666

[DefectiveCreative]

Religion is a man-made fabrication, relying utterly on made-up miracles and events which have never had eye witnesses that are not delusional,...

Don't mind me, just lol-ing at the use of an unprovable assertion in a post that otherwise advocates the value of using empirically tested knowledge over the use of unprovable assertions.

 

[Krumplenump]

Don't mind me, just lol-ing at the use of an unprovable assertion in a post that otherwise advocates the value of using empirically tested knowledge over the use of unprovable assertions.

Dealing with what people say they have seen, whether they really thought they did or whether they are flat out lying, is always iffy.

So yes, unprovable, but fairly obvious to a 99.9% degree - at which point anyone who says "oh, but they might have really seen a miracle" is arguing on a mere 0.01% of feasibility. Take a step back and think of the sense, or lack of it, in doing that.

 

[kyo]

Dealing with what people say they have seen, whether they really thought they did or whether they are flat out lying, is always iffy.

There is also the possibility of it actually happening in reality Don't forget that.

So yes, unprovable, but fairly obvious to a 99.9% degree - at which point anyone who says "oh, but they might have really seen a miracle" is arguing on a mere 0.01% of feasibility. Take a step back and think of the sense, or lack of it, in doing that.

From where do you get your percentages? You can take a step back and think of the sense in it, but that is rather subjective to the one doing it.

 

[Krumplenump]

There is also the possibility of it actually happening in reality Don't forget that.


From where do you get your percentages? You can take a step back and think of the sense in it, but that is rather subjective to the one doing it.

Oh okay, let's make it 99.8%. The fact is it's overwhelmingly unlikely to the point where taking it as a valid argument is stupid.

If you want to deal with such improbabilities or if anyone else wants to handle such inanity with a tone of seriousness, I'm not stopping them, but don't expect me to.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

Oh okay, let's make it 99.8%. The fact is it's overwhelmingly unlikely to the point where taking it as a valid argument is stupid.

If you want to deal with such improbabilities or if anyone else wants to handle such inanity with a tone of seriousness, I'm not stopping them, but don't expect me to.

Some of the scientific advances we take for granted today were once considered laughably improbable, so while I don't expect you to take such seemingly highly unlikely things as the existence of miracles (something I don't personally think exist) as at least potentially valid or to deal with them with a "tone of seriousness", I do think it's a shame that you don't.

Also, I'm not sure if you're already familiar with it but as Fallibilism attempts to argue: even theories that seem completely incontrovertible (gravity, for example) may actually only exist in terms of possibilities and probabilities, because of the limitations of empirically determined knowledge. Which is why I feel that speaking about such possibilities/probabilities (there being no such thing as miracles, for example) - however likely they may seem - as if they were absolute certainties is almost certainly presumptive and potentially very self-limiting.

 

[NaeturVindur]

Your right, your 100% right. God won't force you to love him, he won't tell you to love him. No God is begging you to,He wants you to love him so much that when time came, when nothing short of everything would would prove his affection he gave everything.

He didn't send a prophet to teach, he didn't send a judge to guide or a king ot rule. No when God wanted to show the world how much it meant to him, he came himself to die for it. No roars of thunder or fire from heaven, just God hanging on a cross so that we wouldn't have to.

Let me say this, Love is first, love is always first. Nothing else matters, nothing else is important, who cares if I have faith in christ and love not, doesn't Satan have the same. What good have I commited if I live a life without wine or women if I loved not.

Love first, love one another, love God. Everything, every good deed follows from this. It is why Christianity only has one law.

And tell me are you free, realy free. I doubt it, look at your life and all your decisions, whom do they serve. Selfish desires, firends, money, family, the poor, the sick and the down trodden. The only difference between my slavery and yours is that I've chosen mine. My act of freedom was to choose to serve a new master.

So tell me what waits for you in death? do you have hope in death?

I live knowing that I have hope in death not in life.

Ok, I a few problems with what you said, and for these arguements, lets assume God exsists as you describe him, Jesus was truly his son, and really rose after 3 days:

You say he gave everything for us by dying on the cross, but was that actually giving everything? Is dying fully in the knowledge that you will rise in 3 DAYS really a sacrifice. Thats very much like going under anesthesia for surgery, excpet with MORE certainty of waking up. Is that truly a sacrifice? I say no.

Also, you say God loves us, utterly and truly. Then why does he punish those who don't love him? That's simply unrequited love. I have lived my life with unrequited love, and yet I punish none of the objects of my affection. Why? Because I LOVE them (ok, maybe it wasn't truly love in its fullest form, but its close, and I know this doesn't change my point). So, simply because we don't love God we're to be punished in hell? Is that truly love? I say no.

I'm now done with those assumptions.

