[NSFW] Around Suicidal People

[Trifoilum]

Disclaimer : .....I...I don't know if I should talk about this or not, remembering what happened here. I hope I'm not offending anyone with my thoughts; and I apologize beforehand. Feel free to call me out if I get out of line.

TRIGGER HEAVY : Suicide
====




Have you ever thought about perhaps, perhaps you're being part of why someone committed suicide?
What did you do about it?

Also, how do you live around people who are suicidal / act like they are suicidal?

I just... Don't know. This is based on real life context, but a significant part of it is...morality, rather than relationship / affection.
For me it's less about the relationship, only about dealing with the consequences.
And for me it's less about grief as it is about guilt and shame.
Dealing with the moral consequences of letting someone die. The moral consequences of potentially playing a part in why someone committed suicide.

I mean at one way, people are adults; whatever their decisions are. No matter how destructive their decisions are.
But at the same time that train of thought felt cold, hollow to me. Felt like a line of defense against thoughts of "what an evil, uncaring person you are, not helping them when distressed and look what you have done? Look at the blood on your hands."

And in certain ways, that part of my morality; that part who doesn't want to see someone suffer, to play a part on other people's suffering, much less -death-....That part is also the one that's abused. The weak point.


I guess if that happens, that happens; but some part of me appear to lurk behind the dark to eat me with glee, to laugh at me, if it ever happens.

This is a test of kindness; and the option so far seems to be to be cold, or to be a fool. I don't want both.

 

[Trifoilum]

RL Context:

In my life, I know two people who often spoke of suicide.
One is my friend; speaks often of giving up, of being worthless and perhaps no one will miss her if she's gone, perhaps she should just disappear, etc.
The other is my mother; speaks often about suffering, about grieving to death.

At the same time, both also has an unspoken desire; If you care, make me feel better.

Not everything makes sense (a lot of what my mother is spouting doesn't; for one thing, she lives comfortably. What she wants is essentially to have fun and go out and go shopping without working for it) but what makes sense for people in heavy mental distress?
Everything is exhausting. Listening to them, attempting to assuage, then seeing them fallen into the same destructive pattern...And repeating again, with no result. No one feels good, things were only piling for the worse, and then everyone hates everyone.
It's sad; seeing them fallen to same old pitfalls again and again; stuck in the same place.
It's aggravating; the unfair retribution (any attempts to say no = I'm out to get them, I'm going to leave them, everything is a lie I might as well be a spawn of Satan)
Everything is also terrifying.

On some dimension I feel it's disrespectful for them, to baby them and to please them again and again and again.
On another layer, they asked for it. Where is the line that separates tough love and coldness? Is there any line?

For some it's about love and care; not for me.
Me at the moment is more anxious of the guilt rather than the idea of someone I know committed suicide.
I'm exhausted, I'm fed up;
I don't wish them bad, but I also cannot keep this up.


Perhaps I should just take the risk and carry on.

 

[Tin Man]

You may not want to hear this but my advice is not to let those people drag you down along with them. You can be proactive, try to get them help, to see a therapist or something but you cannot be a baby-sitter. You cannot be a constant source of support.

People with depression or suicidal tenacities can suck the life from people around them. If you don't put some boundaries up, you'll be the one in a coffin.

 

[toska]

Explain to them that you do not have the resources to give them the help they really need. Maybe you could present them with a list of therapists and offer to make the call and set up the first appointment.

 

[Odyne]

Have you ever thought about perhaps, perhaps you're being part of why someone committed suicide?
What did you do about it?

I have. The series of events that led to their suicide had me think that for sometime, but after understanding what was going on and researching a little bit about suicide, I realized that I in fact played an insignificant part, and I was finally able to mourn their loss properly and let it go.

Also, how do you live around people who are suicidal / act like they are suicidal?

I stay away and leave them alone. Sounds bad, but I believe that people with suicidal tendencies need a long-term emotional connection and investment more than anything, and I am not capable of giving that to just anyone. Instead of acting like a hero and mess up the whole situation, I leave it alone and alert someone who truly has the ability to help a person with such needs.

