Abortion

[just me]

Being a human, in my opinion, consists mainly of two things: consciousness and social existence. A fetus has neither (unless it's planned, in which case it kind of does exist socially), I have both. When an unwanted child is born, three lives are ruined. An abortion only denies one, and there's unfulfilled potential everywhere in the world: that's neither negative nor positive.

A fetus has a heartbeat of its own. In your opinion regarding a human, there are those in the hospital that are not humans any longer, though their heart still beats. It is pretty difficult being conscious and existing in society without such.

When an unwanted child is killed, one life is ruined. Potential for that child has been taken away by another. Could have been the father or mother of your parents, which would make that more ruined life(s).

 

[Morpheus]

so there begs another question, does one life equal another?

As an idealistic notion yes, every life is equally valuable. From a pragmatic point of view no. Some people just are better adjusted to the world we live in. I think that, if there is no other difference, the life of an unemployed junkie is not as valuable as that of a doctor. Ofcourse, it's extremely difficult, if even possible to evaluate people's lives and it shouldn't be done unless nescessary.

I'm not quite certain that I underestood your question correctly.

A fetus has a heartbeat of its own. In your opinion regarding a human, there are those in the hospital that are not humans any longer, though their heart still beats. It is pretty difficult being conscious and existing in society without such.

When an unwanted child is killed, one life is ruined. Potential for that child has been taken away by another. Could have been the father or mother of your parents, which would make that more ruined life(s).

Seems like I have to keep on spewing controversial opinions: I don't think heartbeat is that important. Yes, I do think that a comatosed, braindead patient is not really a human anymore or, rather, is a dead human. Our bodies are biological machines: they are important for us, but they are not what makes us special.

Had I been aborted or had my parents been aborted, that wouldn't have ruined my life. It would have denied it, and it wouldn't affect me. You need to exist to be pissed of about something. Our experiences in physical and social world are a great part of what makes us people. The mere coincidence of being born is nescessary but not that integral. So no, I still don't think that an abortion ruins the fetus's life, it just denies potential, which is something that happens everywhere all the time (or rather than denying potential, the world takes a different path, fulfills a different potential: we aren't qualified to evaluate what's good and what's bad, for we don't know what would have happened if things had gone down differently).

 

[just me]

Seems like I have to keep on spewing controversial opinions: I don't think heartbeat is that important. Yes, I do think that a comatosed, braindead patient is not really a human anymore or, rather, is a dead human. Our bodies are biological machines: they are important for us, but they are not what makes us special.

Had I been aborted or had my parents been aborted, that wouldn't have ruined my life. It would have denied it, and it wouldn't affect me. You need to exist to be pissed of about something. Our experiences in physical and social world are a great part of what makes us people. The mere coincidence of being born is nescessary but not that integral. So no, I still don't think that an abortion ruins the fetus's life, it just denies potential, which is something that happens everywhere all the time (or rather than denying potential, the world takes a different path, fulfills a different potential: we aren't qualified to evaluate what's good and what's bad, for we don't know what would have happened if things had gone down differently).

It would be such a shame to know Albert Einstein would not have affected anything in life had he not been born. You, Morpheus, may find the cure for a disease one day. Some individuals contribute much to the greater needs of people in general. We could be changing history, if you will pardon my folly.

We become judge and jury when we take a heartbeat away, knowing one dies when the heart stops beating. We have then taken a life.

I must very politely say some of us may very well know what is good and what is bad; it is evident, though maybe not to all. In your context I understand what you are saying, but felt the need to throw that into the mix.
I also would want a doctor that believes more strongly regarding the heartbeat. ; )

 

[Morpheus]

It would be such a shame to know Albert Einstein would not have affected anything in life had he not been born. You, Morpheus, may find the cure for a disease one day. Some individuals contribute much to the greater needs of people in general. We could be changing history, if you will pardon my folly.

We become judge and jury when we take a heartbeat away, knowing one dies when the heart stops beating. We have then taken a life.

I must very politely say some of us may very well know what is good and what is bad; it is evident, though maybe not to all. In your context I understand what you are saying, but felt the need to throw that into the mix.
I also would want a doctor that believes more strongly regarding the heartbeat. ; )

Lucky for you, then, that in the end I decided against going to medical school. Just kidding: it's highly unlikely i'd have been your doctor anyways.

Yes it would be a shame had Einstein, or say, Shakespeare never been born.

Though think of all the great poets and scientists, those far superior to either of the aforementioned fellows, who never were, but could have been. And they weren't aborted, at least most of them weren't: maybe their parents never met each other. Or maybe they did, and maybe the geniuses were born (some of them atleast, of the unheard of). Geniuses born just to be supressed by their enviroments, denied their potential. All the little great people wasting away with mediocre lives, tortured by mental illness due to lack of intellectual stimuli. An infinte number of ghosts of potential haunting every actualized human being.

The thing is: people aren't special because of their genetics, or at least they aren't special just because of that. Functionally we are created by life-experience, not by conception (could a broken condom be an identity for someone?).

