A philosophical debate - Tools

[Creon]

Needing a weapon is different from wanting a weapon.

You are most likely currently living in a situation where you don't need one. And you probably keep yourself in situations where you will never need one.

But if I'm out hiking in Yellowstone (or any deep forested area), or even around the desert here in NV, I want a weapon with me. And I carry a weapon with me. In the woods you never know what you are going to run across, Yellowstone is grizzly territory with a sprinkling of cougars in the area. Chances are slim to none that I will ever run into one, however, I am not going to bet my life on those odds.

Here in Nevada there are coyotes, feral dog packs (you want to face an attacking pit bull unarmed?), and people go out to the desert all the time for target practice. If I'm in the wadi's and I can't see where the people firing are (or where they are firing at), I'm going to fire into the air to try and get their attention (I carry a whistle on me too, and will use that first, but I'm not going to rely on it) so that I can leave the area safely.

This doesn't mean anytime I take a weapon out that I'm looking for a chance or reason to use it. Nor am I 'tempted' to use it on another human being.

Listen, what I am suggesting here is not a rule. It's not some monumental truth or something. Some individuals feel the way you do, while others dont. And I am not reffering to your temtpetion to kill a man in general. What I am saying is that is if someone hurt you in some way (ex. Someone hits and kills a friend of yours with his car while driving drunk), its probable that your temptation to serve justice and kill a person is greater when you hold a gun in your hands.

This is not a political matter for me. I can understand that most of you are Americans and are into these pro-gun or against gun legislations. I just wanted to point out the tools in general, not the guns specifically. Its just that in my conversation with my friend, we used that as a very good example, because of its controversy.

 

[just me]

Hmm.
Yes I see your point. I understand the way you see things. Basically you just consider that a gun is not a tool, because of personal reasons.

I stated in my first topic that you can freely use religious or moral statements to support your argument. As long as it is withing the topic, feel free to do so. I may not believe in god myself, but I cannot ignore the fact that most people are religious, and I have to respect their choices and more importantly, their opinions.

No, Taz, I do not feel a gun is not a tool for personal reasons. I was explaining my passion you mistook for aggression.
I feel a gun has no nature, but have not grabbed a dictionary to explain to me how nature is defined nowadays. It can be used as a "tool". I have seen several grips on firearms that look as if they were used as nutcrackers; some, like hammers. It may be used as a tool; hopefully, while unloaded.
I feel a gun is an object. I feel the use of a gun to be mostly positive. I feel the news media shows it when the gun is used in a negative manner. That is logical. I feel the news media could be more dangerous than a gun.
I feel a government could be more dangerous than a gun. This has progressed much faster than I thought it would, so I will try to leave out my Biblical analogy for the moment and possibly altogether; we will see.
Back to the reading......

 

[acd]

While I no longer want a gun, I also don't think they should be banned. I think it is up to the freedom of the people to decide for themselves.?

I concurr

When I was an MP, I did carry a 45 - I also never once loaded the thing. It was what we called "a show of power" - the prisoners could see it on my shoulder or my hip (depending on the circumstances) but I never once inserted the clip. I will die before I will kill. HAHA! But they didn't know that, did they?

I never would ever have guessed you were a military police officer! You are full of surprises!

 

[acd]

I will try to leave out my Biblical analogy for the moment and possibly altogether; we will see.
Back to the reading......

No need to censor yourself! You should be as free as anyone else to talk about your beliefs and/or the bible!

 

[Silently Honest]

No need to censor yourself! You should be as free as anyone else to talk about your beliefs and/or the bible!

This, what she said.

 

[mayflow]

This, what she said.

This, what he said she said! I swear, this forum is making me giddy. Luckily, I have no idea of what being giddy means, but still, I think I like it.

 

[just me]

Listen, what I am suggesting here is not a rule. It's not some monumental truth or something. Some individuals feel the way you do, while others dont. And I am not reffering to your temtpetion to kill a man in general. What I am saying is that is if someone hurt you in some way (ex. Someone hits and kills a friend of yours with his car while driving drunk), its probable that your temptation to serve justice and kill a person is greater when you hold a gun in your hands.

This is not a political matter for me. I can understand that most of you are Americans and are into these pro-gun or against gun legislations. I just wanted to point out the tools in general, not the guns specifically. Its just that in my conversation with my friend, we used that as a very good example, because of its controversy.

