Are all men created equal? When will they be treated equally?

[Trifoilum]

I'm pretty sure that "equal" in this case does not mean "the same"

I would love to stress this again.
But the OP's question.....

Are we born equal?

.....The answer is really, really depending on who and when are you asking this question.

After all it is just in the recent past that a significant amount of people believe white people are born superior than any other colored people, and men are born superior than women. Even nowadays it can be argued that there are still people who believe in this.

The idea is a very recent one-- not to mention a very Western one.
In itself it is neither good or bad, or better or worse....just pointing that out.

 

[sprinkles]

Looking at differences is a pretty good metric for classism and elitism.

People barely tolerate differences WITH the all men are equal principle. Imagine how it will be without it.

 

[sprinkles]

I would love to stress this again.
But the OP's question.....

Are we born equal?

.....The answer is really, really depending on who and when are you asking this question.

After all it is just in the recent past that a significant amount of people believe white people are born superior than any other colored people, and men are born superior than women. Even nowadays it can be argued that there are still people who believe in this.

The idea is a very recent one-- not to mention a very Western one.
In itself it is neither good or bad, or better or worse....just pointing that out.

People here seem to think it's about equality of situation but really it's about equality of worth. A lot of times this basic sense of all humans being worth something is the only thing that stops persecution of the homeless for example.

It's not about the fact that people are born different, it's about the fact that people are not born inferior. If we open the gates of one person being inherently better than everyone else then we invite in all sorts of problems.

This has little to do with diversity and everything to do with not grading people into caste systems.

 

[Trifoilum]

Personally,
Let me ramble for a while.

To say that we are born equal might be offputting for some.
But the point I would like to raise is that there are different philosophical meanings of equality.

One would be that we are the same metaphorical seeds. This is questionable.
After all, we do have our biological differences. Some babies are born with deformities and disabilities; some of them more visible than others in early stages.
Not to mention the present scientific fact that what happens during pregnancy will influence the baby in one way or another.

Without including the politically sensitive topics like race and gender and class...those fact will make each babies different in their own way. Blessed, or fucked up; who knows.
Add those topics and we have the water even murkier. Because those factors affect our starting point.

But does it affect the kind of people we are now?

This extends to the other definition-- that we are worth equal. This too might be questionable for some.
After, humans are varied. We end up in different places, doing different things, with different states of mind and heart.
We have a different set of traits-- some better than others.
And we achieved different things, we put different things under different amount of time and effort and money under different rationale.
As a result, we grow into different flowers.

How are we worth equal? When the world judges us differently? When one is clearly better than the other?Not to mention that 'the rules' and 'the standards' of what is good and bad and right and wrong and normal and abnormal is not one and unchangeable.

And for the sake of discussion, I will let aside the superiority embedded there. (because yes, the inherent logic here is that Trait 1 is better than Trait 2 and people with Trait 1 deserves a better treatment than those with Trait 2-- and that is superior in nature, if not elitist.)

That murks the water because what A deems good may be bad for B.
And for some it makes the argument even more shaky.

<Continued below>

 

[Sriracha]

On a religious level, we are all born equal: without sin.

Realistically, no. Our bodies and minds are developed differently, giving some advantage over the others. Survival of the fittest does not imply we are created equally. However, I do believe we are created equally in developing the gifts we are able to share with the world. In our constitution "men created equal" merely implies that all men/women should able to receive equal opportunities.

I think where we are going wrong is society striving to make sociological backgrounds equal. For very few what has been done can be undone ... but that takes strength, and initiative from the victim ... not society. People find comfort in their habits, which is why it is difficult to rehabilitate many.

 

[sprinkles]

Also note the context of when this phrase was coined. At that time we were trying to get independence from the British Empire at a time when it still had fairly strict class systems and only the nobility and Parliament members could truly effect anything. Most common people did not have the right to vote back then.

That's what this is really about in all likelihood.

 

[Elegant Winter]

We're not all equal. We're often not even remotely equal. Our innate differences are quite noticeable and, even now, remarkably measurable. However, I think all beings are worthy of respect and consideration. We all are worthy of human rights. And no one's superiority or inferiority should be weaponized and used against them. I think this is generally what these discussions are about and I agree with what [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] has said.

I also believe that status, wealth, etc, should be acquired based solely on service and achievement. I believe that's the ideal. In this ideal alternative the able would have more than the unable, but I believe that's how it rightly should be.

Exceptional service and achievement warrant exceptional reward and status. It encourages a wonderfully healthy and competitive approach to life. And, well, humanity needs to be as strong as possible if it intends to survive in this cold and uncaring universe. You can't have everyone lazing about doing nothing. Enough of those people and humanity's doomed. Fairly straightforward!