And another thing. I must moderately impolitely say: you can't know what's good and bad. : )

 

[just me]

Lucky for you, then, that in the end I decided against going to medical school. Just kidding: it's highly unlikely i'd have been your doctor anyways.

Yes it would be a shame had Einstein, or say, Shakespeare never been born.

Though think of all the great poets and scientists, those far superior to either of the aforementioned fellows, who never were, but could have been. And they weren't aborted, at least most of them weren't: maybe their parents never met each other. Or maybe they did, and maybe the geniuses were born (some of them atleast, of the unheard of). Geniuses born just to be supressed by their enviroments, denied their potential. All the little great people wasting away with mediocre lives, tortured by mental illness due to lack of intellectual stimuli. An infinte number of ghosts of potential haunting every actualized human being.

The thing is: people aren't special because of their genetics, or at least they aren't special just because of that. Functionally we are created by life-experience, not by conception (could a broken condom be an identity for someone?).

And another thing. I must moderately impolitely say: you can't know what's good and bad. : )

Hope you meant "one" can't know. heh
It is good to try and be polite, and bad not to do so when not knowing to whom one is speaking to at the very least. I would much rather not be judged human by my functions, but I guess some may try and do so. It is your choice. I do not feel offended. Hope you do not feel so.

 

[Morpheus]

Hope you meant "one" can't know. heh
It is good to try and be polite, and bad not to do so when not knowing to whom one is speaking to at the very least. I would much rather not be judged human by my functions, but I guess some may try and do so. It is your choice. I do not feel offended. Hope you do not feel so.

Yes I did use "you" as a passive, it could and perhaps should have been replaced with "one" (regardeless of it being quite Virginia Woolfish)

 

[just me]

Maybe I should have said it is "one's own" choice!

My friend, it is just a reminder to us all of the simplicity of making things more difficult, without reason or cause most of the time (though not always), regarding the dissection of human communication through words. I feel sometimes the subject at hand, as in this case, to be much more important than our banter with words.

 

[Haven]

During my childhood my parents were never around to look after me, I was raised by my loving grandfather. I had some contact with my mother and have only meet my father once, after my grandfather passed away, I fell into a deep depression, I had lost my rock, and strangely yearned for the comfort of my father, I began thinking about him more and more, during this time the anger that I had towards him manifested into hatred, "where was he when I needed him the most. I made a promise to myself to always be there for my child and stuck to the ideal with conviction. A couple of years later my partner who I had only been seeing for a couple of months fell pregnant, My mind was racing, I didn't know whether or not I was actually ready for a baby, all I felt was fear and a sicking sense of the unknown. We made the decision to have the abortion, it all seems like a rushed blur thinking about it now. We both had our reasons and I'm not going to justify them in anyway, Going through with the abortion was one of the hardest things Ive ever done. I think about the promise I made to myself years ago, An overwhelming sense of guilt tears at who I thought, I was, I begin to see myself in a new light or perhaps in the shadow of my father.

I think the worst thing about it all was sitting in the small room with three other young couples, few words were spoken even then mere whispers, the understanding of what was about to happen, showed on everyones face, and all I felt at that moment was shame. I will never have another abortion, but understand the pressure of it all, strength be with you in what ever you decided

 

[Galileo]

I'd say it's a baby when doctors/scientests believe it to be so, though for me I don't think I'd start considering it a baby until I knew what sex it was and could stop calling it an it.

I think that if a woman wants an abortion before 3 months she should be allowed. I believe that the law should protect people from the beliefs of others being forced upon them. We should have the freedom to do what we want with our own bodies as long as it hurts noone else, and science won't refer to a fetus as a baby straight up, and that's good enough for me.

Like it or not, not allowing abortions would be forcing your own moral/religious views onto other people and I am just not ok with that.

People who don't believe abortions are right do not have to have one. However they shouldn't force people who have no moral/religious views on abortion to carry a child they do not want.

I also dislike the fact that people who are against abortions have never really come up with a good plan that would deal with the problems of making them illegal. They are certainly not interested in taking in all the unwanted children themselves, and while they can go on as much as they like about putting the child up for adoption, they fail to realise that the number of people wanting to adopt is getting smaller and the laws are getting more and more strict.

The law should protect the person who is definitely human, not the one that might be human depending on your moral standing.

 

[Kierkagaard]

It would be such a shame to know Albert Einstein would not have affected anything in life had he not been born. You, Morpheus, may find the cure for a disease one day. Some individuals contribute much to the greater needs of people in general. We could be changing history, if you will pardon my folly.

We become judge and jury when we take a heartbeat away, knowing one dies when the heart stops beating. We have then taken a life.

