54321
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Who are you? This is the second time you have a really good answer.
Ancient Technology & Events
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Who are you? This is the second time you have a really good answer.
Skarekrow
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I am the Walrus...goo goo g’joob...
JK
Just a guy with a passion for strange things because strange things keep happening to me.
Thanks man!
Skarekrow
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Is an amazing piece of almost lost history!
Supposedly an astrologic calculator of amazing accuracy, predicting comets, and all the movements of the stars and planets.
Faaaar before Galileo was a twinkle in his great great grandpappy’s eye.
Wouldn’t it be cool to know where and how it came to be?
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It is believed it was not the only one of its kind, too. Some have tried making modern versions of it as well. So fascinating. I wonder what Rhodes was like during that time.
John K
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I am the Walrus...goo goo g’joob...
JK
Just a guy with a passion for strange things because strange things keep happening to me.
Thanks man!
@Skarekrow is the one who puts the Alpha into Omega! Check out his Merkabah thread for a treat, but be warned - you may never come out again once you enter! :thumbsup:
John K
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It's quite a while since I looked at the science about how we entered the current inter-glacial period, but the rationale I came across then for the Younger Dryas seemed quite straightforward. There was a period of intense glaciation lasting thousands of years with sea levels up to 150 metres lower than now and vast areas of continental shelf exposed and habitable. Then about 12000 years ago it got a lot warmer. The theory I came across (backed up by massive glacial deposits in the Ocean) is that after a couple of thousand years of warming, the large continental ice sheets on the northern continents became unstable and collapsed into the Atlantic over a period of decades. All that ice messed up the ocean currents for a thousand years until it melted, leading to the Younger Dryas cold spell. I don't think we need to look for cosmic cometary visitors to explain possible ancient cultures disappearing as we entered the current inter-glacial period - they'd most likely be located on the habitable land around the continents that's now hundreds of feet under water, which may well have been inundated in a matter of decades. We'd need to look down there to find their remains!
There are some good documentaries about this - have you seen this one from the BBC ?
I can believe there may have been flowerings of civilisation at the kind of Summarian level tens of thousands of years ago, but not an advanced technological civilisation like our own - even if we disappeared without trace in terms of our artefacts our pollution will last hundreds of thousands of years and I'm sure will be quite unmistakeable to future archaeological scientists. It seems to me that civilisation has developed like the tide coming in, with a series of waves advancing then receding, but each one getting just a bit further up the beach before it falls back. Just hope it carries on like that!I
Or then again, perhaps Lovecraft was right, and the Earth was populated aeons ago by other beings, far more intelligent (and unpleasant) than us - now long gone ( ......... or are they!).
I find myself thinking that our contemporary viewpoint is mesmerised by advanced technology. If I had a choice I'd like to shake the hands of the people who invented speech, tamed fire, invented the first warm protective clothing and how to make it, worked out how to make the first tools and how to build the first warm, dry, secure dwelling places. Whoever they were, they must rank with the greatest geniuses of our own time.
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What if a utopia was created using the earth for power, stones for building, but the power of the mind to create our reality? We are not advanced as a society. We pollute the world and can't stop it, we hurt people and don't care, just to name a few examples. We see all the bad things coming, but we are powerless because we can't even get out of our own way. No, we are far from an advanced society.
If you want something to blow your hair back, Lovecraftian style, look up everything you can about snake legends in as many cultures as possible. You could start with the Naga. Their interrelationship with alchemy, yoga, religion. Then try to fit the puzzle together because nothing is created in a vacuum. All these things are related.