 

[Trifoilum]

Given the equality is a word often spoken in sociopolitical context, arguably this is the one often meant--
That we deserve to be treated equally. Or as [MENTION=4423]Sriracha[/MENTION] said, equal opportunities.
And then some. When we can accept that none of us deserve to receive violence, disrespect, pain, lies, and other negative aspects of life.
when we can appreciate each other's differences and celebrate each other's similarities,
when we can see someone and their complexities (who they are, where they come from) in not just one standard but more,

And answering the second question here, it is when we accept that people are different and diverse, that therefore we can treat each other equally.
Just because we bear different colours doesn't mean we cannot be used in all paintings.
Celebrate everyone's achievements*. Judge everyone's failings. Acknowledge the different standards. Use the standards fairly.
We might start from a different place in this road called life; but each of us deserve to run on the same course.


That is, I think, equality.
At least one I can ramble right now. I might have it changed in the future. And there might be some other aspects I'm missing. Feel free to point that out.

*bows*

*) Right now, we aren't in that place. That is why a lot of accomplishments done by women, PoCs, and sexual-gender minorities are celebrated. That is why representation in media matters. But this is another topic on its own.

 

[j654dgj7]

When will all men that were created equal start being treated equally?

Great question.

We are all created the same way. If you are religious, I'm sure that most religions would agree that we are all equal in the sense that we all, more of less, have the same challenges and obstacles to conquer. We all must follow the true path to salvation or living a good life. We will then be rewarded in some way by a force greater than ourselves.

In sociological terms, the term "equality" has to be defied first. Where does equality start and end? We are all the result of birth, and we will all die eventually. Our mortality equalizes us all. It doesn't matter how rich or influential you are, you cannot escape death. Economically and in terms of opportunities for a great life, we are not created equally. Some are born into great wealth, some are born into an intellectual family, others are born into poverty and abandonment. Some have more than others, and that's a condition for life in this world as a human.

Then there is the philosophical debate. What is equality? What is justice? How can anyone claim to be able to define those terms? Are we equal if we have the same amount of money, or is equality concerned with intellectual stimulation? Is it just if I kill a person that has killed one of my loved ones, or is prison a more just decision? Can you rectify a poor decision through punishment? Justice and equality are political terms that everyone interprets differently.

I won't even begin to try and come up with an answer to those questions. I will probably spend my life trying to wrap my head around them and never come up with an ultimate answer. I hope I don't, anyways.

 

[CogentPursuit]

FUCK!!!!!

now that I got your attention. There is no equality or inequality. The concept in itself is stupid. Is a couch better than a television or a chair better than a table?

What is a chair without a table or a tv without a couch? We work together and that is what makes us a complete set and worthwhile.

 

[Skarekrow]

Why do governments strive to make people equal that are not? I'll be first to admit I'm different from most.

It only makes sense to practice this ideal of treating others as you would want to be treated, not just each in our respected societies but across the world.
People are not equal, but who is the judge?
Who decides what attributes make someone “better” than someone else or not?
It’s about treating everyone with fair rules that don’t set one group against another based on people’s own personal attributes.
By all means embrace your differences and learn from each other…God knows that I had the best damned Sopita at a Mexican restaurant last night…I’m glad for the simple things like that that others bring to our lives, but also the not so simple and more complex things - like learning to love each other as one human to another in spite of the differences in socioeconomic/race/religion/etc..

 

[just me]

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

This was truly a religious concept before anything else. The Bible states we are all one in Christ. All one. No difference.

I am wandering away to a chess set. Each piece on the board has limitations with each's uses. The game is played on a board of some sort. There are 16 pieces per side at the beginning. Pawns, rooks, knights, bishops, a queen and a king make up this tiny kingdom. One must protect his king while trying to take the other king. Quite a game.

I learned to play many moons ago. I did not lose frequently. Part of the game was thinking ahead. While I might have won more games than my friends, it didn't make me any different from them. I just played the game well. I won so much, I went to our local chess club to test my thinking. Everyone there make short notice of me. I continually lost game after game, playing a couple per person. This young girl about twelve years old asked if I wanted to play next. I was glad. She beat me as badly, if not worse, than everyone else in there. She asked if I'd like to play again. I told her I had been beaten up pretty badly already and needed to go home and lick my wounds. That is when I was told about books that showed which moves to make following others' moves, strategies, defensive measures, offensive measures, and the likes. I had been beaten by books: my experience was not enough.

