Animals and conscious thought

I think it's too hot out for spiders. I asked a passing ant instead if it realized it is an ant. It said it was busy. It also said that the colony cleaned up the patio - it was true, the thousand ants that were out my back door last night on the patio had all cleaned up every last scrap of dead bug and moth that was out there, and they all went home.
 
ThisIsWhoIAm said:
How does the fact you have life make you conscious?
Click to expand...
That is the question...certainly you wouldn't think that plants have conscious thought?
No one would argue that they are alive, but do they perceive their environment or are they just programed to grow and react to the changes in the environment?
sprinkles said:
I don't know, I'll ask next time I meet one.

I'm not sure if that's all it's cracked up to be because even humans don't often get that one right.
Click to expand...
I'm not knocking your answer, maybe they do have conscious thought, just playing devil's advocate.
From Wikipedia - "Many philosophers have argued that consciousness is a unitary concept that is understood intuitively by the majority of people in spite of the difficulty in defining it. Others, though, have argued that the level of disagreement about the meaning of the word indicates that it either means different things to different people (for instance, the objective versus subjective aspects of consciousness), or else is an umbrella term encompassing a variety of distinct meanings with no simple element in common."
 
Skarekrow said:
That is the question...certainly you wouldn't think that plants have conscious thought?
No one would argue that they are alive, but do they perceive their environment or are they just programed to grow and react to the changes in the environment?

I'm not knocking your answer, maybe they do have conscious thought, just playing devil's advocate.
From Wikipedia - "Many philosophers have argued that consciousness is a unitary concept that is understood intuitively by the majority of people in spite of the difficulty in defining it. Others, though, have argued that the level of disagreement about the meaning of the word indicates that it either means different things to different people (for instance, the objective versus subjective aspects of consciousness), or else is an umbrella term encompassing a variety of distinct meanings with no simple element in common."
Click to expand...

Well I believe selfhood mostly consists of illusion. I also believe that what is commonly called consciousness, really isn't. It's more like awareness of perceived awareness. Meta-awareness. But as in a schizophrenic, what one believes they are aware of may not be the case, as with a hallucination - since there's not a thing to be aware of, they are actually not aware except for the fact of being aware of this sensation.
 
Goldfish have shown signs of remembering. Insects show fear/aggression when they're in danger. I'd put the cut-off right around single-celled organisms and plant-life.
 
Lerxst said:
Goldfish have shown signs of remembering. Insects show fear/aggression when they're in danger. I'd put the cut-off right around single-celled organisms and plant-life.
Click to expand...

Plants maybe aren't aware, but ducks also aren't tall.
 
I would also like to add, that my most powerful moments of realization of my existence and my consciousness, have been without words. That's why i don't believe humans have the upper hand where consciousness comes into argument.. I don't believe in descartes' "I think therefore i am" - you are, even if you are not thinking. Experiencing does not have to be with words and logic. Words and logic might be able to aid in the understanding of consciousness, but not in experiencing consciousness. That's my take on the subject more or less.
 
I think that roach who was crawling on [MENTION=2240]rawr[/MENTION] was up to something....so there's that
 
ThisIsWhoIAm said:
I would also like to add, that my most powerful moments of realization of my existence and my consciousness, have been without words. That's why i don't believe humans have the upper hand where consciousness comes into argument.. I don't believe in descartes' "I think therefore i am" - you are, even if you are not thinking. Experiencing does not have to be with words and logic. Words and logic might be able to aid in the understanding of consciousness, but not in experiencing consciousness. That's my take on the subject more or less.
Click to expand...

Well "I think, therefore I am" means that if there is thinking, something exists to be thinking.

This does not mean that something must think to exist - that would be stated in reverse with "I am, therefore I think."

Otherwise... yeah.

And actually it should be "ergo" rather than "therefore"

Edit:
Or actually, cogito ergo sum. Which means I think, ergo - hence, knowing the preceding fact - I can conclude that I am.

Sorry about that. I just think it is important to understand something when refuting it.
 
Last edited:
sprinkles said:
Well "I think, therefore I am" means that if there is thinking, something exists to be thinking.

This does not mean that something must think to exist - that would be stated in reverse with "I am, therefore I think."

Otherwise... yeah.

And actually it should be "ergo" rather than "therefore"

Edit:
Or actually, cogito ergo sum. Which means I think, ergo - hence, knowing the preceding fact - I can conclude that I am.

Sorry about that. I just think it is important to understand something when refuting it.
Click to expand...