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The Snake with the Big Feet
Native American Lore
Long ago, in that far-off happy time when the world was new, and there were no white people at all, only Indians and animals, there was a snake who was different from other snakes. He had feet-big feet. And the other snakes, because he was different, hated him, and made life wretched for him. Finally, they drove him away from the country where the snakes lived, saying, "A good long way from here live other ugly creatures with feet like yours. Go and live with them!" And the poor, unhappy Snake had to go away.For days and days, he travelled. The weather grew cold and food became hard to find. At last, exhausted, his feet cut and frostbitten, he lay down on the bank of a river to die.The Deer, E-se-ko-to-ye, looked out of a willow thicket, and saw the Snake lying on the river bank. Pitying him, the deer took the Snake into his own lodge and gave him food and medicine for his bleeding feet.The Deer told the Snake that there were indeed creatures with feet like his who would befriend him, but that some among these would be enemies whom it would be necessary to kill before he could reach safety.He showed the Snake how to make a shelter for protection from the cold and taught him how to make moccasins of deerskin to protect his feet. And at dawn the Snake continued his journey.The sun was far down the western sky, and it was bitter cold when the Snake made camp the next night. As he gathered boughs for a shelter, Kais-kap the porcupine appeared. Shivering, the Porcupine asked him, "Will you give me shelter in your lodge for the night?"The Snake said, "It's very little that I have, but you are welcome to share it.""I am grateful," said Kais-kap, "and perhaps I can do something for you. Those are beautiful moccasins, brother, but they do not match your skin. Take some of my quills, and make a pattern on them, for good luck." So they worked a pattern on the moccasins with the porcupine quills, and the Snake went on his way again.As the Deer had told him, he met enemies. Three times he was challenged by hostile Indians, and three times he killed his adversary.At last he met an Indian who greeted him in a friendly manner. The Snake had no gifts for this kindly chief, so he gave him the moccasins. And that, so the old Ones say, was how our people first learned to make moccasins of deerskin, and to ornament them with porcupine quills in patterns, like those on the back of a snake. And from that day on the Snake lived in the lodge of the chief, counting his coup of scalps with the warriors by the Council fire and, for a long time, was happy.But the chief had a daughter who was beautiful and kind, and the Snake came to love her very much indeed. He wished that he were human, so that he might marry the maiden, and have his own lodge. He knew there was no hope of this unless the High Gods, the Above Spirits took pity on him, and would perform a miracle on his behalf.So he fasted and prayed for many, many days. But all his fasting and praying had no result, and at last the Snake came very ill.Now, in the tribe, there was a very highly skilled Medicine Man. Mo'ki-ya was an old man, so old that he had seen and known, and understood, everything that came within the compass of his people's lives, and many things that concerned the Spirits. Many times, his lodge was seen to sway with the Ghost Wind, and the voices of those long gone on to the Sand Hills spoke to him.Mo'ki-ya came to where the Snake lay in the chief's lodge, and sending all the others away, asked the Snake what his trouble was."It is beyond even your magic," said the Snake, but he told Mo'ki-ya about his love for the maiden, and his desire to become a man so that he could marry her.Mo'ki-ya sat quietly thinking for a while. Then he said, "I shall go on a journey, brother. Perhaps my magic can help, perhaps not. We shall see when I return." And he gathered his medicine bundles and disappeared.It was a long and fearsome journey that Mo'ki-ya made. He went to the shores of a great lake. He climbed a high mountain, and he took the matter to Nato'se, the Sun himself.And Nato'se listened, for this man stood high in the regard of the spirits, and his medicine was good. He did not ask, and never had asked, for anything for himself, and to transform the Snake into a brave of the tribe was not a difficult task for the High Gods. The third day after the arrival of Mo'ki-ya at the Sun's abode, Nato'se said to him, "Return to your own lodge Mo'ki-ya, and build a fire of small sticks. Put many handfuls of sweet-grass on the fire, and when the smoke rises thickly, lay the body of the Snake in the middle of it."And Mo'ki-ya came back to his own land.The fire was built in the centre of the Medicine lodge, as the Sun had directed, and when the sweetgrass smouldered among the embers, sending the smoke rolling in great billows through the tepee, Mo'ki-ya gently lifted the Snake, now very nearly dead, and placed him in the fire so that he was hidden by the smoke.The Medicine-drum whispered softly in the dusk of the lodge: the chant of the old men grew a little louder, and then the smoke obscuring the fire parted like a curtain, and a young man stepped out.Great were the rejoicings in the camp that night. The Snake, now a handsome young brave, was welcomed into the tribe with the ceremonies befitting the reception of one shown to be high in the favour of the spirits. The chief gladly gave him his daughter, happy to have a son law of such distinction.Many brave sons and beautiful daughters blessed the lodge of the Snake and at last, so the Old ones say, his family became a new tribe-the Pe-sik-na-ta-pe, or Snake Indians.