Taz, the only thing in your context that impels me to copy it is your statement about probabilities. Once again, a person knows he/she could lose the right to carry a firearm should he/she use it. The criminal element is a "whole nuther ball of wax". Law-abiding citizens do not murder drunks.
Their anger is controlled and the gun does not tempt anyone. In the first chapter of James verse 14 it states, "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." verse 15 "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." Taking it out of context, this actually shows in great detail how the mind works concerning lust or temptations. The enticing is for reward or pleasure. I wanted to use that on page one but this thread took off running. Why? A gun cannot tempt a person; it is a process of thought in the mind that is mostly overcome with our reason.

 

[alcyone]

And I am not reffering to your temtpetion to kill a man in general. What I am saying is that is if someone hurt you in some way (ex. Someone hits and kills a friend of yours with his car while driving drunk), its probable that your temptation to serve justice and kill a person is greater when you hold a gun in your hands.

You are right, the temptation to take matters in my own hands does increase when I have a weapon. But that is emotion without sense. I try to be sensical about my emotions because of how strong and deep they run.

And the same holds true for any tool, directly or indirectly. Or knowledge for that matter. And any tool with a maliciousily inclined mind wielding it can be turned against another human (or animal) with the intent to neutralize the threat another poses or to kill.

A gun is most often brought up because it is something that can be used immediately and to great effect when emotions run at the highest. Ease of use and effectiveness. Those same qualities make it invaluable as a defense tool as well. As a tool, a gun is not a neutralizing factor, it's an equalizing factor. However, human nature is never content to be equal. We always strive to be ahead of others. It's an instinct that we'll never be rid of.

 

[just me]

You are right, the temptation to take matters in my own hands does increase when I have a weapon. But that is emotion without sense. I try to be sensical about my emotions because of how strong and deep they run.

And the same holds true for any tool, directly or indirectly. Or knowledge for that matter. And any tool with a maliciousily inclined mind wielding it can be turned against another human (or animal) with the intent to neutralize the threat another poses or to kill.

A gun is most often brought up because it is something that can be used immediately and to great effect when emotions run at the highest. Ease of use and effectiveness. Those same qualities make it invaluable as a defense tool as well. As a tool, a gun is not a neutralizing factor, it's an equalizing factor. However, human nature is never content to be equal. We always strive to be ahead of others. It's an instinct that we'll never be rid of.

Alcyone, I take it you carry a rather large gun by that statement. Just kidding. I beg to differ that human nature is never content to be equal.
I could deal with a "sometimes"; may could believe many times in certain situations, but cannot agree with never. Maybe it is possible I am the exception. I doubt I stand alone there.

 

[just me]

This, what he said she said! I swear, this forum is making me giddy. Luckily, I have no idea of what being giddy means, but still, I think I like it.

Well then giddyup!

 

[alcyone]

Alcyone, I take it you carry a rather large gun by that statement. Just kidding. I beg to differ that human nature is never content to be equal.
I could deal with a "sometimes"; may could believe many times in certain situations, but cannot agree with never. Maybe it is possible I am the exception. I doubt I stand alone there.

Actually, I carry a .45 when I'm walking in the desert, but we keep the shotgun loaded and in the closet by the bed. Just in case.

So, you've never sought a promotion at work? You never compete? You've never bargained for something extra? Your neighbors buy a new car and when you look at your car you notice all the rust, dings, dents anew?

Never in your life has the grass looked greener on the other side? I'm not saying you have to act on the impulse. But I seriously doubt that you have been completely and totally at peace with your lot in life.

 

[Shai Gar]

I compete with myself, not others... We all have different goals, mine isn't to keep up with the Jones's.

Hell, who doesn't keep a loaded shotgun in the car when they travel in the outback? If you hit a kangaroo you're going to need to put it out of its misery instead of leaving it to die of painful internal injuries. That's just the most polite and socially acceptable reason for the shotgun.

 

[just me]

Actually, I carry a .45 when I'm walking in the desert, but we keep the shotgun loaded and in the closet by the bed. Just in case.

So, you've never sought a promotion at work? You never compete? You've never bargained for something extra? Your neighbors buy a new car and when you look at your car you notice all the rust, dings, dents anew?

