man was Jesus in the flesh. He spoke as though he knew me. Like he was a living, breathing version of Hebrews 4:12. He left me with an uncompromising faith which led to a great change in me, both internally and externally, both spiritually and physically. I know I have a long way to go. That is what the Word of God says. But, wherever you are, dear friend, thank you for pointing me towards the Truth. My resolve is solid.

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Here is another...

I experienced a vision last night while I was in bed. Originally, I thought to get out of bed and write it down right then and there, but I decided if it was truly from God, I would remember the details the next day.

The vision I had was beautiful. Allow me to give the vision with no falsehoods or embellishments.

In my vision I saw the United States from space. I saw what looked like the Holy Spirit filling the US and spreading. The key to this was that there was a true uniting of Christians. Rather than Christians becoming more divided over doctrine, they were becoming united under one banner of faith. It was beautiful. There was no "time frame" for this vision, meaning I have no idea when this is supposed to occur.

Many thoughts went through my head as I saw this. I thought of what the cause for this uniting in faith was based on. The answer to this was that it was a work of the Spirit of God primarily, but also due to persecution against Christians, in a sense forcing them to convene. Other thoughts went through my head, such as what does this mean for Catholic vs Protestant believers? What does this mean for Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox believers? Will this movement stay in the US, or will it spread to other parts of the world? It was a very hopeful vision.

A final thought about the vision is that it lines up with this passage,

Ephesians 4:11-13
"And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness."

The key to this is the word "until." What this means is that there will not be unity until "we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son," which clearly has not happened yet. Therefore, at some point, what I saw in my vision will come true, and all Christians will be united in one faith. This is a work of God, not something humans can orchestrate.

I pray this is an encouragement to those who, like me, strive towards unity at this present time.

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This is in addition to the article I linked where I talked about a couple of dreams I had. I'm reluctant to share these because people so often don't think much of them or don't appreciate them.

QuickTwist said:

Here is one...

• "For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

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So the "word of God" is the Logos. Fundamentally, I believe logos is the conscious feedback with reality. This is the spirit that hovers over the chaos at the beginning of creation, and also what Christ represents.

The quantum physicist John Wheeler had a great diagram of the entire universe being aware of a tip of itself. The U can mean Universe or Unity. To me this "participatory universe" is the Logos.

Fruiteloop said:

@Lao Tzunami
I was then I went to sleep and found myself in a white void. I saw a female face and a figure covered in a cloak of liquid gold sunlight for what seemed like 20 seconds. Then everything was unconscious and I woke up. It was the most real experience I have ever had. The light was brighter than anything because it did not fade away like when the sun blinds you. I was completely steady and continuous light.

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Can you recall that state of mind? If so, how does that change how you relate to yourself and to other people? Have you found certain ways of being aligned or unaligned with that experience?