The Snake with the Big Feet
Native American Lore
Long ago, in that far-off happy time when the world was new, and there were no white people at all, only Indians and animals, there was a snake who was different from other snakes. He had feet-big feet. And the other snakes, because he was different, hated him, and made life wretched for him. Finally, they drove him away from the country where the snakes lived, saying, "A good long way from here live other ugly creatures with feet like yours. Go and live with them!" And the poor, unhappy Snake had to go away.For days and days, he travelled. The weather grew cold and food became hard to find. At last, exhausted, his feet cut and frostbitten, he lay down on the bank of a river to die.The Deer, E-se-ko-to-ye, looked out of a willow thicket, and saw the Snake lying on the river bank. Pitying him, the deer took the Snake into his own lodge and gave him food and medicine for his bleeding feet.The Deer told the Snake that there were indeed creatures with feet like his who would befriend him, but that some among these would be enemies whom it would be necessary to kill before he could reach safety.He showed the Snake how to make a shelter for protection from the cold and taught him how to make moccasins of deerskin to protect his feet. And at dawn the Snake continued his journey.The sun was far down the western sky, and it was bitter cold when the Snake made camp the next night. As he gathered boughs for a shelter, Kais-kap the porcupine appeared. Shivering, the Porcupine asked him, "Will you give me shelter in your lodge for the night?"The Snake said, "It's very little that I have, but you are welcome to share it.""I am grateful," said Kais-kap, "and perhaps I can do something for you. Those are beautiful moccasins, brother, but they do not match your skin. Take some of my quills, and make a pattern on them, for good luck." So they worked a pattern on the moccasins with the porcupine quills, and the Snake went on his way again.As the Deer had told him, he met enemies. Three times he was challenged by hostile Indians, and three times he killed his adversary.At last he met an Indian who greeted him in a friendly manner. The Snake had no gifts for this kindly chief, so he gave him the moccasins. And that, so the old Ones say, was how our people first learned to make moccasins of deerskin, and to ornament them with porcupine quills in patterns, like those on the back of a snake. And from that day on the Snake lived in the lodge of the chief, counting his coup of scalps with the warriors by the Council fire and, for a long time, was happy.But the chief had a daughter who was beautiful and kind, and the Snake came to love her very much indeed. He wished that he were human, so that he might marry the maiden, and have his own lodge. He knew there was no hope of this unless the High Gods, the Above Spirits took pity on him, and would perform a miracle on his behalf.So he fasted and prayed for many, many days. But all his fasting and praying had no result, and at last the Snake came very ill.Now, in the tribe, there was a very highly skilled Medicine Man. Mo'ki-ya was an old man, so old that he had seen and known, and understood, everything that came within the compass of his people's lives, and many things that concerned the Spirits. Many times, his lodge was seen to sway with the Ghost Wind, and the voices of those long gone on to the Sand Hills spoke to him.Mo'ki-ya came to where the Snake lay in the chief's lodge, and sending all the others away, asked the Snake what his trouble was."It is beyond even your magic," said the Snake, but he told Mo'ki-ya about his love for the maiden, and his desire to become a man so that he could marry her.Mo'ki-ya sat quietly thinking for a while. Then he said, "I shall go on a journey, brother. Perhaps my magic can help, perhaps not. We shall see when I return." And he gathered his medicine bundles and disappeared.It was a long and fearsome journey that Mo'ki-ya made. He went to the shores of a great lake. He climbed a high mountain, and he took the matter to Nato'se, the Sun himself.And Nato'se listened, for this man stood high in the regard of the spirits, and his medicine was good. He did not ask, and never had asked, for anything for himself, and to transform the Snake into a brave of the tribe was not a difficult task for the High Gods. The third day after the arrival of Mo'ki-ya at the Sun's abode, Nato'se said to him, "Return to your own lodge Mo'ki-ya, and build a fire of small sticks. Put many handfuls of sweet-grass on the fire, and when the smoke rises thickly, lay the body of the Snake in the middle of it."And Mo'ki-ya came back to his own land.The fire was built in the centre of the Medicine lodge, as the Sun had directed, and when the sweetgrass smouldered among the embers, sending the smoke rolling in great billows through the tepee, Mo'ki-ya gently lifted the Snake, now very nearly dead, and placed him in the fire so that he was hidden by the smoke.The Medicine-drum whispered softly in the dusk of the lodge: the chant of the old men grew a little louder, and then the smoke obscuring the fire parted like a curtain, and a young man stepped out.Great were the rejoicings in the camp that night. The Snake, now a handsome young brave, was welcomed into the tribe with the ceremonies befitting the reception of one shown to be high in the favour of the spirits. The chief gladly gave him his daughter, happy to have a son law of such distinction.Many brave sons and beautiful daughters blessed the lodge of the Snake and at last, so the Old ones say, his family became a new tribe-the Pe-sik-na-ta-pe, or Snake Indians.
