Bacon and eggs for breakfast and public relations

[Quiet]

I certainly have a lot of fum pointing out tinfoil haterry which stops anyone else making any sort of decent contribution to the forum.

[MENTION=3240]Jill Hives[/MENTION] post quality and retired staff.

If people are allowed to drool endless off topic essays then Ill drool what I want in response.

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] you are assuming that skipping your posts is a zero sum game for other posters: Beatings will continue until morale/quality improves.

InvisibleJim, do you have any thing to add to the discussion in regards to public relations? Could you please post an example of an interesting public relations event/situation in history or in present times?

 

[InvisibleJim]

InvisibleJim, do you have any thing to add to the discussion in regards to public relations? Could you please post an example of an interesting public relations event/situation in history or in present times?

I just provided one.

History may be more interesting regarding famous faces and international evemts, however, public relations also applies to our own direct experiences. Always remember that when someone wants to have a monopoly on opinion: Its a PR exercise and says nothing for the quality of their argument.

 

[Quiet]

I just provided one.

History may be more interesting regarding famous faces and international evemts, however, public relations also applies to our own direct experiences. Always remember that when someone wants to have a monopoly on opinion: Its a PR exercise and says nothing for the quality of their argument.

So, in accordance with you just said, are you too currently engaging in public relations activity to disecredit someone's arguement by mocking them rather than refuting their information on grounds of theory or facts?

Athough you have provided an example of public relations, could you provide a more interesting example in history or current events?

 

[muir]

Whoa, kind of an emotional response. All I said was that the guy wrote alien conspiracy theory books. He's also a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, too. That's well documented. Don't get mad at me for, as you say, "going by the facts" to judge his credibility.


Vatican Observatory:

Now, I've never been called a "Vaticaner," but I assume it's meant to be pejorative. Let's briefly go through this post. The Vatican Observatory is an observatory funded by the Holy See. The Church established it to show their support for science. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here... should priests be forbidden from doing scientific research? Do you have any evidence that there's anything wrong with their research? That it's not peer reviewed? Jumping to conclusions or making implications like this only makes you appear hasty in your judgment (and thus more likely to accept the writings of some conspiracy theorist).


Angels, Demons, and Aliens:

The church allows for the possibility of angels, demons, and aliens, but they're separate concepts. Angels and demons are purely spiritual creatures that have no physical bodies. Aliens would be physical creatures that may or may not have spirits. I believe in the possibility of both. You might be surprised to learn that the Church actually says very little on whether they think aliens exist or whether angels and demons affect us in our day-to-day lives.




Galileo:

It's funny you bring up Galileo; that fits in nicely with this thread. First off, there were mainstream scholars who disagreed with both Galileo and the Church, Tycho being one of the most prominent. Second, you have to understand that all of this happened against a strong Christian cultural background; the Bible was taken very seriously (just as, at the same time, the Koran was taken seriously in the Middle East, the Hindu Scriptures in India, the Confucian classics in China and Korea, etc.), so just because it seems ridiculous today doesn't mean it was irrational back then. Just think how people 500 years in the future will laugh at our science.

The Church (more specifically, the Holy Office) did indeed overstep by restricting Galileo, but Galileo was not very wise in how he handled himself and as a result had few allies within and without the Church. Pope Urban, the second Pope during Galileo's life, actually favored Galileo's views, but Galileo for some reason decided to publish an arrogant and insulting book, even though it had been rejected for two years. He was somehow surprised that this landed him in hot water, and was eventually put under house arrest for this remainder of his days. He continued his research at his home.

I'll come back to this but first i want to to look at your first post:

I feel like getting flamed, so here we go:

The Spanish Inquisition:

The shortest summary:
-The Inquisition was started to ferret out crypto-Jews (i.e. Jews posing as Catholics and going to church)
-It had little to do with Protestants, since there were almost none in Spain

-The Inquisition was only briefly under the control of the Pope
-King Ferdinand of Spain used his wealth, influence, and power to threaten and manipulate the Pope
-Ferdinand used the Inquisition as a political tool

-Torture was used in only 2% of cases, and never for very long
-They used the rack, waterboarding, and whipped the soles of feet with reeds
-Confessions during torture were not considered valid; those tortured had to repeat their confessions the next day first
-It lasted from 1480-1834; during these 354 years, less than 5,000 people were executed
-They didn't use the iron maiden, thumbscrews, or other exotic torture methods; these were invented later by unscrupulous businessen or propagandists.