 

[Trifoilum]

You may not want to hear this but my advice is not to let those people drag you down along with them. You can be proactive, try to get them help, to see a therapist or something but you cannot be a baby-sitter. You cannot be a constant source of support.

People with depression or suicidal tenacities can suck the life from people around them. If you don't put some boundaries up, you'll be the one in a coffin.

I found out that was the case.
Worse, the moment I slipped out and broke, it is also -them- who called me out for not being there / not helping / not being kind.

Explain to them that you do not have the resources to give them the help they really need. Maybe you could present them with a list of therapists and offer to make the call and set up the first appointment.

*nods* I could try that.

Have you ever thought about perhaps, perhaps you're being part of why someone committed suicide?
What did you do about it?

I have. The series of events that led to their suicide had me think that for sometime, but after understanding what was going on and researching a little bit about suicide, I realized that I in fact played an insignificant part, and I was finally able to mourn their loss properly and let it go.

I'm sorry it happened. May they rest in peace; and my deepest condolences.

Thank you for telling. My...inability to imagine what it's like in your place seems to be the drive for me to ask this question.

Also, how do you live around people who are suicidal / act like they are suicidal?

I stay away and leave them alone. Sounds bad, but I believe that people with suicidal tendencies need a long-term emotional connection and investment more than anything, and I am not capable of giving that to just anyone. Instead of acting like a hero and mess up the whole situation, I leave it alone and alert someone who truly has the ability to help a person with such needs.

*nods*
who would be that 'someone' ? A therapist?

 

[Odyne]

who would be that 'someone' ? A therapist?

Yes, a therapist or a mentor. I think a mentor who's been able to surmount their own suicidal tendencies would be able to help more because they would be capable of establishing a much more authentic rapport of trust and understanding, and I think they would have an easier time identifying the root causes of those suicidal thoughts and coaching the person in question on how to address them the proper way.


Personally, I dislike most modern therapists/psychologists. It seems to me that they have a textbook-driven approach, and the last thing a suicidal person wants is to feel like a lab rat of no significance.



But that's my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[Radiantshadow]

If I can't help, I step out of the way. Empathy is paramount in delicate situations, especially suicide; if I cannot provide it, and everyone has different circumstances and needs that must be addressed individually, then finding someone who can is, IMO, the most important thing in the world for them. Suicide is generally trademarked by psychological isolation, which should not be allowed to continue. Thoughts jump to fill silence and sometimes they jump too far and tragedy strikes.

Edit:

For all that, suicide falls into an ethical grey area. Perhaps the one thing every person has an innate right to is their life - what they want to do with it is their choice, regardless of the repercussions. An inherent part of knowing other people is an understanding of agency, that their lives are separate from one's own. On one hand, it would be selfish to keep someone from suicide to not be hurt yourself because it doesn't take into account their pain and possibly incurable circumstances; on the other, it would be reckless to end one's self without considering the source(s) of grief and whether it can, should, or is genuinely wanted to be alleviated. If someone is perfectly functional and rational, yet wish to terminate themselves, I do not think anyone should step in. However, both criteria are rarely together in cases like this, so assistance is usually warranted.

In the end, I believe either intense introspection or honest intercommunication is key in deciding how to handle this situation.

 

[Average]

Feeling pretty suicidal myself actually....

 

[Sloe Djinn]

I think that what differentiates tough love from coldness is the ability to discriminate between offering assistance that will develop a person's own self-worth/agency, and doing the work for them. The unspoken desire that you mentioned "If you care, make me feel better" won't work in that it avoids any sense of responsibility on the part of the individual who is feeling suicidal. "If you care, then help me find ways by which I can make myself feel better" is more like it, because you really can't give someone a reason to live, they have to find it within themselves. You mentioned your mom's proposed needs of being able to do stuff like shopping etc and not have to pay. Were these her own words, or yours? The reason I ask is that though I don't doubt the astuteness of your observation, I wonder what words she would use to describe her ideal situation, which would be a starting point as a long-term goal to work towards.

Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. Personally, in terms of family and close friends, I think that my conscience would be clear if I did what I attempted (regardless of success or failure) to build a suicidal person's self-esteem by helping them to develop short and long-term goals to find the happiness that they're looking for, and refraining from judging those goals ("That's so unrealistic!") while letting them find out for themselves if it's going to work or not. I would be willing to help out, i.e. maybe giving them a ride, etc., but I wouldn't do the work for them. If they failed at any point, I would want to be there to listen, and help them to try something else, but still not do the work for them.

 

[Kgal]

RL Context:

In my life, I know two people who often spoke of suicide.
One is my friend; speaks often of giving up, of being worthless and perhaps no one will miss her if she's gone, perhaps she should just disappear, etc.
The other is my mother; speaks often about suffering, about grieving to death.

At the same time, both also has an unspoken desire; If you care, make me feel better.

Not everything makes sense (a lot of what my mother is spouting doesn't; for one thing, she lives comfortably. What she wants is essentially to have fun and go out and go shopping without working for it) but what makes sense for people in heavy mental distress?
Everything is exhausting. Listening to them, attempting to assuage, then seeing them fallen into the same destructive pattern...And repeating again, with no result. No one feels good, things were only piling for the worse, and then everyone hates everyone.
It's sad; seeing them fallen to same old pitfalls again and again; stuck in the same place.
It's aggravating; the unfair retribution (any attempts to say no = I'm out to get them, I'm going to leave them, everything is a lie I might as well be a spawn of Satan)
Everything is also terrifying.

On some dimension I feel it's disrespectful for them, to baby them and to please them again and again and again.
On another layer, they asked for it. Where is the line that separates tough love and coldness? Is there any line?

For some it's about love and care; not for me.
Me at the moment is more anxious of the guilt rather than the idea of someone I know committed suicide.
I'm exhausted, I'm fed up;
I don't wish them bad, but I also cannot keep this up.


Perhaps I should just take the risk and carry on.

No. You should not take the risk and carry on. Then there would be 3 people who are walking around miserable instead of 2.

To your mother:

I would tell her that no one has ever died from grieving. That Grieving is the most healing act one can take for themselves and that she should give herself that gift. In fact - you could tell her this with such enthusiasm and keep repeating it to her that I bet she quits expressing her wish to kill herself to you. Find research to support the benefits of grieving - print them out and give them to her. Encourage her to grieve. Tell her to not stop when she feels like crying. etc etc. Point out you are a good son for giving her solid factual advice.

As for your friend:

That's a whole different story. I have been where your friend is and there is nothing you can do for them except love them. In fact - those words are a good mantra to repeat whenever they start talking about killing themselves. As others have pointed out - they have to find it within themselves to make the choice to stay here on this earth - or leave.

Your lesson here is to learn how to love these people and let go of the myth - or lie - that you are responsible for their happiness.

When my mother would call me and ask me to help her find a way for a painless method of completing suicide - I would take a deep breath - find my love for my mother - and say "I sure wish you wouldn't do it - but I respect your choice and will see what I can find". As time went on and each method I discovered would not satisfy her suicide conditions - she began to want it less and less. You see - what I was doing was validating her pain AND respect her as a human being with autonomy and free will. Each time I validated her pain and her as a human being - it helped her release her pain.

I never felt I was being a cold human being. I never felt I was being a "bad" daughter for helping my Mom and her suicide mission. Although a few people told me I was wrong and that I should argue and talk her out of it. I think people should have the right to live - and with that goes hand in hand the right to die - on their terms. Right?

So the important points here are:

1. Validate their pain.
2. Validate their right to determine their choices in life - their right to determine whether they want to stay on this earth or not.
3. Then feel your love for them in your heart - and tell them how that feels.
4. Let go of any attachments or expectations or ideas you have about saving them.

I wish you peace Tri.

 

[Trifoilum]

I have. The series of events that led to their suicide had me think that for sometime, but after understanding what was going on and researching a little bit about suicide, I realized that I in fact played an insignificant part, and I was finally able to mourn their loss properly and let it go.

Looking at myself; I found out that my mind (or is it my heart?) feels hard to grasp around that idea.
The insignificant parts turned out for me as 'moles that made mountains'; small things that caused big things--

What sort of research did you do?

I stay away and leave them alone.