. The alchemists, who in their own way knew more about the nature of the *individuation process than we moderns do, expressed this paradox through the symbol of the Ouroboros, the snake that eats its own tail. The Ouroboros has been said to have a meaning of infinity or wholeness.
*Individuation is a process of transformation whereby the personal and collective unconscious are brought into consciousness to be assimilated into the whole personality. It is a completely natural process necessary for the integration of the psyche.
*Individuation is a process of transformation whereby the personal and collective unconscious are brought into consciousness to be assimilated into the whole personality. It is a completely natural process necessary for the integration of the psyche.
There are things we don't know about the past, saying we are the most advanced without context is hubris at best.
John K
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Yes of course - I was thinking of the context of technology of course which is where quite a bit of the discussion had gone so far. In the future, if people survive, they may well look back on our age as children playing with fire on a massive scale. We do seem to develop culturally as well as technologically but, say, 300 years out of phase with it. In Christian mythology we are culturally a lot worse off than before the Fall.
I very much enjoyed your spoiler posts. Do you know Brian Bates' book, the Way of Wyrd? The way Snake was remade in the Snake with Big Feet reminds me of the way the hero in the book was "re-forged" in the spirit world.
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I imagine they are related in some way and in that likely lies some truth. Truth comes out and seeps through when people do art, short story pieces and other. Dont discount information because of its medium. The most amazing information comes from the most surprising places.
John K
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Skarekrow
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Yeah, I watched a documentary about it a while back where they were trying to make a copy using MRI machines and whatnot.
Wouldn’t that be great to find another...that hasn’t been sitting at the bottom of the ocean?!
You are too kind my friend!
I try to keep it interesting for everyone!
:<3lightblue:
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The Antykethera device, seemingly one of a kind, is evidence that clock making technology may well have been preserved into the modern era from the time of the Hellenistic Greeks. The fact that no other has been found make sense in that the materials used were precious to those who followed and were remolded into other things once there original usage was forgotten. Ancient Greek mathematical thought, while based on comparisons of "area" or relative sizes rather then a theories of numbers , bordered on the notions of the limit and the derivative, which were major breakthroughs in modern mathematics. It occurs to me that a device like the Antykethera may have been used by someone like Archimedes to make calculations similar to those used in Calculus.
D
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Civilisational collapse might sound scary, but they have rarely been 'complete' or apocalyptic.
Typically they have been partial collapses which later allow for more suitable (or rather, well adapted) political and social structures to inhabit the technological environment.
As ever, the analogy of evolution by natural selection is very apt. Think of technology as 'the environment' and sociopolitical structures as 'the organisms'. The most well adapted to the environment survive, while those that aren't tend to perish. For example, the technology of the High Middle Ages favoured smaller, decentralised polities because castles were such an effective defense, whereas the Renaissance bred larger, centralised states after advances in bureaucracy and things like brass cannon.
Civilisational collapse is just a particularly rapid or disruptive form of this very normal adaptive process.
In terms of spirituality, the same adaptive pressures hold - there is no real sense of teleology or progression here, just basic 'suitability'; whatever fits. Animism is particularly well suited to hunter-gatherer lifestyles, so if we bombed ourselves back into the stone age, that's 90% of the spirituality we would probably end up with.
So looking at the modern world, could we say that the nation state is still the best adapted sociopolitical structure for the current technological environment? Are there alternatives? Or to put it another way, what natural polities would emerge after a civilisational collapse?