View attachment 12265

Your opening line, in your fist post, was ''I feel like getting flamed, so here we go''

How I would interprete that is that you know that what you are about to post will cause an emotional response but you're gonna do it anyway

Now that's fine, I've got no problem with a bit of emotion and controversy, that's the nature of debate. You dangled a worm on a line and i bite it, so there's no point then saying in your second post: ''Whoa, kind of an emotional response''

You expected to get 'flamed' and you got someone pointing out how the Roman Catholic Church has persecuted and murdered thousands of people

You said that the inquisition was only looking for jews. Why does that matter? The point is they were looking to torture people. Who cares if they were jews, protestants or cathars?

You said they 'only' tortured in 2% of cases as if that's some kind of human rights achievement!

You say they used the rack, beatings and waterboarding. yeah these are all horrific forms of torture, the rack often dislocating joints, tearing muscles and ligamnets causing permanent injuries and waterboarding is a form of repeated drowning which can also cause permanent physical and mental damage.

It seems, especially when taken into consideration that your username is 'Lex Orandi' which is part of the Catholic Churches catechism, that you are acting as an apologist for the Catholic Church, in trying to make the Spanish Inquisition into a seeming non event in history, when it was an orgy of violence and fear

I avoided talking about the widespread child abuse that goes on in the church however because that has only more recently come to light but who knows how many children they've done that to in their long history?

Also I didn't mention how they edited jewish texts to help build their own phoney belief system built on guilt

Nor did i point to the fabulous wealth of the catholic church, headquartered in its vatican palace, with its vatican bank while it claims to be a religion of Jesus, a simple craftsman who was raised to anger by the moneychangers and how they brought commerce into the place of worship

Seen the Borgias series on TV? The RCC has been a haven for depravity, deceit and double dealing.

The catholic church claims its succession from peter but there are other sources claiming different lineages which have been suppressed by the catholic church who don't want their authority challenged.

I mean to me it seems like the RCC have a history of torturing, child molesting, lying, and hypocricy and of violently suppressing anyone who had a different opinion or who tried to advance the scientific paradigm of the day

 

[InvisibleJim]

So, in accordance with you just said, are you too currently engaging in public relations activity to disecredit someone's arguement by mocking them rather than refuting their information on grounds of theory or facts?

Athough you have provided an example of public relations, could you provide a more interesting example in history or current events?

Yes, most certainly. Because in my viewpoint an over-reliance on a singular viewpoint leads to a narrowing of the available information to the community. Simply everyone is limited to the progress of a minority and capability to grow towwards ones own destiny is lost.

Simply, that there are examples in history of societies and cultures only being accepted of singular viewpoints, often this is at their apex and starts a entropic trend. A very good example is the 'Colonial Empire' mentality of the British Empire during the Victorian era. An empire which was built through controlling trade and superior technology was overtaken by Germany and the US being open to innovations that the British had made but expanding outside of that limited mindset/tunnel vision mentality.

Always watch out for a lack of the allowance of individual development of opinion from others. Axioms, iconography and paradigms are as limiting in the future as they are powerful today.

 

[muir]

I certainly have a lot of fum pointing out tinfoil haterry which stops anyone else making any sort of decent contribution to the forum.

@Jill Hives post quality and retired staff.

If people are allowed to drool endless off topic essays then Ill drool what I want in response.

@muir you are assuming that skipping your posts is a zero sum game for other posters: Beatings will continue until morale/quality improves.

The posts i have made regarding the business links of various British and US business leaders with nazi leaders is documented fact it's not 'tinfoil haterry'

It doesn't stop anyone else from making a contribution to the forum; YOU are the one trying to shut down discussion

The posts were totally ON TOPIC and are arguably tied into the most important issue of our day which is how our society and system is structured

Many of the posts on this forum where people are expressing their dissatisfaction with things are all symptomatic of the system we are in......all i'm doing is trying to go to the core of it

You've said 'beatings will continue'......are you threatening me? Lol

Listen i've kicked your butt from pillar to post in debates and i'd do the same in real life, so don't try and threaten me

Stop acting as the thought police

the post count on these threads has been HIGH which means people are reading this stuff and are interested. If you don't like it go elsewhere

 

[InvisibleJim]

The posts i have made regarding the business links of various British and US business leaders with nazi leaders is documented fact it's not 'tinfoil haterry'

It doesn't stop anyone else from making a contribution to the forum; YOU are the one trying to shut down discussion

The posts were totally ON TOPIC and are arguably tied into the most important issue of our day which is how our society and system is structured

Many of the posts on this forum where people are expressing their dissatisfaction with things are all symptomatic of the system we are in......all i'm doing is trying to go to the core of it

You've said 'beatings will continue'......are you threatening me? Lol

Listen i've kicked your butt from pillar to post in debates and i'd do the same in real life, so don't try and threaten me

Stop acting as the thought police

the post count on these threads has been HIGH which means people are reading this stuff and are interested. If you don't like it go elsewhere

The post count on these threads are high because you keep making a gazillion posts on the same topic without introducing any new content. Everything else, including that, are your viewpoints and poor ones at that since I got a truckload of reps commending me for calling tinfoil. Because in my view a high postcount post has approximately 3,000 posts and 50,000 views. This is highly marginal.

fyi, you don't need me to point out where you've deviated from a true and fact based discussion of noted public relations expeditions to tinfoil hattery.