The people in a church are the church, with God as head of the church. Most overlook this. Disease, IQ, color, race, money, old age and wheelchairs, are all one. They are to be equal to God. There are elders and sometimes deacons in the church to help keep the place on the right, biblical track; but, they are all equal in the sight of God. I strive to see through God's eyes with His heart, but that seems like an impossible situation. Yet, I strive for it. Politically, we are not like-minded. A lot of work must be done there, but some folk seem to just make things harder by wanting or expecting more. Lot of them go to church, too.

Born to die, huh? I was born to do two things: death and taxes.

 

[Trifoilum]

@just me

Do mind that a lot of people does not believe in the existence of a god (or God) and the afterlife. So for many the intellectual-spiritual framework is going to be very different than you.

 

[Trifoilum]

Also from the position of the disenfranchised, this question is going to be seen from a VERY different lens.

The idea that 'we are not equal' seems to be equated with 'we don't have to move towards equality' or 'the status quo right now is very good and fair' for a lot of people. And that is false, very false.

 

[Deleted member 10171]

I am wandering away to a chess set. Each piece on the board has limitations with each's uses. The game is played on a board of some sort. There are 16 pieces per side at the beginning. Pawns, rooks, knights, bishops, a queen and a king make up this tiny kingdom. One must protect his king while trying to take the other king. Quite a game.

Your story telling always puts a quirky smile on my face. Thank you

In exchange - here's one for you (I don't own the copyright):

Wisdom Better Than Folly (Ecc 9:13-18)

"I also saw under the sun this example of wisdom that greatly impressed me: There was once a small city with only a few people in it. And a powerful king came against it, surrounded it and built huge siege works against it. Now there lived in that city a man poor but wise, and he saved the city by his wisdom. But nobody remembered that poor man. So I said, “Wisdom is better than strength.” But the poor man’s wisdom is despised, and his words are no longer heeded. The quiet words of the wise are more to be heeded than the shouts of a ruler of fools. Wisdom is better than weapons of war, but one sinner destroys much good."

The people in a church are the church, with God as head of the church. Most overlook this. Disease, IQ, color, race, money, old age and wheelchairs, are all one. They are to be equal to God. There are elders and sometimes deacons in the church to help keep the place on the right, biblical track; but, they are all equal in the sight of God. I strive to see through God's eyes with His heart, but that seems like an impossible situation. Yet, I strive for it. Politically, we are not like-minded. A lot of work must be done there, but some folk seem to just make things harder by wanting or expecting more. Lot of them go to church, too.

There is no such thing as a perfect church because of our own imperfections......only thing to do is to keep on striving

but some folk seem to just make things harder by wanting or expecting more. Lot of them go to church, too.

What do you mean by this?

 

[just me]

@just me

Do mind that a lot of people does not believe in the existence of a god (or God) and the afterlife. So for many the intellectual-spiritual framework is going to be very different than you.

The essence of God being part of you bothers you? And others? I cannot help that. The Bible states God is love. Maybe it is beyond comprehension to some. Allow me to share what I know. If you do not believe as I, that is your choice. I'm not trying to convert anyone here. I took a half-wild dog nobody else could handle about a year and a quarter ago. I have gained his love and his trust without trying to beat anything into him. We now understand each other to a point. He pushes his bone toward me and looks at me, expecting a hand when there seems to be nothing to grab any longer.

I have found the story in the Bible to be the same for me. Does this mean you will not give ear to what I have to say because you do not believe in God?

 

[just me]

Your story telling always puts a quirky smile on my face. Thank you

In exchange - here's one for you (I don't own the copyright):

Wisdom Better Than Folly (Ecc 9:13-18)

"I also saw under the sun this example of wisdom that greatly impressed me: There was once a small city with only a few people in it. And a powerful king came against it, surrounded it and built huge siege works against it. Now there lived in that city a man poor but wise, and he saved the city by his wisdom. But nobody remembered that poor man. So I said, “Wisdom is better than strength.” But the poor man’s wisdom is despised, and his words are no longer heeded. The quiet words of the wise are more to be heeded than the shouts of a ruler of fools. Wisdom is better than weapons of war, but one sinner destroys much good."



There is no such thing as a perfect church because of our own imperfections......only thing to do is to keep on striving



What do you mean by this?

Stories tell so much. I love stories. Thank you for your kind words.

What do I mean? Shall the hand say to the foot, "I have no need of thee?"

Everyone cannot be the king or queen; but I add this: not everyone can be a pawn.

 

[rawr]

such a question/discussion is framed far too broadly to be meaningful or come to any kind of resolution.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

such a question/discussion is framed far too broadly to be meaningful or come to any kind of resolution.

Agreed.

Are all created equal? And either way should all be treated as equal? And either way what would be the benefits/disadvantages of treating accordingly?

 

[La Sagna]

The fact that that phrase is androcentric speaks to the fact that all 'human beings' are certainly not seen as equal or treated as so.