Am I free? Not entirely. There are people in this nation who would deny me my rights, and are doing a damned good job at it. I have societal expectations imposed on me, that I am yet to throw off (I'm yet to defeat that Dragon, so to speak [anyone get it? eh? eh?]). However, those very same expectations are the very same ones YOU are subject to. So you are no more free than I am in that respect. Religiously, am I free? Yes, absolutely, 100% Who do I serve? Myself, and only myself. I find it my best interest to assist those who I care for, and them some, because doing so brings me happiness and peace of mind. But no religion forces me to do it. I have no spiritual master but my own soul. I choose to respect my Gods because I find it to be a fulfilling relationship, but I don't have to do so.

What do I have to look forward to in death? In whose perspective? In yours I can look to truly proving myself for all existence, by steadfastly holding by my standards and values. Your depiction of God does not fulfill these standards/values, and so I will deny him straight to hell, with a smile on my face. In my perspective. I look forward to going to what I like to call the Summerlands. This is a place to walk with Deity, a place of plenty, where no real stress exists. However, I can't imagine it being a place of laziness, with every need handed to you, simply because that would be boring. I imagine reat adventures to be had, and work to be done to sustain one's self, but not so much that its overly difficult. I imagine a place less focused on reality so that magick can be worked to wonderful effect. THATS what I have to look forward to.

One final thing, you said you have hope in death, and not in life. why? I have hope in both. I live my life to be enjoyed, because thats how life should be lived. Then in death, the enjoyment should be continued.

 

[Barnabas]

[quote=N

 

[NaeturVindur]

alright let's answer the question of death and sacrifice first. Have you ever been stabed, how about whipped? No, what about beaten to an inch of your life nd having the flesh torn from your back, the havea robed tossed over the lacerations and letting the blood dry, just to rip the robe off as soon as it dried? What about being forced to carry a weights to the point when you could no longer walk? Have you ever stepped on a nail, what about having one driven into the central nerve in your hand.

Do you have any idea what death on the cross is like, I couldn't possibly describe the insanity that cruxifiction is. This form of punishment actually invented a new word to describe the pain endured, excruciating.

So let's redefine your senario of going under the knife. How about donating a kidney with no anesthetics because it might damage the organ.
That would be a hell of a sacrifice.

don't think that dying alone was a sacrifice, there was so much more.


next let's look at heaven and hell. People have this idea that Hell is a punishment forced on non-believers. But let's clarify what hell is, first Hell at it's most basic form is life without God.Secondly Hell is not a punishment for believing in God, but instead a punishment for you sins(remember it is sin that seperate you from God in the first place.), so if you want to live a perfect life, feel free you would easily go to heaven.but perfect isn't easy little less possible.

Infact, the whole thing is your decision. You choose whether you go to hell or not, you choose die or live.

Think of it this way You for some reason find yourself in court for gambling. You have managed to accumulate a great deal of debt, so muc so that you could never phisically pay it off. Before the Judge makes a decision on your sentence the person whom you are endebted to comes in and tells the Judge, "I will drop the charges if he trys to never gamble again, even if he slips up again I will cover his debt."

Now you have to options accept your debtors agreement or go to jail, whic do you choose?


and what of my slavery, I'm boud to this world, only to my God. I don't by into culutural or social ties and I don't need to. But God I love, and so for him I would do anything.

And what of your deities, do they care about you, do they love you as if you were their child or do they say do as you please just don't mess with any one else. If the first is tru the second can't be, and vice versa because Parents have a natural response to help, protect and take care of their children.

Think about how many parents tell their children do as you will.

Ok, I'll give you the death on the cross part. I didn't think that one all the way through, and wasn't really that attached to that argument.

I'll get back to you on the hell part. thats going to take some thinking to fully flesh out what I have to say.

O the slavery point: my point was that we are equal in our attachment to society. I have a VERY hard time believing you've completely thrown off the pressures of society. Many many people spend a life time trying to do so, and rarely succeed. You, at 18, have already done it? bravo. The only difference between our freedoms is our religons. You dedicate yourself to a God because you choose to, I dedicate myself to myself because I choose to. Who's more free?

Deity as a parent deal, you're flat out wrong. Some of the best adjusted children I have ever met have come from parents who essentially said "An it harm none, do what ye will." They explain what they think is best, and then explain why. If the child chooses to listen, great, if not, they'll learn to. Every action has consequences, and that's what they teach. This is what my gods to for me.

I never once remember hearing God explain why, particularly for his OT laws (which I know you say most of them were done away with by Jesus). He says "do this, because I say so." Thats it. That does not produce well adjusted children, that produces subservient children.

GUESS WHAT! Science is behind me on this one. There have been several studies done on how parenting styles affect children. The "An it harm none..." parents produce the best adjusted, most confident, and all around best children.

 

[Barnabas]

[quote=N