Wasn't "Rule by Secrecy" written by Jim Marrs? The conspiracy theorist who wrote books on aliens? Not disputing anything you wrote, just saying...

I'm not saying you should be silent, merely that you give everyone else an equitable chance to contribute. Who knows, we both might learn something if we make silence to allow others to speak!

 

[muir]

The post count on these threads are high because you keep making a gazillion posts on the same topic without introducing any new content. Everything else, including that, are your viewpoints and poor ones at that since I got a truckload of reps commending me for calling tinfoil. Because in my view a high postcount post has approximately 3,000 posts and 50,000 views. This is highly marginal.

fyi, you don't need me to point out where you've deviated from a true and fact based discussion of noted public relations expeditions to tinfoil hattery.

I'm not saying you should be silent, merely that you give everyone else an equitable chance to contribute. Who knows, we both might learn something if we make silence to allow others to speak!

I'm not stopping anyone from posting, but if you want to post a post defending sweatshops and slave labour or fascism or trying to say that the catholic church didn't really torture anyone but rather tickled their feet with feathers then i may well debate you on it!

I have introduced new content! I gave a gazillion examples of business dealings between western business chiefs and nazis......where else has that been done? It hasn't cos its new.

You are just trying to use insult and ridicule again!

The threads i have been posting in have been viewed highly in comparison to the average in this forum, therefore they are threads that are attracting high interest because they are important subjects which are coming into sharper and sharper focus for people as the economic situation worsens

People want to know whats going on

I've posted some posts above which show the documented business links between western business leaders and the Nazis. The fact many people are unaware of these shows what a good job the corporate PR machine has been doing in masking the truth

Now why don't you get on topic, as the thread starter has already asked you to, and discuss how PR has affected people instead of attacking me the whole time with nothing but empty ridicule?

 

[muir]

Yes, most certainly. Because in my viewpoint an over-reliance on a singular viewpoint leads to a narrowing of the available information to the community. Simply everyone is limited to the progress of a minority and capability to grow towwards ones own destiny is lost.

Simply, that there are examples in history of societies and cultures only being accepted of singular viewpoints, often this is at their apex and starts a entropic trend. A very good example is the 'Colonial Empire' mentality of the British Empire during the Victorian era. An empire which was built through controlling trade and superior technology was overtaken by Germany and the US being open to innovations that the British had made but expanding outside of that limited mindset/tunnel vision mentality.

Always watch out for a lack of the allowance of individual development of opinion from others. Axioms, iconography and paradigms are as limiting in the future as they are powerful today.

This is ridiculous coming from you Jim

YOU are the guy defending the status quo

The guys i'm criticising ARE the guys behind the British Empire. See my post elsewhere about Cecil Rhodes, the Milner group and the roundtable groups

I am the one challenging the current paradigm which is corporate fascism, YOU are the guy defending it

I am bringing new perspectives to this, while you are trying to defend the current sick and failing system!

I am exposing the paradigms, axioms and iconography used by these people and you are trying to stop me from speaking out about this stuff

I think you just don't like the ideas i'm putting across

I have argued for libertarian socialism as i see that as the way in which people are most free to create their own culture, hold their own beliefs and engage with the world of work on the terms that best suit them; the current system is looking less free by the month

 

[Quiet]

Columbus discovered America and he was a hero for destroying the indigenous tribes and stealing their gold.
The Pope at that time declared the indigenous peoples "not human" - in writing - so they could be slaughtered or enslaved.
There were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
Cow's milk is good for you - even though in all the history of man no one has ever been seen sucking milk from a cow....[sorry...i get pissed at manipulation of the masses for the benefit of a few]
There is a helluva long list....
Let's see we were at war in Vietnam for something patriotic....Oh yes... we were preventing Communism. It was going to destroy us.
Another piece of bullshit I grew up with... Duck and Cover. We were supposed to be protected from a nuclear bomb by running into the hallways of school, covering our heads with our arms, and crouching down against the wall....Yeh right.
George Bush Jr. was a god fearing christian. That meant he wouldn't lie to the people and do what's right for our country - right?
Marijuana is a gateway drug and addicting and leads to all kinds of immoral behavior. 1938 Reefer Madness
Whew....I'm gotta get some pies in the face for this list I bet. :lol:

Good list.