Sounds bad, but I believe that people with suicidal tendencies need a long-term emotional connection and investment more than anything, and I am not capable of giving that to just anyone. Instead of acting like a hero and mess up the whole situation, I leave it alone and alert someone who truly has the ability to help a person with such needs.

If I can't help, I step out of the way. Empathy is paramount in delicate situations, especially suicide; if I cannot provide it, and everyone has different circumstances and needs that must be addressed individually, then finding someone who can is, IMO, the most important thing in the world for them.

Honest confession : emotionally, I find it hard to marry that knowledge with the ideal of being--compassionate. Which is weird because rationally and self-assessing myself, I rationally agreed with you both. I suspect there's a...sort of twisted ideal here. Saint-like ideals of being limitless in love.

There might be something I missed; does being suicidal has even deeper, more dire implications compared to other psychological distress / disorder?

Yes, a therapist or a mentor. I think a mentor who's been able to surmount their own suicidal tendencies would be able to help more because they would be capable of establishing a much more authentic rapport of trust and understanding, and I think they would have an easier time identifying the root causes of those suicidal thoughts and coaching the person in question on how to address them the proper way.

From my side; I think I used to be that mentor. Of course I might overestimate my own compassion/care.
Looking at the cause, there's a thought of 'this person is not salvageable.', but looking beyond that emotionally charged thought, there's a deeper layer of 'this person has so much negative things / traits / qualities happening that even I cannot help them.' Which I guess overestimates my own capacity as well.... and may be solved by referring them to another mentor/helper...

but my brain keeps wondering about the point when it stops becoming and starts becoming emotional vampirism. Am I making sense? Does that point even exist?

Personally, I dislike most modern therapists/psychologists. It seems to me that they have a textbook-driven approach, and the last thing a suicidal person wants is to feel like a lab rat of no significance.


But that's my opinion, I could be wrong.

I can see that (I tend to do that as well).
The way I see it it's a hard choice between the psychologist's emotional sanity and the patient's feeling of support... that probably doesn't make the problem disappear at all. But I guess being suicidal implies a certain level of distress?

Suicide is generally trademarked by psychological isolation, which should not be allowed to continue. Thoughts jump to fill silence and sometimes they jump too far and tragedy strikes.

I.. agreed.
On the other hand, though....I'm personally confused.
Without any victim blaming, and with an understanding that this is personal anecdotes;
the two examples I experienced; they....are trapped in that isolation. Rather than -unwilling-, I'll simply say they are unable to break through it for a loooong time.

And there are moments when I cannot help but see the isolation as self-imposed. I know that feeling, been there done that; the feeling of "I know this is wrong but I just can't help it and risk throwing the only good thing in my life, I'll keep this even if it keeps damaging me". They just turned it up beyond my emotional capacity...And for the record, I don't think it's their fault specifically; but what do you do with that? :| Being unable to help as you see them wither and wither..

And being on the other side of the situation...being the one who sees / listens to them suffer...creates an entirely different feeling.

For all that, suicide falls into an ethical grey area. Perhaps the one thing every person has an innate right to is their life - what they want to do with it is their choice, regardless of the repercussions. An inherent part of knowing other people is an understanding of agency, that their lives are separate from one's own. On one hand, it would be selfish to keep someone from suicide to not be hurt yourself because it doesn't take into account their pain and possibly incurable circumstances; on the other, it would be reckless to end one's self without considering the source(s) of grief and whether it can, should, or is genuinely wanted to be alleviated. If someone is perfectly functional and rational, yet wish to terminate themselves, I do not think anyone should step in. However, both criteria are rarely together in cases like this, so assistance is usually warranted.

I agreed. Essentially; are you even sane or rational during that moment of intense distress?
The way I imagined it; those who reached that zen-like level of suicidal ideation and acceptance.... would be placed on a different place entirely than those who committed suicide in the midst of panic, intense stress and grief and pain and helplessness. I personally don't know if I can, or should, do something about the former.

In the end, I believe either intense introspection or honest intercommunication is key in deciding how to handle this situation.

What sort of honesty?

Feeling pretty suicidal myself actually....

