Another Muslim Attack: Ohio State University

You should rename this thread - Flavus beats a dead horse.
Ciao.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
I don't think problems can be constructively addressed by sweeping them under the rug; so I occasionally sweep the problem into the open. Yes the replies are predictable, but perhaps people will either become aware of their aggressive denial of an issue, or at least grow weary of trying to suppress discussion, which is trying to find solutions.
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This part of your post stuck out to me. I have a lot of experience with this, and we're quite similar in the sense that when I believe something I will show evidence and studies and all of the guns out to someone who believes the opposite which is clearly not supported by the facts, and people will still refuse to look at the facts and will stick to their guns.

What I've learned though these experiences is that on hot button issues, facts are not enough to sway people. There has to be a certain level of empathy in order to reach a person. The method you are using is, "Well here are the facts and you are wrong and why are you all wrong stop being wrong". It's condescending and people do not respond to that approach. You have to ask-- why do people cling to these beliefs? How can I reach them from THEIR perspective, on what matters to them? That is how you sway an opinion.

Now, because to me their point of view is always incorrect, and I often have some unfair assumptions about the person, I just can't bear to put myself in their shoes and instead just decide, yeah you're wrong, screw you. You are dealing with a whole forum of INFJs here, and you are posting about a hot button issue. Now if this was an issue that no one had very strong opinions formed on, you may be able to sway them with a little bit of facts being shown. But this is an issue that you know a ton of members have strong opinions on and you have failed in the past to sway them. If something doesn't work, you have to try a new method.

Also, if you do enjoy trolling, there is nothing wrong with that. This forum is open to trolling but it must be in a specific format, so that everyone can easily see it's a joke. One method I have perfected is the "state something completely over the top and clearly false and argue it" method. As long everyone can tell you don't really believe it, bam, fun for everyone.
 
slant said:
This part of your post stuck out to me. I have a lot of experience with this, and we're quite similar in the sense that when I believe something I will show evidence and studies and all of the guns out to someone who believes the opposite which is clearly not supported by the facts, and people will still refuse to look at the facts and will stick to their guns.

What I've learned though these experiences is that on hot button issues, facts are not enough to sway people. There has to be a certain level of empathy in order to reach a person. The method you are using is, "Well here are the facts and you are wrong and why are you all wrong stop being wrong". It's condescending and people do not respond to that approach. You have to ask-- why do people cling to these beliefs? How can I reach them from THEIR perspective, on what matters to them? That is how you sway an opinion.

Now, because to me their point of view is always incorrect, and I often have some unfair assumptions about the person, I just can't bear to put myself in their shoes and instead just decide, yeah you're wrong, screw you. You are dealing with a whole forum of INFJs here, and you are posting about a hot button issue. Now if this was an issue that no one had very strong opinions formed on, you may be able to sway them with a little bit of facts being shown. But this is an issue that you know a ton of members have strong opinions on and you have failed in the past to sway them. If something doesn't work, you have to try a new method.

Also, if you do enjoy trolling, there is nothing wrong with that. This forum is open to trolling but it must be in a specific format, so that everyone can easily see it's a joke. One method I have perfected is the "state something completely over the top and clearly false and argue it" method. As long everyone can tell you don't really believe it, bam, fun for everyone.
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I don't think it is possible, or necessarily desirable, to convince everyone to agree with one. I DO think it is important for people to acknowledge that certain things bear CONSTRUCTIVE discussion (ie. that things are not actually perfect/ideal -and may be downright dysfunctional or dangerous- and that solutions need to be sought).

Certain approaches in trying to break through the Pollyanna mentality of "everything is peachy, so don't talk about it" may be more agreeable, or effective than others. However, given the specific problem, authenticity is also significant in this area. I don't gild, or sugar my approach because there's too much sugarcoating going around already, and it would be a farce for me to use left-speak discussing these topics.

I don't know that I enjoy trolling for the sake of trolling. I never derail others' threads (sometimes I'll derail my own threads). If there is a kind of trolling I enjoy, it's calling out fantasy with reality... but I don't know if that's especially what trolling is supposed to be. Perhaps trolls do enjoy it when there are tears after the realisation that Santa isn't real, and that she won't be coming down the chimney after losing the election...?

I do believe fair warning is polite, so my thread titles are usually pretty clear about the content... will ponder my approach more.
 