The one about cows milk is very interesting. Ive been trying to research the health benefits and effects of cows milk on the human body for six months now and I havent come much closer to an answer. Some of the research is pretty contradictory- especaily in regards to calcium absorption. Pretty scary is the possibility that cows milk contributes to osteoporosis. The only thing Ive established without a doubt is that most mainstream health and government authorities recommend cow's milk and that cow's milk is a multi-billion dollar industry with a lot at stake.
Personally I have always LOVED diary, but since learning so much about nutrition Ive significantly decreased the amount of milk and wheat I eat. Isnt it ironic that our bread and milk, our very staples that we grew up with may not be good for us after all.

In regards to marijuana- the public relations campaign has certainly been very effective. So effective that there has never been any data to support their claims and tonnes of contradictary data to descredit them. I will never undertand how some societies will advocate guns, dangerous junk foods and tobacco, yet demonise marijuana.
I think hemp is a more important issue that really needs to be addressed. The demonisation of hemp (and marijuana) had much to do with the monopolising and bullying of the cotton industry and Dupont. Hemp is such a useful resource, extremely sustainable and environmentally friendly. Particularly useful as an alternative source for textiles and paper.

 

[InvisibleJim]

In regards to marijuana- the public relations campaign has certainly been very effective. So effective that there has never been any data to support their claims and tonnes of contradictary data to descredit them. I will never undertand how some societies will advocate guns, dangerous junk foods and tobacco, yet demonise marijuana.

This one is really odd, to me its an absolute no brainer. It seems to go in the other direction, in Malaysia they used to bash on about the evils of alcohol, but loads of the locals were on wacky-backy.

 

[Quiet]

This one is really odd, to me its an absolute no brainer. It seems to go in the other direction, in Malaysia they used to bash on about the evils of alcohol, but loads of the locals were on wacky-backy.

I think its more of a cultural thing than anything else. Unfortunately cultures have little to do with facts.

I watched an amazing documentary by Cutting Edge on opium a while ago that challenged a lot of my perceptions on that as well. Opium used to be available everwhere and touted as the cure for everything! And then they invented heroin as a cure for opium addiction, and then morphine as the cure for heroin addiction. Heroin was literally touted as the 'heroic' drug. I am not advocating opium, but it seems that the demonisation of opium may have more to do with the production of morphine, and trade and political strife with opium growing countries than it has to do with the health risks of opium itself. It is definately something that I am interested in doing more research on before I come to any premature conclusions

 

[muir]

The Nature of Reality

Philosophers have debated for millenia over whether we live in a material reality (materialism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism) that is purely energy and matter or whether we live in a world which is mentally constructed or immaterial (idealism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism)

Many of the debates on this forum whether spiritual or political are related to this

We can read more about this tin hat stuff in the writings of many of the great philosophers such as Plato, Pythagoras, Kant, Hegel, Descartes, Marx, Fichte, Schopenhauer etc and in the spiritual writings on the following religious teachers.....well take your pick!

The Public Relations industry has been focussed on rooting people into a materialistic worldview because it's services are hired by corporations who want to sell us things

The corporations in turn see consumerism as a way of controlling the public. Adam Curtis has made a good documentary (the century of the self) on how the US government were disturbed by the outburst of energy from the German people (a modern industrialised and 'civilised' country) and also why most of their troops that came home as casualties were suffering mentally rather than physically so they held widespread psychological screenings of both GI's returning from WW2 and also of the public later on to gain an insight into the psychology of the nation. This sort of market research is still widespread through focus groups and polls

As the well respected journalist Adam Curtis demonstrates in his tinfoil hat free BBC documentary the elites used the findings of these studies to decide how they would shape their 'democracy' in order to manage the public who they saw as essentially not rational.

Hegel talked about an idea of 'thesis, antithesis and synthesis' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegelian_Thesis). Hegel has influenced the thinking of many influential people throughout history such as Marx and Hitler and others see for example the P2 Freemasonic Lodge scandal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due) involving terrorist attacks by fascist forces (the CIA were involved: operation gladio) to spread fear in the public about communism called the 'strategy of tension': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension. This included the bombing of a train in Bologna which killed 80 civilians....which has been echoed in recent times by the Madrid train bombing and the London underground bombing.