*hugs* I'm sorry to hear that; I hope you can get some much-needed help.

I think that what differentiates tough love from coldness is the ability to discriminate between offering assistance that will develop a person's own self-worth/agency, and doing the work for them.

Can you explain more?

The unspoken desire that you mentioned "If you care, make me feel better" won't work in that it avoids any sense of responsibility on the part of the individual who is feeling suicidal. "If you care, then help me find ways by which I can make myself feel better" is more like it, because you really can't give someone a reason to live, they have to find it within themselves.

I agreed. That's what makes me realize that...well, all the things I did, they were just bandages when they actually needed a surgery; amputation, even.

You mentioned your mom's proposed needs of being able to do stuff like shopping etc and not have to pay. Were these her own words, or yours? The reason I ask is that though I don't doubt the astuteness of your observation, I wonder what words she would use to describe her ideal situation, which would be a starting point as a long-term goal to work towards.

Well the actual words are something to this part (simplified; a bit):
"Give me money! I need to shop/eat out/hang out, it's killing me!"
"Well find it yourself!"
"I can't! I'm stupid and lacking education! Therefore pay it for me!"
"Why don't you decrease your amount of money usage?"
"Then what will I spend my time with? How cruel, you don't want to help me! You just want to see me suffer, aren't you? I'm sure you're on your father's side after all, he's probably bribing you with money and dining out and all that!"
"wat."
"I just need XXX amount of money! It's not much; I know he spent much more than that; why can't he give me that little? He probably wants to torture me and see me grieving to dead."

Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. Personally, in terms of family and close friends, I think that my conscience would be clear if I did what I attempted (regardless of success or failure) to build a suicidal person's self-esteem by helping them to develop short and long-term goals to find the happiness that they're looking for, and refraining from judging those goals ("That's so unrealistic!") while letting them find out for themselves if it's going to work or not. I would be willing to help out, i.e. maybe giving them a ride, etc., but I wouldn't do the work for them. If they failed at any point, I would want to be there to listen, and help them to try something else, but still not do the work for them.

That's a great distinction.
(...okay, revealing another aspect; I -did- try to help her, once. Me and my siblings. Opening a business. And we ended up ignoring the important part of the topic; her own wishes. She only did it because of our pushing; "Try to open a business! Do this! Do that!"; It does not work. AT ALL.

We tried arguing and persuading her to just see our point GDI, but...I think.... Retrospectively I think she just wanted a different thing... I dunno.)

No. You should not take the risk and carry on. Then there would be 3 people who are walking around miserable instead of 2.

That's what's happening here. *laugh*

On the other hand though, me being happy and fulfilled while they are wallowing and crying...that doesn't sound good to me.
Thanks to the case of my mother there's this stigma against selfishness; of trying to be happy regardless of the people around me. I feel like it's bad; like OMG YOU ARE FOLLOWING YOUR MOTHER STOP!

To your mother:

I would tell her that no one has ever died from grieving. That Grieving is the most healing act one can take for themselves and that she should give herself that gift. In fact - you could tell her this with such enthusiasm and keep repeating it to her that I bet she quits expressing her wish to kill herself to you. Find research to support the benefits of grieving - print them out and give them to her. Encourage her to grieve. Tell her to not stop when she feels like crying. etc etc. Point out you are a good son for giving her solid factual advice.

I guess you can call catharsis that...
I sort of see her game though; her grief may be genuine, but it's planned. I guess telling her that essentially beats the purpose?

As for your friend:

That's a whole different story. I have been where your friend is and there is nothing you can do for them except love them. In fact - those words are a good mantra to repeat whenever they start talking about killing themselves. As others have pointed out - they have to find it within themselves to make the choice to stay here on this earth - or leave.

Tried that. Her response; "but why should I live if I don't have anything to live for? (and then she ended up grieving even more about her own situation. Not that I dislike it or I'm bothered with it; but that sounds like the opposite result from what's intended to be, doesn't it?)

Your lesson here is to learn how to love these people and let go of the myth - or lie - that you are responsible for their happiness.