Never in your life has the grass looked greener on the other side? I'm not saying you have to act on the impulse. But I seriously doubt that you have been completely and totally at peace with your lot in life.

You are so correct in saying I have not been completely and totally at peace with my lot in life. I will go farther to say a person can become less competitive and actually seek things spiritually moreso than physically the closer our time nears. Hanging out with older and wiser people than yourself, like I do, helps us to see through others' eyes. It can have a great impact on our wishes and desires. I do not have to win. I do strive to get my point across if it feels important to do so. I can walk away from a fight. I have shot many three-rail bank shots in my younger days at the eight ball; most people did not mind losing a game when I made them.

 

[mayflow]

Actually, I carry a .45 when I'm walking in the desert, but we keep the shotgun loaded and in the closet by the bed. Just in case.

So, you've never sought a promotion at work? You never compete? You've never bargained for something extra? Your neighbors buy a new car and when you look at your car you notice all the rust, dings, dents anew?

Never in your life has the grass looked greener on the other side? I'm not saying you have to act on the impulse. But I seriously doubt that you have been completely and totally at peace with your lot in life.

Well, I can't speak for "just me" but I hold no envy or jealousy for any neighbors or anyone anywheres. If they have good thing that bring them happiness, that's cool, real cool. I really don't get why I would think otherwise?

 

[Zero]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people - a very well known quote.

Guns may have been invented for a great deal many things, but agreeably they're used mostly for self-defense or militaristically. China discovered gun powder and first used it in application with a projectile so if you must blame anyone for guns, blame the Chinese. However, to believe that tools have one purpose is just silly. Guns aren't the only way to kill people, just as bows and arrows aren't the only way to hunt game. I could kill a person with a cooking pan all the same, just because guns have a stigma about them doesn't merit us looking at it any differently.

We usually expect as humans that when we invent a tool, what we invented it to do far exceeds it's application. I believe the opposite if more true. If it were not, then duct tape would actually do what it was made to do, rather than have 1001 other uses.

Guns, while a touchy subject, I believe can be used responsibly. Guns are a deadly and despicable tool indeed, but not anymore despicable than the person using it. To have a gun for protection and self-defense is far more responsible as having it to gain more power.

Guns are like any tool mankind has made, it has uses, and when those uses conflict with the benefits of other humans then it isn't the fault of the tool, but the fault of the people involved in its application.

 

[alcyone]

If you hit a kangaroo you're going to need to put it out of its misery instead of leaving it to die of painful internal injuries. That's just the most polite and socially acceptable reason for the shotgun.

Unless of course one would rather slit its throat and let it bleed out. But most people don't have the stomach for that kind of up close and in the face stuff.

 

[just me]

I compete with myself, not others... We all have different goals, mine isn't to keep up with the Jones's.

Much agreed. The three-rail bank shot was a personal challenge instead of a final blow.

 

[KingOfSpades]

Yes that is what I am suggesting. I couldnt possible say that it is accurate. I cant be sure about these kind of things. Its just my opinion and some thoughts on the matter.

Ok, that's great -- just wanted to understand where you were coming from.

The idea of a tool possessing special 'power' is a pretty ancient belief -- i think that's the basis for voodoo and the like (you create a tool or a fetish and then it has a power of its own).

i dunno if that's all true or not, but it's true that humans can sometimes decide a tool is too dangerous to exist. that's why we ban chemical and biological weapons for example (their mere existence is seen as a threat to human well being).

 

[Shai Gar]

Unless of course one would rather slit its throat and let it bleed out. But most people don't have the stomach for that kind of up close and in the face stuff.

I've worked on the kill floor of a slaughterhouse as a "Stimulator", which means inserting an electric probe into the anus and removed nostrils of the cow and then electrocuting it so that the blood gets charged and then immediately after the charge floods out of the slit in the throat, and generally all over me. 500+ Beasts in a shift, 5 shifts a week for 5 months. I don't mind getting down and dirty, however I feel that it's more humane to use a shotgun to blow out its brain rather than bleed the animal out, much quicker.

 

[dissonance]

"Good" and "evil" don't make sense unless applied to specific human actions, and only then when your framework for judgment is rigidly defined.

What I mean is, an object can't be good or evil (not even a person).