This idea is basically the idea that you present a problem, the problem then creates a reaction and from this you end up with a synthesis which resolves the conflict

'Conspiracy theory' writer david Icke has called this approach the 'problem, reaction, solution' approach

It has been put into use by many influencial people over the years. For example:

-Hitler burned down the Reichstag building in order to blame the communists and create a reaction in the public of fear so that he could pass the 'enabling act' which gave him dictatorial control of Germany

-the lie told by the neo cons that Iraq had 'weapons of mass destruction' was designed to create a reaction of fear in the public to justify going to war to secure vital oilfields in the middle east

-The US claimed that the vietnamese had attacked their ships in the Gulf of Tonkin incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Of_Tonkin) when there had been no contact at all. This event that never happened, when reported to the public, created the uproar in the public needed to justify taking the US into war

-rumours started by bankers in the 1930's caused runs on the bank. Central bankers control the money supply, which means they can make it plentiful or scarce. They lend lots and get people in debt and taking out mortgages and then they constrict the money supply leading to depressions in which the bankers can repossess homes and buy up business for pence on the dollar....that's why we have 'boom and bust cycles'....so the central bankers can profit....and that's why the top 1% now have all the wealth

-The sinking of the USS Maine

-The sinking of the Luisitania

-Pearl Harbour. There were many warnings to president Roosevelt about an impending japanese attack and the Admiral of the Pacific fleet James O Richardson was replaced in his command when he refused to issue Roosevelts order to move the pacific fleet to the highly exposed spot of Pearl harbour

Going back to material versus immaterial. there have been some great threads and posts on the forum about the role consciousness has to play in our world

The secret societies who influence events......and there's no need to don a tinfoil hat here, for example the membership to the Freemasons of various US presidents and politicans is well documented. Also their membership to groups like the skull and bones are well documented......these societies are passing down the teachings of various philosophers such as Plato and Pythagoras

These are the people who create consumerism, Public Relations, the mainstream media and they have certain ideas about the nature of reality and use these to shape our perception of reality, while pushing materialism onto us

Science is now beginning to challenge some of the old ideas about the nature of our reality and the internet is spreading ideas for example about the idea of a holographic universe.

It seems what many of the mystics have been saying about the world being an illusion might have some validity

perhaps one of the big paradigm shifts in our time is going to be how people perceive the nature of reality?

Our revelations however liberating for us, will not be welcomed by the elites however who have been trying to keep a choke hold on the way we percieve the world as strong as the one the Catholic Church used to try and keep when it told us all the earth was at the centre of the universe!

These discoveries i believe could transform our society into something much better by radically altering our perceptions of reality and of our priorities

 

[Lex Orandi]

Let me go line by line through this.


Your opening line, in your fist post, was ''I feel like getting flamed, so here we go''

How I would interprete that is that you know that what you are about to post will cause an emotional response but you're gonna do it anyway

Now that's fine, I've got no problem with a bit of emotion and controversy, that's the nature of debate. You dangled a worm on a line and i bite it, so there's no point then saying in your second post: ''Whoa, kind of an emotional response''

You expected to get 'flamed' and you got someone pointing out how the Roman Catholic Church has persecuted and murdered thousands of people

I was being silly when I posted that, hinting that it would probably cause some sort of controversy. Maybe my sense of humor needs work. I was under the impression we were all mature enough to handle controversial topics without getting emotional. So, if this has somehow angered you in any way, I apologize.


You said that the inquisition was only looking for jews. Why does that matter? The point is they were looking to torture people. Who cares if they were jews, protestants or cathars?

It matters because I've run into a lot of people claiming that it was against Protestants or Muslims, which is simply untrue. That's all. Just clarifying a misconception. Also, they were not "looking to torture people." If you would take off your 21-century, secular glasses for a second, you would understand why people took the false practice of the religion seriously. It's not because they wanted to meddle in others' lives, but because they feared demons and the devil and believed that sacrilege (of which illicitly receiving sacraments is a form) was dangerous to the spiritual and physical well-being of the community. I'm not saying this view is right or wrong, but simply that that was the reason it was done.



You said they 'only' tortured in 2% of cases as if that's some kind of human rights achievement!

You say they used the rack, beatings and waterboarding. yeah these are all horrific forms of torture, the rack often dislocating joints, tearing muscles and ligamnets causing permanent injuries and waterboarding is a form of repeated drowning which can also cause permanent physical and mental damage.

If you had done any reading, you would know that torture in only 2% of cases was very low by contemporary standards. Also, the forms of torture were relatively humane, see the breaking wheel and drawing and quartering. Keep in mind that I'm not debating the morality of torture here (which I believe is wrong), but simply showing that there was much less than is claimed and that it was much less exotic and horrible.

As for waterboarding, I don't believe the media hype. During training, my father was waterboarded, my uncle was waterboarded, most people involved in intelligence communities (and some portions of the military) are waterboarded. I will probably be waterboarded if I pursue a particular career track. I think you shouldn't be so quick to believe everything you hear on television, but you may disagree. Let's save this debate for later.