Yeah.
This belief is twofold;
one is the one I stated above, my mother actually created a stigma inside me that I should not be selfish; pursuing my own happiness while ignoring others (especially if they are suffering) is bad.
The other is the belief of competence + the belief of love. If I were to be a good person, I should be competent; if I am to be competent, I should also be loving; if I am to be loving...

Some of them are learned beliefs; some of them are my own ideals. UGH.

When my mother would call me and ask me to help her find a way for a painless method of completing suicide - I would take a deep breath - find my love for my mother - and say "I sure wish you wouldn't do it - but I respect your choice and will see what I can find". As time went on and each method I discovered would not satisfy her suicide conditions - she began to want it less and less. You see - what I was doing was validating her pain AND respect her as a human being with autonomy and free will. Each time I validated her pain and her as a human being - it helped her release her pain.

I never felt I was being a cold human being. I never felt I was being a "bad" daughter for helping my Mom and her suicide mission. Although a few people told me I was wrong and that I should argue and talk her out of it. I think people should have the right to live - and with that goes hand in hand the right to die - on their terms. Right?

Thank you for telling your story. I'm sorry to hear that your mom would do that to you; that's awful of her. Thankfully none of the people I mentioned above never did that to me; I personally think that's a really.....screwed attempt of emotional blackmail.

If I may wonder, did that state happen early or did you get to that phase after some sort of journey? What did you do / think about during the process?

So the important points here are:

1. Validate their pain.
2. Validate their right to determine their choices in life - their right to determine whether they want to stay on this earth or not.
3. Then feel your love for them in your heart - and tell them how that feels.
4. Let go of any attachments or expectations or ideas you have about saving them.

I wish you peace Tri.

Thank you. I wish you peace as well.

One point I'm wondering is this; If I were to 'validate' their choices, I wonder, would I be seen as 'encouraging' them? :|
Second point is; what to do if all you felt weren't love--- but uglier emotions?
Well...
One step at the time.

 

[youhemmein]

The problem with dealing with a suicidal person is that we think of them as being of sound mind and capable of rational thought. And for most this simply isn't the case. I have been suicidal and dealt with friends who were suicidal in the past. It does take a certain level of commitment and determination to be the resource that a suicidal person needs to pull them through. However, most of us don't have the ability or energy to make that kind of commitment. If I don't feel like I can give a friend the help they need, I find someone who can. They may resent it at first, but when all is said and done, their mental health and life are far more important than the little bit of resentment they may feel. Another thing to keep in mind is that when committing oneself to helping a friend in need, if your help does not change their mind, you could forever carry the guilt that you could have done more.

 

[Paladin-X]

I had a close friend slit his wrists. Luckily the wounds were not deep and he only bled a little bit. I helped patch him up and spent the night with him in the hospital. I didn't make a deal out of it. If he wanted to talk, I was there to listen, but I didn't press the matter. We just talked about the random things we normally talk about.

I never treated him any differently.

He never tried again.

 

[Bird]

Have you ever thought about perhaps, perhaps you're being part of why someone committed suicide?
What did you do about it?

I have. I still believe to this day that I was part of a whole that led a dear friend to take
his life. I recognize however that the role that I played was not substantial or the sole
turning point in his decision. I do know that I was the last person that he communicated
with before he was no longer capable of interacting with others. I felt for awhile that had
I accepted his offer the night he took his life that he would not have killed himself, but I
also recognize that that would have only bought him another day of life, not the promise
of a long future.

Also, how do you live around people who are suicidal / act like they are suicidal?

Suicidal thoughts are often rooted in much larger feelings than "I am unhappy". Of the five
people I have known to end their own lives there were much larger issues that they needed
to work through. I do not feel I am personally qualified to handle such a delicate emotional
state. It takes a lot of time and investment and I do not have the energy to help others
wade to shore through their fragile state. In my experience the best thing to do when
someone is feeling suicidal is to find someone that is qualified to help and has the understanding
and time to assist the suicidal in understanding their inclination to die and work through the
root of these deadly desires. Morally I feel I am doing my part to help someone by enabling
them to get the aide that they need rather than attempting to wrestle a monster I know
I have no right to. I will be there for a friend, I will not abandon them, but I will not pretend
to know how to help outside of finding someone to help them better. Having experienced
real suicidal persons it is pretty easy for me to note some key differences between those who
truly want to die and those that are purely seeking attention. If you are using the idea of
taking your life as a way to receive attention, I will abandon you physically as well as mentally.
I do not have time for such selfish behaviour.

