are you a free spirit or have you dated one?

Erlian said:
I dated a girl once who was definitely more of a free spirit than I was. She repeatedly told me to not have any expectations. I was like: "What? No expectations? That's impossible!"
I thought whatever you do I'm going to have expectations of your behaviour, simply because I like to think about the future. If she tells me she doesn't want to date me again I expect her to not want to date me and that she doesn't like me. If she keeps dating me, we keep kissing and cuddling I expect her to like that and to continue with that. She just said 'don't have expectations'. I couldn't do that. I'm going to have positive, negative, neutral or any other expectations. They're all expectations and I'm going to have them...

She didn't even really like to have too much friends, because she felt she was obliged to see friends at least once a month. She didn't want that obligation.

I'll gladly admit to obligations and expectations. That's why I don't want to date extreme free spirits.

Heck I even expect my future spouse to expect me to wear a wedding band :p ( @Delta )
To me it shows that she cares about me.
I want my future spouse to have expectations and I want to exceed them.
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I also don't have a problem with expectations. I think it's normal and reasonable that if you're going to be in a relationship with someone, that you will have expectations of each other. I don't really know what's so complicated about that. I think some who are free spirits use the no expectations excuse because they don't want to be responsible to anyone, or maybe they're afraid that the expectations of others are too much or unrealistic. On the other hand, I do have a better appreciation of them as individuals who don't want the basis of a relationship to be simply about expectations only. I understand they don't want to lose their freedom. No one wants to feel trapped or caged. Maybe they feel they will lose key parts of who they are if they give in too much to their partner's wants or needs. Although, the assumption would be that if you do care about someone, you would want to give them the best of you to be with them in a way that enhances the each person and relationship. But then this would be a normalized assumption, but seems problematic as an expectation.
 
Erlian said:
I dated a girl once who was definitely more of a free spirit than I was. She repeatedly told me to not have any expectations. I was like: "What? No expectations? That's impossible!"
I thought whatever you do I'm going to have expectations of your behaviour, simply because I like to think about the future. If she tells me she doesn't want to date me again I expect her to not want to date me and that she doesn't like me. If she keeps dating me, we keep kissing and cuddling I expect her to like that and to continue with that. She just said 'don't have expectations'. I couldn't do that. I'm going to have positive, negative, neutral or any other expectations. They're all expectations and I'm going to have them...

She didn't even really like to have too much friends, because she felt she was obliged to see friends at least once a month. She didn't want that obligation.

I'll gladly admit to obligations and expectations. That's why I don't want to date extreme free spirits.

Heck I even expect my future spouse to expect me to wear a wedding band :p ( [MENTION=12070]Delta[/MENTION] )
To me it shows that she cares about me.
I want my future spouse to have expectations and I want to exceed them.
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That's kind of on the extreme end of things but it still counts I guess. Some people aren't all sure what they want or like.

In a way you should be grateful for the warning. In biology this is called honest signalling. It's like when a deer jumps and kicks when startled - they're saying "I'm fast and nimble, don't try to chase me." So in a way she might have been warning you that she is fickle and prone to change.

This doesn't address whether one should be that way or not, but maybe it's best to avoid flighty people if they don't sit well with you. It'd be easier than expecting them to be different when they ALREADY don't want you to expect anything. That'd be a pretty tall order. If you don't want to date them then that is probably for the best, I mean that's kind of the whole point really. Not everyone wants to maximize attractiveness.

When you don't want somebody, some times they don't want you either. It's not like they're trying to rob you of anything (Usually. Maybe some weird emotional vampires manage to do it.)
 
i think a free spirit is someone that feels their spirit and values freedom. Someone that is appreciative

Enjoys that core ephemeral aspect of life...just because a flower only blooms for a couple of days doesnt diminish its glory. A tree that has been standing for a thousand years sees a lot and will have many friendships with everything around it, will be changed by them and will change the environment in turn, when it dies it will continue to live through the consciousness of all that remains around it. We may not seem as grand and enduring as the tree, but we all are.

free spirits try to understand people, and appreciate people for who they are, and dont try to change them. Will want to add and share, rather than wanting to take anything away. Will apprceiate what they are given and will ask for more if they want more. Appreciate that we are fluid and dynamic, and we will change over time...everyone will...everything will.