It seems, especially when taken into consideration that your username is 'Lex Orandi' which is part of the Catholic Churches catechism, that you are acting as an apologist for the Catholic Church, in trying to make the Spanish Inquisition into a seeming non event in history, when it was an orgy of violence and fear

Sure, you could look at it that way. Or, you could be a man (or woman) and eat your own words:
Why don't you go by the facts?



I avoided talking about the widespread child abuse that goes on in the church however because that has only more recently come to light but who knows how many children they've done that to in their long history?

I don't want to go into this debate, because it usually ends in finger-pointing and yelling, but there are studies by people like this woman that never see the light of day. This is not to say that child abuse is not a horrible thing; in fact, I think it's one of the worst crimes one can commit. Also, I wholeheartedly agree that when people who are supposed to be moral exemplars worthy of trust, the crime is much, much more scandalizing. This is just to highlight that the "widespread child abuse" isn't a "Catholic problem" like people pretend it is, and needs to be attacked on all fronts in society. I could also pull up some stats on Protestant ministers' abuse as well. If you're interested in this topic, you should read about human trafficking. That's some really chilling stuff as well.



Nor did i point to the fabulous wealth of the catholic church, headquartered in its vatican palace, with its vatican bank while it claims to be a religion of Jesus, a simple craftsman who was raised to anger by the moneychangers and how they brought commerce into the place of worship

Like many of your claims, this isn't very well substantiated. I assume you're talking in part about the valuable art that Church keeps. All of it us open for viewing to the public, so you could make the same argument about the Smithsonian.
If you're talking about precious stones and metals in churches and on chalices, the tradition of giving the most valuable or prized of your possessions to a deity goes back a long way in human history, from Semitic religions' sacrifices to nature gods to Chinese offerings of produce to the sky god. This is just a modern manifestation, like when people wear nice clothes on Sunday.
If you're talking about the Vatican bank, it does indeed invest, but the proceeds are used only for charitable purposes.
I can provide sources for this stuff, but I don't feel like you'll read them anyway.

As for the incident with the moneychangers, I think that would relate more to the selling of indulgences that went on in the middle ages, things like that. We can talk more about that if you like.


Seen the Borgias series on TV? The RCC has been a haven for depravity, deceit and double dealing.


The Borgias were a terrible family, but I wouldn't trust TV to give you the best account, as they often distort things (for better or worse) just to make good television. The Church is a no doubt a flawed organization, administered as it were by imperfect humans. That's not a dismissal of their crimes, but an admission that there is corruption in the Church. Clergymen are not (necessarily) saints.



Also I didn't mention how they edited jewish texts to help build their own phoney belief system built on guilt

The catholic church claims its succession from peter but there are other sources claiming different lineages which have been suppressed by the catholic church who don't want their authority challenged.

I mean to me it seems like the RCC have a history of torturing, child molesting, lying, and hypocricy and of violently suppressing anyone who had a different opinion or who tried to advance the scientific paradigm of the day

The rest of this is either new to me, unsubstantiated, or a sweeping generalization. If it's the first one, please give me sources, as I'd be interested to read about these things.

Also, I'd like to say that nowhere in this thread have I excused any real crimes of the Catholic church. I have simply put them in proper proportion.

Also, let's try to keep the tone more civil! I'm not trying to be rude or provocative, but you seem a little worked up and angry when you post.

 

[technics]

So how did bacon and eggs become such a popular breakfast option?

I recommend you watch the film The Century of the Self by Adam Curtis. It's a very good documentary on Bernays.

 

[Nixie]

I am with Invisible Jim. I think you fail when you don't realize that everyone has some type of agenda. Your exerpts aren't any more or less credible than any other evidence. Being skeptical isn't a crime.

 

[Quiet]

I recommend you watch the film The Century of the Self by Adam Curtis. It's a very good documentary on Bernays.

Yes that is a great doco film! Ive even considered buying a copy, but Im still too stingy.

And The Corporation is a good one too

 

[muir]

I am with Invisible Jim. I think you fail when you don't realize that everyone has some type of agenda. Your exerpts aren't any more or less credible than any other evidence. Being skeptical isn't a crime.

Is this directed at me?

If so who says that i don't realise that everyone has an agenda?

Some agendas are geared towards improving the lives of people and others are geared towards controlling people, so i think theres grounds for judging agendas in a moral light. I think funding fascists and war is moraly reprehensible and i think people should know that the people who funded Hitler are the same people who still own and run the central banks eg the federal reserve and are responsible for the current economic situation

I have provided 'evidence' i've not heard any evidence counter to that

Being skeptical is definately not a crime. i am skeptical of the current system, Jim is skeptical of me being skeptical of the current system.

