6w5
- Thread starter CindyLou
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Trifoilum
find wisdom, build hope.
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I heard that 6w5 INFJs aren't that uncommon (6w5 ISFJs are more common), but not that implausible.
Ideals, at some point, will be twisted.
What we did, at some point, will not only mean nothing; but backfired.
I prepare anyway.
Have you?
I have faith that people, at some point, regardless of the reasons and their intentions, will disappoint you.
Ideals, at some point, will be twisted.
What we did, at some point, will not only mean nothing; but backfired.
I prepare anyway.
Have you?
So the thing is, different theorists have different interpretations of type 6 -- the original one was actually not S-correlated at all. The one on the RHETI is S-correlated (because essentially they portray 6 as sticking with the known and thus not as curious/exploratory/more just sticking to security/less open to possibilities).
I think the thing is all sorts of interpretations are reasonable, so one should be flexible. My own personal interpretation of type 6 emphasizes its skepticism, and if anything this makes me more open to chasing various possibilities, less certain, and so on. I consider my attitude a push and pull between never quite being satisfied and chasing more possibilities vs knowing at the bottom there are some limitations that ground me in reality...even if I question if that really is reality, at some point I'm forced to behave as if it is, again by the limitations of my personal constitution.
If you want to call this a Ne-Si axis related thing, you can do that. Different axes in different manifestations can apply the philosophies of different enneatypes (so there are certainly ways Ne can obtain energy from a 7 orientation, the more traditional excitable enthusiastic inventor archetype would be like this -- of course it should be noted I waffle on whether 6w7 or 7w6 best fits me).
Claudio Naranjo (who basically invented the enneagram as we know it -- though it had roots in Ichazo and Gurdjieff) thought Nietzsche was 6-ish, and Nietzsche was Jung's posterchild for a Ni-dom.
I have all the usual 6 issues, but basically I trust cautiously, and based on markers of trustworthiness I think are most foolproof. Overall, I have more problems with authority than I do with friends (in fact, I tend to approach issues of the heart triad through issues of authority, because usually approval/value are found by means of a perceived-as-competent authority...who has the "expertise" to confer an award or praise so that it will then be believed), because I usually make friends with harmless people. Authorities, I usually am constantly questioning. That shows up in how I feel the need to sound the alarm when people assume there's 1 objective functions theory, when in reality there's tons of authorities all quarreling...often a given authority won't emphasize this, and will just state his/her assumptions as if they're uncontroversial.
This stuff concerns people's sense of self, and deception about such matters can lead to immense psychological harm (and I mean, I know some take this stuff with a grain of salt but others, taking so-called "professionals" seriously, seem to be legitimately harmed).
I think the thing is all sorts of interpretations are reasonable, so one should be flexible. My own personal interpretation of type 6 emphasizes its skepticism, and if anything this makes me more open to chasing various possibilities, less certain, and so on. I consider my attitude a push and pull between never quite being satisfied and chasing more possibilities vs knowing at the bottom there are some limitations that ground me in reality...even if I question if that really is reality, at some point I'm forced to behave as if it is, again by the limitations of my personal constitution.
If you want to call this a Ne-Si axis related thing, you can do that. Different axes in different manifestations can apply the philosophies of different enneatypes (so there are certainly ways Ne can obtain energy from a 7 orientation, the more traditional excitable enthusiastic inventor archetype would be like this -- of course it should be noted I waffle on whether 6w7 or 7w6 best fits me).
Claudio Naranjo (who basically invented the enneagram as we know it -- though it had roots in Ichazo and Gurdjieff) thought Nietzsche was 6-ish, and Nietzsche was Jung's posterchild for a Ni-dom.
I have all the usual 6 issues, but basically I trust cautiously, and based on markers of trustworthiness I think are most foolproof. Overall, I have more problems with authority than I do with friends (in fact, I tend to approach issues of the heart triad through issues of authority, because usually approval/value are found by means of a perceived-as-competent authority...who has the "expertise" to confer an award or praise so that it will then be believed), because I usually make friends with harmless people. Authorities, I usually am constantly questioning. That shows up in how I feel the need to sound the alarm when people assume there's 1 objective functions theory, when in reality there's tons of authorities all quarreling...often a given authority won't emphasize this, and will just state his/her assumptions as if they're uncontroversial.