 

[subwayrider]

*TRIGGER*​

I think about suicide sometimes.

I have thought about it since I was very young.

This isn't because I'm depressed, per se, -- I'm more content, achieving and motivated than I've ever been -- but because of...the utter futility.

To live is to accept the manner by which the world turns, and thus to be a willing spoke in its wheel.

To live is to forgo my impossible ideals; it's inescapable.

I do wish life were fair to all. I resent my most privileged seat, equally undeserved, as much as them at the bottommost rung of the human pyramid.

The things I despise...if I am to live, they must be integrated into my very psyche, and the event then swept under the rug of memory.

But, what is there to do but keep going? In all likelihood, to die is to lapse back into the state wherein we found ourselves before birth. Was it torture? Was it bliss? Was it merely dull?

And the Earth turns...

---

If this post is taboo or something, please delete it. I've already saved the text.

 

[Trifoilum]

The problem with dealing with a suicidal person is that we think of them as being of sound mind and capable of rational thought. And for most this simply isn't the case. I have been suicidal and dealt with friends who were suicidal in the past. It does take a certain level of commitment and determination to be the resource that a suicidal person needs to pull them through. However, most of us don't have the ability or energy to make that kind of commitment. If I don't feel like I can give a friend the help they need, I find someone who can. They may resent it at first, but when all is said and done, their mental health and life are far more important than the little bit of resentment they may feel. Another thing to keep in mind is that when committing oneself to helping a friend in need, if your help does not change their mind, you could forever carry the guilt that you could have done more.

You have a point. At the very least I think it's safe to assume the degree of grief and pain experienced by people who are in suicidal phase are much, much greater than people in a normal state (I'd suggest having a mental disorder would affect the intensity, speed and rate of the grief itself, not the amount)

And that's a good emphasis; putting their mental health and life over their resentment. A part of me wonders though; wouldn't the resentment add even more pain?

I had a close friend slit his wrists. Luckily the wounds were not deep and he only bled a little bit. I helped patch him up and spent the night with him in the hospital. I didn't make a deal out of it. If he wanted to talk, I was there to listen, but I didn't press the matter. We just talked about the random things we normally talk about.

I never treated him any differently.

He never tried again.

If I may ask, do you think the way you didn't treat him differently have any effect on his mental health? Did he improve on his life?

 

[Trifoilum]

I have. I still believe to this day that I was part of a whole that led a dear friend to take
his life. I recognize however that the role that I played was not substantial or the sole
turning point in his decision. I do know that I was the last person that he communicated
with before he was no longer capable of interacting with others. I felt for awhile that had
I accepted his offer the night he took his life that he would not have killed himself, but I
also recognize that that would have only bought him another day of life, not the promise
of a long future.

I'm so sorry to hear that, and I'm sorry beforehand if I'm upsetting you in any way. I hope he went in peace-- and that peace also come to you.

You raised a fine point-- with all the mess that's happening...all we can do is perhaps, giving one day; not a better future. They ought to work on it themselves.
I also considered the same; on the other hand...
I still cannot separate the fine point between helping and stalling; compassion and enabling.

Suicidal thoughts are often rooted in much larger feelings than "I am unhappy". Of the five
people I have known to end their own lives there were much larger issues that they needed
to work through.

That's true.
But honest question here, doesn't it all started with that simple a thought,
that went spiraled out of control, creating demons that eat one's psyche and mental even further?

I still don't get the-- difference. I get the difference in myself, but not other people.