[MENTION=1669]pics[/MENTION], honestly trying to understand and appreciate someone, as you are doing...evaluating the patterns in the relationship...not trying to control them or make them meet arbitary expectations...means that you value them as a person, and value the friendship/relationship as its own worthwile entity. I would interpret what you are doing as free spirit.

However, i have to say....i have been called all manner of things...fickle, shallow, confused, confusing, committment phobic, disloyal, selfish, self absorbed...by some of the people i have had friendships and initmate relationships with. I cant say that all these things are not true...clearly they were to those people...and i am sorry that they were hurt.

I also think its fair to say that i dont make committements lightly and i take committments seriously. Sometimes having the sort of idiosyncracies that i do, i can feel compelled to give everything, and the other person will take it and i realise that there is nothing i want from them, and it becomes one sided. And then because i feel compelled to befriend other people and causes, and priotise whats more important rather than who is more important...it gets ugly. This is my fault, not the other persons. I accept responsibilty for this. I understand that im like this. This is why i am hesitant to enter a relationship with someone. In the past i 'fell' into relationships, or i entered them because of the wrong reasons, obligation and other non-lovey things. It would have been much kinder for me to end those relationships are lot sooner than i did, but in part it was guilt, obligation, and not wanting to give up on that person that kept it going. Clearly i was unhealthy then, but all experience has been invaluable and there was always more good than not. I know better now, and i have said no to many relationships since then. I want to enjoy life and have fun, i want a dynamic that feels equal and reciprocally wonderful and useful.

Its important to have the same core values and living styles as your partner. To be honest and have trust. Most other things dont matter. I Love everyone...im not looking for love, have never looked for it. What i appreciate is compatibility, appreciation, and understanding. Feeling anchored and free to fly...completely at home. It is entirely possible to love someone unconditionally, and yet be unable to live with them or have a long term relationship with them. Although i technically believe that i could live with anyone, it wouldn't be necessarily healthy or pleasant. This has more to do with the practicality of certain personalities trying to find common ground and common purpose. We all deserve to be happy. Knowing what we want and being committed to this is our responsibility as free thinking beings

i value friendship above all else...its hard to explain how much this means to me...i see friendship and creativity as the purpose of life. Friendship is a joy and never a chore.

I know it might silly, but i do believe that their are dual types. I think much of socionics is crap, and also much of mbti is crap. But i have noticed over time that the type i live and work best with, and that i feel most comfortable with is ESTJ. And i also know that estps always fascinating and fun, we become fast friends...but it ends up toxic and i end up playing their mother, while they desperately try to make me more like them. Yuck. I've also noticed over the years looking at my relationships and other people's, astrological positions of venus and mars seem to be highly indicative of someone's relationship preferences and styles
 
I dated Genie after he was released from the lamp. It was a weird time in my life.
 
[MENTION=4956]charlene[/MENTION].

My husband is an ES type.

He is pretty persistent and accepts my rejection of the mother/whore thing men can try and do. I'm not falling for that crap. Got better things to do with my life.
 
sprinkles said:
In a way you should be grateful for the warning. In biology this is called honest signalling. It's like when a deer jumps and kicks when startled - they're saying "I'm fast and nimble, don't try to chase me." So in a way she might have been warning you that she is fickle and prone to change.
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Yeah she was really honest. I liked that most about her. Never dated someone that sincere and honest.
I might be quite extreme, but then again I don't know what the future will bring. Maybe my expectations will change.