 

[muir]

I was being silly when I posted that, hinting that it would probably cause some sort of controversy. Maybe my sense of humor needs work. I was under the impression we were all mature enough to handle controversial topics without getting emotional. So, if this has somehow angered you in any way, I apologize.

Maturity is about responsibility. A responsible view is one which can recognise when the actions of an institution are cruel

It matters because I've run into a lot of people claiming that it was against Protestants or Muslims, which is simply untrue. That's all. Just clarifying a misconception. Also, they were not "looking to torture people." If you would take off your 21-century, secular glasses for a second, you would understand why people took the false practice of the religion seriously. It's not because they wanted to meddle in others' lives, but because they feared demons and the devil and believed that sacrilege (of which illicitly receiving sacraments is a form) was dangerous to the spiritual and physical well-being of the community. I'm not saying this view is right or wrong, but simply that that was the reason it was done..

There's a quote attributed to Seneca that goes as follows: "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful"

I don't agree with your assessment that the RCC tortured people through a fear of demons and devils. They tortured people to control them.

The Catholic Church has always been very aware of other viewpoints which is why they prohibited so many books and have an archive of prohibited material (hoarding of knowledge). The Spanish Inquisition also prohibited many books. This does not create an environment in which free thought can flourish. It is about narrowing peoples perceptional horizons to fit the Catholic churches mode of thinking.

If you had done any reading, you would know that torture in only 2% of cases was very low by contemporary standards. Also, the forms of torture were relatively humane, see the breaking wheel and drawing and quartering. Keep in mind that I'm not debating the morality of torture here (which I believe is wrong), but simply showing that there was much less than is claimed and that it was much less exotic and horrible.

As for waterboarding, I don't believe the media hype. During training, my father was waterboarded, my uncle was waterboarded, most people involved in intelligence communities (and some portions of the military) are waterboarded. I will probably be waterboarded if I pursue a particular career track. I think you shouldn't be so quick to believe everything you hear on television, but you may disagree. Let's save this debate for later.

I've done plenty of reading. You don't know me....you can't tell me i haven't done any reading!

I don't care if 2% is low or not, i am saying that the RCC as an institution is implicated in all sorts on nasty goings on.

If you had structured your argument differently i would have agreed with you. For example, if you had said something like:

''There are many misconceptions about the Spanish Inquisition, an image of which has been created in the public mind that surpasses the realities. For example torture was not as wide spread as many people seem to believe and torture techniques such as the rack, strappado and waterboarding, although cruel, where some of the milder forms of torture of the day.''

Instead we are getting bogged down in the issue of whether or not torture is acceptable or not, which is kind of poignant today because waterboarding is still used by the US military and some politicians have said they agree with the use of waterboarding.

Concerning your family members being waterboarded in a controlled environment in which they can stop the process at any time, this is hardly the same as waterboarding a genuine prisoner who has no control over the situation and cannot stop the process at anytime and will not put on their coat after and go home for a nice hot bath and a cup of tea.

If you want to really know what waterboarding is then get yourself caught by an enemy because they will do it to you until your spirit is broken and youre crying and blubbering like a little girl.

To get some idea of how nasty a process it is CIA agents who have been waterboarded in controlled situations have never lasted more than 14 seconds before capitulating. Now imagine if you were waterboarded, but it didn't stop even when you begged for mercy.....that's what torture is....what your family had done was a midly disturbing experience NOT torture

Sure, you could look at it that way. Or, you could be a man (or woman) and eat your own words:
Why don't you go by the facts?.

I'm not disputing any facts.

What i'm doing is saying, ''yeah the spanish inquisition might not have been the nastiest thing the Roman Catholic Church was involved in (I understand the Spanish Inquisition was largely carried out under Royal jurisdiction), but it was still pretty nasty; it was still about control and i think that institutions that engage in that sort of behaviour should be condemned for it not supported''

I think there's some things of value at the core of christianity but i believe that the RCC is not a vehicle for those things. I think the RCC has hijaked the teachings and the name of people within a jewish sect and has applied an altered version of the teachings as a way of creating a mind prison for people and as a way of continuing the influence of Rome after the fall of the Roman Empire

I don't want to go into this debate, because it usually ends in finger-pointing and yelling, but there are studies by people like this woman that never see the light of day. This is not to say that child abuse is not a horrible thing; in fact, I think it's one of the worst crimes one can commit. Also, I wholeheartedly agree that when people who are supposed to be moral exemplars worthy of trust, the crime is much, much more scandalizing. This is just to highlight that the "widespread child abuse" isn't a "Catholic problem" like people pretend it is, and needs to be attacked on all fronts in society. I could also pull up some stats on Protestant ministers' abuse as well. If you're interested in this topic, you should read about human trafficking. That's some really chilling stuff as well.?.