In terms of the, let's say, 'prehistoric civilisation' talk, I'm not sure we can say anything meaningful.
However, there is a very definite empirical problem in that, if the evidence has indeed been obliterated somehow, then this would very negatively affect our ability to make statistical or probabilistic statements about the past, as these kind of calculations are made using the 'empirical archive' in its totality. Flaws in the structure of the archive itself (meta-empirical flaws) are very hard to detect and nigh-on impossible to correct for. As of now, almost everything we can say about 'civilisation' and its rarity is based on a handful of examples with extant evidence, but how many civilisations have existed which left no trace?
Personally, though the above is a valid point, I can't really see any reasonable way that an ancient advanced civilisation could evade detection for long. By definition, civilisations produce a lot of unmistakable rubbish, and you would have to go out of your way trying to explain why we can't detect it.
Typically they have been partial collapses which later allow for more suitable (or rather, well adapted) political and social structures to inhabit the technological environment.
As ever, the analogy of evolution by natural selection is very apt. Think of technology as 'the environment' and sociopolitical structures as 'the organisms'. The most well adapted to the environment survive, while those that aren't tend to perish. For example, the technology of the High Middle Ages favoured smaller, decentralised polities because castles were such an effective defense, whereas the Renaissance bred larger, centralised states after advances in bureaucracy and things like brass cannon.
Civilisational collapse is just a particularly rapid or disruptive form of this very normal adaptive process.
In terms of spirituality, the same adaptive pressures hold - there is no real sense of teleology or progression here, just basic 'suitability'; whatever fits. Animism is particularly well suited to hunter-gatherer lifestyles, so if we bombed ourselves back into the stone age, that's 90% of the spirituality we would probably end up with.
So looking at the modern world, could we say that the nation state is still the best adapted sociopolitical structure for the current technological environment? Are there alternatives? Or to put it another way, what natural polities would emerge after a civilisational collapse?
In terms of the, let's say, 'prehistoric civilisation' talk, I'm not sure we can say anything meaningful.
However, there is a very definite empirical problem in that, if the evidence has indeed been obliterated somehow, then this would very negatively affect our ability to make statistical or probabilistic statements about the past, as these kind of calculations are made using the 'empirical archive' in its totality. Flaws in the structure of the archive itself (meta-empirical flaws) are very hard to detect and nigh-on impossible to correct for. As of now, almost everything we can say about 'civilisation' and its rarity is based on a handful of examples with extant evidence, but how many civilisations have existed which left no trace?
Personally, though the above is a valid point, I can't really see any reasonable way that an ancient advanced civilisation could evade detection for long. By definition, civilisations produce a lot of unmistakable rubbish, and you would have to go out of your way trying to explain why we can't detect it.
The whole argument of the left has been that a powerful elite have controlled the workers and kept them down
What I have found by digging is that 'communism' was funded from its inception by powerful elites which is why it never delivered autonomy and freedom to the workers. All it did was enslave them under centralised systems of control that then sought to micro-manage individuals in every aspect of their life
The elites still want to do that
Nation states aren't the only viable alternative to centralised control by the elites no but they are seen as a barrier to global central control by the elites
Many people on the left still haven't woken upto the fact that the very same elites who are making their lives so hard now are the very same elites who are calling for a new system of centralised, collectivised control where those elites would be the technocratic class who controlled the system
That's called 'jumping from the frying pan into the fire' and people need to stop being so blindly naive about it
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because everytime a site is discovered certain groups get in their first to 'excavate' it for example the jesuits or the freemasonic 'royal antiquarians' who have been digging up sites for a long time
Skarekrow
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What is with your insistence on “left” and “right” and “liberal” and “neoliberal” and “zionist” and “communist” and “socialist” labels and finger pointing in every post?
Sure they meet in Davos and their secret moon base...but enough with the “communists are taking over”...they aren’t.
They just are not, lol.
What is your point in regards to lost technology or ancient tech?
That’s it’s being hidden?
To keep us down?
(That has been the case with Christianity and most major religions anyhow)
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sure the idea that consciousness precedes matter rather than what we are taught in our communist controlled schools that matter precedes consciousness (see communist materialistic conception of reality)