Yeah I've dated three girls seriously. Two I assume were ISFPs, they were too free or 'in the moment'for my taste. The third was an ISFJ. I liked how she somehow had expectations. Although in the end it broke us apart, because I'm going away for a long time in a few months. Any free spirit would've just enjoyed those months dating with me, but she didn't want to invest time in someone who goes away again. :/ I can understand her reasoning though.
I'm not at all saying that free spirits as defined in this thread are worse than non-free spirits or generally bad. It's totally what I kind of person I want to date.

I've never really liked pets either. They're too random. They can jump, bite or scratch. I could learn about animal behaviour, but I haven't. Maybe it's because when I was young we had a grumpy, sickly & old dog that was threatened/annoyed/jealous as I got a lot of attention and grew bigger and bigger. Not sure if my aversion for randomness/uncertainty and dislike of pets just correlates or is causally related one way or the other.
 
Erlian said:
I've never really liked pets either. They're too random. They can jump, bite or scratch. I could learn about animal behaviour, but I haven't. Maybe it's because when I was young we had a grumpy, sickly & old dog that was threatened/annoyed/jealous as I got a lot of attention and grew bigger and bigger. Not sure if my aversion for randomness/uncertainty and dislike of pets just correlates or is causally related one way or the other.
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That is interesting. I do follow the idea that we are a map of our earlier experiences. Hence I don't put much energy into emotionally charged statements. They usually belong to the person and not the other.
 
Erlian said:
Yeah she was really honest. I liked that most about her. Never dated someone that sincere and honest.
I might be quite extreme, but then again I don't know what the future will bring. Maybe my expectations will change.

Yeah I've dated three girls seriously. Two I assume were ISFPs, they were too free or 'in the moment'for my taste. The third was an ISFJ. I liked how she somehow had expectations. Although in the end it broke us apart, because I'm going away for a long time in a few months. Any free spirit would've just enjoyed those months dating with me, but she didn't want to invest time in someone who goes away again. :/ I can understand her reasoning though.
I'm not at all saying that free spirits as defined in this thread are worse than non-free spirits or generally bad. It's totally what I kind of person I want to date.

I've never really liked pets either. They're too random. They can jump, bite or scratch. I could learn about animal behaviour, but I haven't. Maybe it's because when I was young we had a grumpy, sickly & old dog that was threatened/annoyed/jealous as I got a lot of attention and grew bigger and bigger. Not sure if my aversion for randomness/uncertainty and dislike of pets just correlates or is causally related one way or the other.
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Yes. There's been talk on the forum lately about evolution and stuff, how people act a certain way because we evolved that way... it's not the whole picture because it misses signal theory.

Signal theory is displaying your character or fitness in a way which can benefit yourself or others. There are honest and dishonest signals. Honest signals are of course honest - if you display strength, you're really strong. If you're generous, you really have a lot to give away. This is evolutionary advantageous because it would ward off predators and help choose compatible mates.

On the other hand there are also dishonest signals, which in a way is like cheating, and dishonest signals are what a lot of human social structure has fallen into. Dishonest signals work for a while but eventually become deleterious. A dishonest signal is something like appearing large and dangerous when you aren't, crabs having large claws that they can't use to fight, or mimicking another species entirely to get its real benefits which you don't actually have. With dishonest signals you're depending on a bluff and when the bluff fails, you're screwed because you don't actually have the trait to back it up.
 
sprinkles said:
Yes. There's been talk on the forum lately about evolution and stuff, how people act a certain way because we evolved that way... it's not the whole picture because it misses signal theory.

Signal theory is displaying your character or fitness in a way which can benefit yourself or others. There are honest and dishonest signals. Honest signals are of course honest - if you display strength, you're really strong. If you're generous, you really have a lot to give away. This is evolutionary advantageous because it would ward off predators and help choose compatible mates.

On the other hand there are also dishonest signals, which in a way is like cheating, and dishonest signals are what a lot of human social structure has fallen into. Dishonest signals work for a while but eventually become deleterious. A dishonest signal is something like appearing large and dangerous when you aren't, crabs having large claws that they can't use to fight, or mimicking another species entirely to get its real benefits which you don't actually have. With dishonest signals you're depending on a bluff and when the bluff fails, you're screwed because you don't actually have the trait to back it up.
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Hmm, not sure what your point is regarding my post.