I don't think that child abuse is a'catholic' problem either, but i am saying that the essence of the Roman Catholic Church is one of control and that has then manifested in many cruel ways throughout the history of the RCC

Human trafficking is sickening and I don't believe the western governments are doing enough to tackle it.

Like many of your claims, this isn't very well substantiated. I assume you're talking in part about the valuable art that Church keeps. All of it us open for viewing to the public, so you could make the same argument about the Smithsonian.
If you're talking about precious stones and metals in churches and on chalices, the tradition of giving the most valuable or prized of your possessions to a deity goes back a long way in human history, from Semitic religions' sacrifices to nature gods to Chinese offerings of produce to the sky god. This is just a modern manifestation, like when people wear nice clothes on Sunday.
If you're talking about the Vatican bank, it does indeed invest, but the proceeds are used only for charitable purposes.
I can provide sources for this stuff, but I don't feel like you'll read them anyway.

As for the incident with the moneychangers, I think that would relate more to the selling of indulgences that went on in the middle ages, things like that. We can talk more about that if you like..

You don't know me, so don't tell me i wouldn't read them!

The vatican bank has been implicated in a number of scandals, which i'll discuss in a minute.

The pope has recently said that the world needs a 'global public authority' and 'central world bank'.

This is pretty disturbing for many people including myself because we recognise that what has got us into this financial mess is the centralisation of power. We don't need further centralisation of power we need de-centralisation of power, but that would move power closer to the people and institutions like the RCC that have always been about control will always want more centralised power because that makes it easier to control people.

The vatican bank is not dedicated soley for charitable causes it is a profit orientated business involved in world banking which invests in many big corporations.

It spends a lot of money on religious' purposes which is related to the spread of RCC influence.

Also the bank is investing heavily in many big corporations and i have posted examples in this thread of some of the involvements of some big multi-nationals in the rise of Hitler.

If you want to take an honest and clear look at the influence of the Vatican bank, you can't just look at what it's spending prifits on but who it is supporting in the process of making profits.

The vatican bank hired people like Sindona and Calvi who had links to the fasicst P2 Freemasonic lodge (i've mentioned this in previous posts in this thread), who were laundering mafia drug money.

The vatican bank has denied banking for Croation fascists Ustashi but it refuses to open its wartime records to prove this

The vatican Bank has also been accused of managing US covert funds for the contras rebels amongst other accusations of involvment with various violent groups around the world

The vatican bank had a case brought against it in 1999 for helping to fund the ODESSA escape of Nazi SS and of taking possession of Croatian concentration camp loot

In 2009 the vatican bank was investigated for money laundering and by failing to disclose certain information violated Italian law. These dealings involved J.P.Morgan bank which are heavily involved in the current economic crisis, the funding of Hitler, have a massive share of the Federal reserve shares and was formed by the merging of Rockefeller Chase manhatten bank and the Rothschilds J.P. morgan bank

It seems to me that the Vatican bank has been involved in all sorts of unsavoury activities and unsavoury groups

The Borgias were a terrible family, but I wouldn't trust TV to give you the best account, as they often distort things (for better or worse) just to make good television. The Church is a no doubt a flawed organization, administered as it were by imperfect humans. That's not a dismissal of their crimes, but an admission that there is corruption in the Church. Clergymen are not (necessarily) saints..

Don't worry i don't rely on TV; i don't even own a TV

What i'm pointing to with that reference is how widely accepted it is now within the mainstream that the RCC is a corrupt institution with an unsavoury past......which is why i'm slightly bewildered by your seeming defence of it!

If however as i said earlier, you are just trying to put the spanish inquisition in context and proportion rather than defend the RCC then we could definately find common ground on that.

The rest of this is either new to me, unsubstantiated, or a sweeping generalization. If it's the first one, please give me sources, as I'd be interested to read about these things.

Also, I'd like to say that nowhere in this thread have I excused any real crimes of the Catholic church. I have simply put them in proper proportion.

Also, let's try to keep the tone more civil! I'm not trying to be rude or provocative, but you seem a little worked up and angry when you post.

I have too much to do to go digging.

If you want to look into how the catholic church suppressed or altered various texts over the course of its history, i'm sure you won't have to look too hard to find evidence of this.

My emotional state is fine, I'm just suprised sometimes to find people defending what i see as indefensible.

 

[James]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] some very intriguing posts.

PR or "spin" has a very bad reputation in the UK in connection to politics. Rightly so in my view.

Not all PR is necessarily negative. I think John Lennons use of advertising for peace was very effective, and may well have helped speed up the end of the Vietnam war.

Bacon and eggs eh? Now I'm hungry...