This stuff concerns people's sense of self, and deception about such matters can lead to immense psychological harm (and I mean, I know some take this stuff with a grain of salt but others, taking so-called "professionals" seriously, seem to be legitimately harmed).
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My philosophy tends to have hints of the optimism of 7 and the skepticism of 6. I'm not as pessimistic about all (but yes, most) people disappointing you, but in my optimism, there's also a double-edged sword, because I become entitled/angry/accusatory/argumentative if people I placed faith in disappoint me -- because usually I don't expect things I don't believe reasonable/try to keep expectations to the most important things, such as people acting of good will.The most pessimistic types usually withdraw rather than expect anything. I suppose that's part of E5, which tends to involve a feeling of isolation/feeling that at most one can rely on oneself. E7 can keep up a certain naive idealism within the person.
hush
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Just noticed this thread - I tend to vacillate between whether I'm a 6w5 or 5w6, but these were my results the last time I posted my results on here, about a year ago.
Trust is definitely not easy for me... I don't say this lightly, but I'm not sure there's anyone in my life I trust 100%, not even my closest friends - though there are a couple good friends of mine I trust above and beyond any others. It took a long time to forge that trust though, trials and tribulations endured together, like spending Christmas morning crying and laughing together over the irony of just how terrible everything was during a time when people are supposed to be at their "merriest"... It's hard though. Incredibly hard. Pretty much any time I expose myself or make myself vulnerable, I experience an immediate physical reaction. It varies depending on the scenario/circumstances, but I can get lightheaded, tense, shaky, my breathing and heart rate can change, sometimes I just freeze, and sometimes I have to flee, when I can't take the feeling of vulnerability anymore... and that's only when I'm able to open up and make myself vulnerable altogether, which is a feat unto itself.
I say this with a fair degree of certainty, but trust, or a lack thereof, is possibly the biggest obstacle of all in my life. What keeps me from reaching out, moving forward, allowing myself to more fully connect with people. I can trust, I know I can, but it's almost like waging war. You have to fight for it. An ex a couple years ago would tell me to just let go, stop thinking so much... But I think the real victory is staying engaged and in the moment, being able to trust with a clear heart and a clear mind. That would be a beautiful thing, something I think I yearn for, but at times fear I can never attain.
CindyLou
Get over it
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I relate to this exactly. I very rarely let myself get vulnerable anymore. If someone has been able to see me that way it's a gift I've given them, and one I don't take lightly when betrayed. I'm now at the point where I can easily tell those people can fuck off, but I also get nervous when I get too isolated lol
This is a good video I saw on type 6 that resonated a bit with me
This one below really resonated with me. Especially the oneness and being strong and secure and safe. When there is nothing to make me feel vulnerable. BUT. When there's a split it's a bit difficult for me to get back to the first state.
I continue to waffle on 6w7/7w6; reading the discussion here is pretty interesting. I think I'm overall more along the lines of averse to pain chronically than mistrusting.
I think on 5 vs 6, the difference tends to be that 5s are more isolated/cut off than mistrusting; it's not so much that they mistrust and thus withdraw from others as they feel fundamentally alone to begin with (hence why E4 is a neighbor -- feeling alone is a cousin to feeling an inability to connect or be valued for who one is/feeling there's something flawed/wrong with oneself).
You could say 5 'trust themselves' more than 6, but achieve that by paralysis of going outside oneself --more a 'this is all I have' so a kind of emptiness replacing doubt
I don't think everyone neeeeds to have a dominant wing; I think 6/7 both show in me...but I think some seem like they're just 6s or 7s with neither wing obviously greater
Neither of you two seems as 7ish just from the above, yeah -- hush sounded 6w5ish.