I must very politely say some of us may very well know what is good and what is bad; it is evident, though maybe not to all. In your context I understand what you are saying, but felt the need to throw that into the mix.
I also would want a doctor that believes more strongly regarding the heartbeat. ; )

With only reading this (page 10) of replies, Morpheus has pretty much declared everything I'd have to say on this subject. But one thing that was neglected was a more direct counter-argument to this. I do appreciate Morpheus pointing out that environment and not the circumstances of our birth determine our character but it has to be noted that you shouldn't make medical decisions based on special exceptions. Yes it's true that SOME people's cancer might regress while on homeopathy, but that doesn't mean cancer patients should flock to something that no one can prove actually works beyond special cases. How does this apply here? There were over 16000 murders in the United States committed by non-aborted people last year. How many Albert Einsteins emerged last year? You can't really affect the statistics with abortion since I'm pretty sure you'll find that the murder rate does not increase or decrease in any notable way with the number of abortions. Though there are some who would argue otherwise.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....iki/The_Impact_of_Legalized_Abortion_on_Crime

And at the same time you won't find any sudden decrease or increase notable scholars either. With regards to what makes us human, I will side with Morpheus so I won't say any more about that but I think this just needed to be pointed out. Feel free to disagree with my points or expound on any you feel I was unclear on.

 

[CorLeonis]

Boiling this down as small as I can get it:

I am 100% pro-choice.

I will be pro-life when abortion or pregnancy is not used as a power play, on either the male or female side of the equation, when people are responsible for their children, the world is not over-populated, the foster care system works, and there is no rape.

 

[daydreamer]

I disagree with abortion 99.7% of the time.

That is all.

 

[CorLeonis]

I feel compelled to add something, because it often gets misinterpreted:

Being pro-choice does not mean that you think abortion is a good thing, or that you would choose an abortion, should the need to contemplate it arrive.

It means that you believe it should be legal for women to get an abortion, should they choose.

I had to add that, for my own peace of mind. Sorry if it's already been said.

 

[This]

I think abortion needs to be legal but I also think it's killing a baby, so it does piss me off a little when it's stated as "right" etc.

 

[Kierkagaard]

I disagree with abortion 99.7% of the time.

That is all.

and

I think abortion needs to be legal but I also think it's killing a baby, so it does piss me off a little when it's stated as "right" etc.

See

I feel compelled to add something, because it often gets misinterpreted:

Being pro-choice does not mean that you think abortion is a good thing, or that you would choose an abortion, should the need to contemplate it arrive.

It means that you believe it should be legal for women to get an abortion, should they choose.

I had to add that, for my own peace of mind. Sorry if it's already been said.

 

[ElSuave]

If I am the father of this child I am pro life--if she doesnt want to raise it, it's fine I willl.

However, for everyone else I'm pro-choice. The couples choice.

 

[aerosol]

Heh,
this is a controversial subject.

I'd probably say that abortion should be illegal in a perfect world, but that is not a practical approach or anywhere near realistic the way things are today. 1, because of rape, and 2, because in conscenting situations people are dumb enough to not use protection. A lot of(BUT NOT ALL) teenagers (and even adults) don't seem to care about the ethical questions that arise when it comes to abortion. They care more so about money, I think, so if the individual had to pay like 7,000 dollars for an abortion then I'm sure people would glove their love way more. Obviously, rape victims wouldn't have to pay anything. Aaand yeah people could lie and say they were raped to get out of paying, but that type of crap would be controlled and stuff in specific ways.

Someone said something like the first stages of pregancy being about as much of a human as a glass of water.
Haha.... No. Just no. Water will not turn into a baby 9 months later. That's a big difference.

 

[This]

Just a curious question; does anyone know when Gastralation occurs in human embryo's?

 

[dream echo]

While I don't think under most circumstances I would personally be able to have an abortion, I don't think my preferences should dictate the options available to others. I think the choice should be available. I am angered by the idea that some politician in a suit (most likely male) should have a say in what medical procedures I choose to undergo. I feel it should be a decision made primarily by the woman and her doctor, and her partner if he is still involved. Every situation should be determined on a case by case basis. For this reason alone, the option should be kept available. Ergo, I am pro-choice.

Let me tell you a story. A young, married woman became pregnant. She was already the mother of two daughters. The sex of her third child was determined to be male. Both she and her husband were thrilled, and eagerly anticipated the child's birth. Unfortunately, upon a scheduled prenatal appointment shortly thereafter, the doctor was unable to detect a fetal heartbeat. Their unborn son was dead. The hospital, which was catholic-affiliated, determined it unnecessary to induce the labor to expel the dead fetus from her womb; they told her she would go into labor naturally. She did not. She developed a fever and feared infection. So her mother took her to a women's clinic for an abortion, only to be told that, legally they could not touch her, despite the fact that her child was already dead, because she was too far along. They went to clinic after clinic, all over the state, but no one could help her.

This is just one of the many reasons I believe abortion should be considered a personal medical decision, not a legal or morality based one. We simply cannot judge others with difficult life circumstances that we have never experienced, don't know or can't imagine.

 

[aerosol]

[MENTION=3817]dream echo[/MENTION]
Good points.
I'd add to my reply that women who may become severely damaged (and possibly die) from giving birth should have the option to abort. And women in situations like the one you described.