I didn't read Brightmoon's post at all in the same manner it has widely been taken. I think it was a fair point ^ and the argument was expressed in a balanced way, which seemed to me to be misunderstood- in that it was taken too personally, as an attack on U.S. media and politics.

I cannot agree with Flavus Aquila, that a politician, in her line of duty,- fighting for a tolerant multi-cultural society, can almost expect to be a possible target in her line of work. What kind of society do we want to live in? Well I know what kind of society I want to live in. She is a member of 'friends for Syria', and this makes her quite far left?

In fact politicians, and the leaders from all of the political parties came out to express their utter horror and outrage at Jo Cox's death.

Muslims are being targeted for more hate crime and prejudice, and that needs to be acknowledged, unless we want to create a ghettoised fragmented society with a strong voice within the far right - Jo Cox was trying to create solidarity amongst communities that are becoming increasingly fragmented due to the political climate of war and terrorism in the Middle East.

here in the U.K. or in the U.S. no one needs to feel patronised by these views being expressed. These issues affect both our countries - and indeed the entire world at this time,- and we should not, in my opinion,- tolerate hate crime of any sort, whoever it is committed by.

I also think it is right that we all stop for a moment and 'walk in the shoes' of those Muslins living in our Societies, and stop and think how reality might feel for them right now (bearing in mind that the vast majority of us share the same goals for living a peaceful and fulfilling and loving life. We all essentially share the same aspirations and hopes).

There was a brilliant documentary here in the UK about refugees leaving Syria etc. and other destinations and making their journey across to the West, it was called 'Exodus', we have to remember that these people are individual people, not just numbers or 'swarms' the media, and the language that is used tries to demonise these groups of people. Be aware of ideology and how it influences how you think without you noticing it.

I have to admit that I am quite shocked at the tone of the above post^ legitimising Jo Cox's death. She represented hope and tolerance and was a brave and beautiful soul...when we can kill those off and justify it to ourselves...then were really into deep shit in my opinion.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
I don't think it is possible, or necessarily desirable, to convince everyone to agree with one. I DO think it is important for people to acknowledge that certain things bear CONSTRUCTIVE discussion (ie. that things are not actually perfect/ideal -and may be downright dysfunctional or dangerous- and that solutions need to be sought).

Certain approaches in trying to break through the Pollyanna mentality of "everything is peachy, so don't talk about it" may be more agreeable, or effective than others. However, given the specific problem, authenticity is also significant in this area. I don't gild, or sugar my approach because there's too much sugarcoating going around already, and it would be a farce for me to use left-speak discussing these topics.

I don't know that I enjoy trolling for the sake of trolling. I never derail others' threads (sometimes I'll derail my own threads). If there is a kind of trolling I enjoy, it's calling out fantasy with reality... but I don't know if that's especially what trolling is supposed to be. Perhaps trolls do enjoy it when there are tears after the realisation that Santa isn't real, and that she won't be coming down the chimney after losing the election...?

I do believe fair warning is polite, so my thread titles are usually pretty clear about the content... will ponder my approach more.
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So I suppose the recommendation or method here with your threads is for those who this would be a bothersome thread, it is recommended to just avoid the threads. I think that is a fair point. I'm sure you already know I'm on the opposite side of this particular issue and I think our intentions posting on this thread would conflict- I would want to try to show you how your methodology of coming to these conclusions was incorrect, and you'd be trying to do the same, and we'd never reach an agreement.
 
brightmoon said:
When in 2013 British soldier Lee Rigby was stabbed by a deranged convert to Islam in London, the whole world heard about the "Muslim terror" sweeping England. But when a right-wing terrorist stabs to death a MEMBER of PARLIAMENT dedicated to helping refugees, we don't hear a word?

We must take right-wing hatred seriously. We must take Trump and Le Pen and all of the rest of these right-wing nationalists seriously.

Please, remember Jo Cox. Remember her face. Remember why she died.

And fight for her legacy. Don't stop fighting. And don't allow them to cover up her death, or to cover up how serious the threat we face is.