I do not feel I am personally qualified to handle such a delicate emotional
state. It takes a lot of time and investment and I do not have the energy to help others
wade to shore through their fragile state. In my experience the best thing to do when
someone is feeling suicidal is to find someone that is qualified to help and has the understanding
and time to assist the suicidal in understanding their inclination to die and work through the
root of these deadly desires. Morally I feel I am doing my part to help someone by enabling
them to get the aide that they need rather than attempting to wrestle a monster I know
I have no right to. I will be there for a friend, I will not abandon them, but I will not pretend
to know how to help outside of finding someone to help them better. Having experienced
real suicidal persons it is pretty easy for me to note some key differences between those who
truly want to die and those that are purely seeking attention. If you are using the idea of
taking your life as a way to receive attention, I will abandon you physically as well as mentally.
I do not have time for such selfish behaviour.

How do you know the difference, if I may ask?
I still don't get the-- difference. I get the difference in myself, but not other people.
I'm not suggesting there are 'real' suicidal tendencies and 'fake' ones, but how do you differ between them; between methods to seek attention, intense grief and pain, and...that moment when one is -reaaaaaaally- on the edge?

Or am I wrong in my thinking?

*TRIGGER*
​

I think about suicide sometimes.

I have thought about it since I was very young.

This isn't because I'm depressed, per se, -- I'm more content, achieving and motivated than I've ever been -- but because of...the utter futility.

To live is to accept the manner by which the world turns, and thus to be a willing spoke in its wheel.

To live is to forgo my impossible ideals; it's inescapable.

I do wish life were fair to all. I resent my most privileged seat, equally undeserved, as much as them at the bottommost rung of the human pyramid.

The things I despise...if I am to live, they must be integrated into my very psyche, and the event then swept under the rug of memory.

But, what is there to do but keep going? In all likelihood, to die is to lapse back into the state wherein we found ourselves before birth. Was it torture? Was it bliss? Was it merely dull?

And the Earth turns...

This is..another aspect, isn't it?

There are people who committed suicide out of grief.
And on the other hand, there are people who are like you--how do I say this; what's inside wasn't grief; but a certain sort of understanding;
of futility, to borrow your words; I myself use the word 'hopelessness' aside from it but that's too charged.


If there is a point of no return, these people seemed to have long passed that point-- and is peaceful with it;
there is a serenity in being in peace with that fact, the way I see it.
A zen-like acceptance.

Nevertheless, thank you so much for telling me.

 

[Average]

*hugs* I'm sorry to hear that; I hope you can get some much-needed help.

Thanks, I am. I'm in regular contact with my occupational therapist, and I'm taking my medication as prescribed. I've just made a good recovery from my acute episodes of schizophrenia but im left with residual symptoms and an episode of depression...I'm still feeling cognitively retarded, and i have a mental pressure, like a pain with no source.....i feel like a hard drive with a missing peice....im also suffering from depressive symptoms such as low libido, hopelessness, worthlessness, and poor concentration......but people tend to think that im normal as there's no clear evidence of thought disorder, although my subjective sense is different....still, its really the distance that's killing me.

Im sorry your caught in the middle of that nonsense, it sounds terrible, you are a great person, I still remember you from around 2 years ago. You might remember me as Next or Oright :] anywayz, you really don't deserve to be held responsible for people who seem to take no responsibility for their actions.

Here to wishing you a convenient solution....

 

[subwayrider]

This is..another aspect, isn't it?

There are people who committed suicide out of grief.
And on the other hand, there are people who are like you--how do I say this; what's inside wasn't grief; but a certain sort of understanding;
of futility, to borrow your words; I myself use the word 'hopelessness' aside from it but that's too charged.


If there is a point of no return, these people seemed to have long passed that point-- and is peaceful with it;
there is a serenity in being in peace with that fact, the way I see it.
A zen-like acceptance.

Nevertheless, thank you so much for telling me.

Well said. I honestly think it's the most normal thing in the world to want to die. In America, though, if most people catch you expressing that sentiment, even if most people themselves feel it, but won't say it, they'll pester you over what's wrong -- or worse, send you to the loony bin.

What's wrong? The world is wrong.

I guess the acceptance -- the act of suicide and subsequent death -- is sort of zen-like. You stop your fighting; you cease your suffering. We strongly tend to see suicide as tragedy, but who's to say the deceased see it that way, even after the fact? Why do we so desperately cling to this mundane life? I've always supported the individual's right to choose to live or die. Of course, it's much more complicated, really...as with all things.