Either way, what you say about signal theory is very interesting.
Still signal theory is pretty easily explained from evolutionary origins. So I'm not sure what you mean by that. Especially since you also mention crabs etc. The earliest dishonest signals would be camouflage if I had to guess. That's all very much evolution.
 
Erlian said:
Hmm, not sure what your point is regarding my post.

Either way, what you say about signal theory is very interesting.
Still signal theory is pretty easily explained from evolutionary origins. So I'm not sure what you mean by that. Especially since you also mention crabs etc. The earliest dishonest signals would be camouflage if I had to guess. That's all very much evolution.
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Basically, signalling is a large part of social expectation. As you said in an earlier post, you like to meet and exceed expectations. It's all about other oriented behaviors, and people who meet expectations are more likely to be included, so a lot of things we do revolve around expectations.

So in a sense, meeting various expectations is a signal that one is willing to be compatible and therefore included. However it has gotten to a point where a lot of people end up striving to meet expectations, often times unrealistically and unnaturally, even to the point of dishonest signals - they start trying to be whatever you want, even if they're not.
 
sprinkles said:
Basically, signalling is a large part of social expectation. As you said in an earlier post, you like to meet and exceed expectations. It's all about other oriented behaviors, and people who meet expectations are more likely to be included, so a lot of things we do revolve around expectations.

So in a sense, meeting various expectations is a signal that one is willing to be compatible and therefore included. However it has gotten to a point where a lot of people end up striving to meet expectations, often times unrealistically and unnaturally, even to the point of dishonest signals - they start trying to be whatever you want, even if they're not.
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Yeah, but honesty is more important to me than meeting expectations. So if someone dishonestly meets one of my expectations and I found out later, I'll be dissappointed. Or rather: Honesty is one of my most important expectations. I expect others to be honest.
But I know it myself yeah. I've lied to myself. I've convinced myself of the lie. Creepily explained in self-dialogue (it didn't actually go like that). I said: "Don't you fall in love with that girl! She's one of your best friends and you know she's not into you. It's irrational to fall in love with her." I replied: "Ok, I promise I won't fall in love with her." Then the feelings grew. "Nah, I like her a lot, but I don't like her romantically." Heavily in love. "Nah, I'm not in love. I just like seeing/thinking/being /about/with her a lot."
I had the expectation that I could control my emotions, but I couldn't. The expectation was unrealistic and unnatural.

Are people with Fe more likely to meet expectations than people with Fi?
 
Delta said:
[MENTION=4956]charlene[/MENTION].

My husband is an ES type.

He is pretty persistent and accepts my rejection of the mother/whore thing men can try and do. I'm not falling for that crap. Got better things to do with my life.
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Lol....i love the way you said that...brilliant
 
My s/o is not what one would consider a "free spirit." He's very grounded and down to earth. I'd probably be considered the "free spirit" in the relationship. It's like Yin and Yang :p. We balance each other out.

I've dated a free spirit in the past, but he was the unhealthy type. The "relationship" did not last long..
 
Switchgirl said:
My s/o is not what one would consider a "free spirit." He's very grounded and down to earth. I'd probably be considered the "free spirit" in the relationship. It's like Yin and Yang :p. We balance each other out.

I've dated a free spirit in the past, but he was the unhealthy type. The "relationship" did not last long..
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I understand this! I can't say it would have worked well if my husband was also a free spirit. It is a balance. Some of my aspects he has taken on but not much. I try to be ready for his 'plans' .. sometimes. He thinks he is the shit and knows everything. I know nothing beyond what I find contextually enjoyable. We can laugh at each other a whole lot, which helps!

He knows he can trust me 100% though. I think he has the greater security as I love him... but he knows I would not pretend if I didn't. I don't understand people who stay with each other through obligations or expectations. I think that is dishonest. I could not waste anyones time and would not let them waste mine.
 
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