Ergo....vis a vis....concordantly...(your post made me think of this....lol)
[video=youtube_share;Ra5-H9ZBS1U]http://youtu.be/Ra5-H9ZBS1U[/video]
 
The lowest level of human consciousness is rated 4 on the GCS. A human that opens no eyes, makes no sounds, and makes no movements(combined) is considered in a coma or possibly dead. Pain can be used.......................Do we use this to judge lesser organisms? I doubt it. Plants do not open eyes, as they have none. Does simple movement denote a conscious life form? Doubt it again. Awareness may denote consciousness. If I have life and am aware, I have consciousness. Bacteria shows signs of awareness. I would say a cell denotes a certain level of awareness. The fact I am reacting to my awareness means I am conscious.
 
Skarekrow said:
Anything that can see it's reflection and realize that the animal is themselves.
Click to expand...
Why do you choose to define consciousness with this?

If humans did not have eyes then they would not be considered conscious, according to that. I assume you're referring to the mental faculty to do it. To that I would have to say: other life forms are conscious in ways that we are not. Their version of consciousness is simply different.
 
niffer said:
Why do you choose to define consciousness with this?

If humans did not have eyes then they would not be considered conscious, according to that. I assume you're referring to the mental faculty to do it. To that I would have to say: other life forms are conscious in ways that we are not. Their version of consciousness is simply different.
Click to expand...
I was implying the ability to be self-aware. I wouldn't say that a virus can think though it is considered alive. A plant is alive though not what we would call conscious...so what is the least developed (in terms of comparison to humans and our ability to think and problem solve) that is self-aware? Where do you draw the line for introspection?
 
Skarekrow said:
I was implying the ability to be self-aware. I wouldn't say that a virus can think though it is considered alive. A plant is alive though not what we would call conscious...so what is the least developed (in terms of comparison to humans and our ability to think and problem solve) that is self-aware? Where do you draw the line for introspection?
Click to expand...

What is thinking though, and why must a line be drawn anyway? It will likely be in an entirely arbitrary place no matter where you put it.

And besides, nothing really simple is thinking on quite the same level as a complex structure, but complex structures are made of simple things.

Personally I don't draw a line because I think line drawing is kind of strange and impulsive.
 
Skarekrow said:
I was implying the ability to be self-aware. I wouldn't say that a virus can think though it is considered alive. A plant is alive though not what we would call conscious...so what is the least developed (in terms of comparison to humans and our ability to think and problem solve) that is self-aware? Where do you draw the line for introspection?
Click to expand...

Introspection

Primates, elephants, some types of birds (some parrots and maybe crows)...

These are all the animals I can think of where they've made the same realization humans have after being shown a mirror.
 
sprinkles said:
What is thinking though, and why must a line be drawn anyway? It will likely be in an entirely arbitrary place no matter where you put it.

And besides, nothing really simple is thinking on quite the same level as a complex structure, but complex structures are made of simple things.

Personally I don't draw a line because I think line drawing is kind of strange and impulsive.
Click to expand...

niffer said:
Introspection

Primates, elephants, some types of birds (some parrots and maybe crows)...

These are all the animals I can think of where they've made the same realization humans have after being shown a mirror.
Click to expand...
A TV show came on last night actually and it was about the nature of consciousness in living things...not on a spiritual level...anyhow, they were talking about ants, just as we have talked about on this thread. They explained how each ant, sort-of acts as an individual neuron in the colony brain...passing information from one to the next until the whole colony has the message...and of course each ant is getting simultaneous information from the others. So it mimics in some way the way our own minds work, but on a much less streamlined way...there is no pre-planning or forethought...they just do, and then react accordingly (much like some humans we know....lolol jk).
They also spoke about how the prerequisites for consciousness are having senses. If our own mind were to be brought into this world and all stimuli taken away, touch, sight, sound, smell, etc. it is not likely that that mind would realize it existed at all...the potential is there, but would you call it consciousness yet, or potentiality?
 
Skarekrow said:
A TV show came on last night actually and it was about the nature of consciousness in living things...not on a spiritual level...anyhow, they were talking about ants, just as we have talked about on this thread. They explained how each ant, sort-of acts as an individual neuron in the colony brain...passing information from one to the next until the whole colony has the message...and of course each ant is getting simultaneous information from the others. So it mimics in some way the way our own minds work, but on a much less streamlined way...there is no pre-planning or forethought...they just do, and then react accordingly (much like some humans we know....lolol jk).
They also spoke about how the prerequisites for consciousness are having senses. If our own mind were to be brought into this world and all stimuli taken away, touch, sight, sound, smell, etc. it is not likely that that mind would realize it existed at all...the potential is there, but would you call it consciousness yet, or potentiality?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that it's true that ants have no forethought.

Leaf cutter ants display forethought in their cultivation of fungus. For example, if they end up with a bad quality of fungus, maybe it doesn't taste right to them, the colony will try a different type of leaf. Some leaves have natural toxins in them which also harm the fungus. If the colony discovers a type of leaf that harms their fungus cultivar, they will not collect that leaf again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top