The world must know Jo Cox. America must know Jo Cox.
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Brightmoon said;
^These are all valid and true points...note, the world (not just America) must remember Jo Cox.
Lets not sleep walk into another time...similar to that created through Nazi ideology. Lets not let our fear blinker us to hate.
 
slant said:
So I suppose the recommendation or method here with your threads is for those who this would be a bothersome thread, it is recommended to just avoid the threads. I think that is a fair point. I'm sure you already know I'm on the opposite side of this particular issue and I think our intentions posting on this thread would conflict- I would want to try to show you how your methodology of coming to these conclusions was incorrect, and you'd be trying to do the same, and we'd never reach an agreement.
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I think it unlikely we would agree on responses to the topic of muslim attacks on non-specific people. We possibly might not agree that the topic relates to an actual issue in the world. However, the fact that we can actually discuss the topic, both in itself and in respect of frequent incidents is priceless to me.

It's people in denial, or who are utterly close-minded that bug me; not people who disagree with me. Indeed, often people who agree with me bug me because it is from a close-minded position. (The latter situation rarely arises on this forum, which is mostly populated by intuits, who always have actual reasons for holding non-groupthink views).
 
Sloe Djinn said:
but I don't understand the compulsion to start threads to antagonize other forum members.
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Exactly, why not go and find a forum for people who lean towards the far right?
 
slant said:
So I suppose the recommendation or method here with your threads is for those who this would be a bothersome thread, it is recommended to just avoid the threads. I think that is a fair point. I'm sure you already know I'm on the opposite side of this particular issue and I think our intentions posting on this thread would conflict- I would want to try to show you how your methodology of coming to these conclusions was incorrect, and you'd be trying to do the same, and we'd never reach an agreement.
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Who knows? I think we're probably both mostly free from massive errors in reasoning, so it would come down to how we respectively order/organise our priorities and what we consider to be proximate/intermediary steps towards better outcomes.

On this subject, the inability of islam to self-reform/change, evidenced by both its history and internal doctrine structure, makes me dismiss as unrealistic most of the approaches which constructively integrate diverse populations. It also makes it necessary imo to address issues of crime, including terrorism from a different paradigm than that which is used otherwise.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
Years ago I was present at a briefing that discussed Muslim immigration. One 'trivial' item really stuck with me: a Muslim population will always generate a certain level of terrorist activity
Do you not think blanket statements like that^ insight racism towards Muslims? (think of demographic bell curves), at a rate much higher than other populations... But (this is what bugged me), the projected losses and disruption are considered to be within acceptable limits.

To be honest I'm not surprised certain members are thinking of leaving this Forum, I find this kind of ideology extremely distasteful myself, not to mention nonsensical and bigoted. I

I post these threads because they are news worthy in themselves; but also because a significant number of people, for whatever reason, are in denial, or simply deny there is an issue with certain specific ideologies. Islam is a problem, in no small part because it is especially impervious to internal reform.

I don't think problems can be constructively addressed by sweeping them under the rug; so I occasionally sweep the problem into the open. Yes the replies are predictable, but perhaps people will either become aware of their aggressive denial of an issue, or at least grow weary of trying to suppress discussion, which is trying to find solutions.

If anyone is serious about finding solutions they need to start with dialogue. Not use language that causes further division and inflames more fear and hate.

Again, I won't quietly say the situation is acceptable and fantastic, while also quietly shrugging when people are periodically killed by disgusting muslim terrorists. (Would you rather have me ignore it, or victim-blame the grieving social network of the victims' classmates, university community, families, or country?)

No one seems to get the notion that a country should grieve for their slain citizens... and it doesn't help that crazies start harping on about being more tolerant of the perpetrators.
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I will not be returning to this thread anytime soon.
 
melissa* said:
I will not be returning to this thread anytime soon.
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Unfortunately ts this type of response thats makes sure solutions are never found. Ultimately people get tired of hearing what they dont like, whether factual or not so they stop listening. If it goes on long enough they just pick up weapons and go at it.
 
I think they are more likely to assist in the development of more effective policies.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Unfortunately ts this type of response thats makes sure solutions are never found. Ultimately people get tired of hearing what they dont like, whether factual or not so they stop listening. If it goes on long enough they just pick up weapons and go at it.
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Some people just cannot discuss some topics. I can't participate in the discussion of fashion without being totally disengaged, dismissive, mocking, and belittling... so I don't participate in fashion discussions. (Even though such discussions are important and legitimate for some people).
 
Flavus Aquila said:
Farewell dead horse. :p
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I think as long as the media gives attention to ISIS and says "this was the work of ISIS" then of course ISIS will say "why yes, this is our work." Since they are so great at reporting false news, why don't they say "this was the work of the Limp Teenie Weenies." How much you wanna bet ISIS won't claim that one. Idiots.
 
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