I think on 5 vs 6, the difference tends to be that 5s are more isolated/cut off than mistrusting; it's not so much that they mistrust and thus withdraw from others as they feel fundamentally alone to begin with (hence why E4 is a neighbor -- feeling alone is a cousin to feeling an inability to connect or be valued for who one is/feeling there's something flawed/wrong with oneself).
You could say 5 'trust themselves' more than 6, but achieve that by paralysis of going outside oneself --more a 'this is all I have' so a kind of emptiness replacing doubt
I don't think everyone neeeeds to have a dominant wing; I think 6/7 both show in me...but I think some seem like they're just 6s or 7s with neither wing obviously greater
Neither of you two seems as 7ish just from the above, yeah -- hush sounded 6w5ish.
I wouldn't mind hearing -- what makes it hard for you (those of you identifying with 6) to trust? I'd call myself one of the most willing to consider alternate explanations, but eventually I get to the point where the answer seems staring me in the face.
Perhaps part of it is what you mean by trust -- for example, does it mean someone who is harmless? Or does it mean someone who "understands you"? I consider myself a simple person, with not much to understand -- once I know someone is harmless, that's all that matters.
Of course, most aren't harmless, but some seem to be the textbook definition of that.
By the way, I know someone who is definitely a *4*, not a 6, who has the issue with "exposing herself." 4w5, though.
She's said she always keeps herself hidden.
It's more a sense of flawedness though than a sense of mistrusting others -- like no good would come from exposing oneself, that one is stuck with oneself, and it would be unnecessary vulnerability to expose it.
What hush said sounded 6w5-ish, but some of this 4w5 friend's stuff occurred to me, so it's possible 5w6 would work -- I obviously have just seen a snippet
Perhaps part of it is what you mean by trust -- for example, does it mean someone who is harmless? Or does it mean someone who "understands you"? I consider myself a simple person, with not much to understand -- once I know someone is harmless, that's all that matters.
Of course, most aren't harmless, but some seem to be the textbook definition of that.
By the way, I know someone who is definitely a *4*, not a 6, who has the issue with "exposing herself." 4w5, though.
She's said she always keeps herself hidden.
It's more a sense of flawedness though than a sense of mistrusting others -- like no good would come from exposing oneself, that one is stuck with oneself, and it would be unnecessary vulnerability to expose it.
What hush said sounded 6w5-ish, but some of this 4w5 friend's stuff occurred to me, so it's possible 5w6 would work -- I obviously have just seen a snippet
CindyLou
Get over it
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No, it's not understanding me or if someone is harmless or not. I don't think. What do you consider harmless?
I sometimes trust initially, but then over time I feel like they're not...with me. Once that split happens (and I don't mean psychological splitting) it's hard to stay close to them because I don't know if they'll betray me or not. They're on the outside. What do they want with me?
People who aren't consistent cause me to doubt them. I get weird feelings about things. I want to know whats hiding underneath the surface. I want to know what dynamics are at play that I don't know about.
I don't want to get hurt.
I sometimes trust initially, but then over time I feel like they're not...with me. Once that split happens (and I don't mean psychological splitting) it's hard to stay close to them because I don't know if they'll betray me or not. They're on the outside. What do they want with me?
People who aren't consistent cause me to doubt them. I get weird feelings about things. I want to know whats hiding underneath the surface. I want to know what dynamics are at play that I don't know about.
I don't want to get hurt.
CindyLou said:
I suppose not wanting to get hurt sounds to me at least like you seek harmless people
I think harmless just means gentle spirits who don't tend to attack people, and are overall well-intentioned/not there to just screw with people.
One reason things are easy for me is I'm pretty simple -- I am committed to gentleness and reason, not much else. so what someone wants with me is often obvious!
I don't get close to complex people/they don't approach me, so I don't deal much with stuff hiding deep down; I'm accepting of people's deep down as long as they're uncompromisingly harmless (so no ideal of theirs can supersede that)-- if not, I don't feel sympathy or deal with them.
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