Born to Believe
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Imagination is great, however...We love to rely on our intuition and if the evidence points to no God then that'll be the result.
I'm from a secular background and there are other available non God-inclusive frameworks to ponder the nature of the mind, universe and everything.
Like philosophy for example. I've just had previously unpredictable experiences that caused me to revise my framework and it now includes some extra ingredients that allow God's existence, though not as any Grey bearded guy on a cloud...From former atheist to current heretic. But the said experiences could have been interpreted otherwise too. I chose the alternative that I found to be most accurate and faesable.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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GracieRuth
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I usually have a preliminary opinion. It doesn't mean my mind is closed to other possibilities. I ask questions to see if any ideas surface in the discussion that I have't considered.
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I think we may be hardwired to experience spiritual feelings and that some are more sensitive to it. I agree that the framework on how to explain this experience is something societal. That's what I think.
Here's excerpts from an article from The Independent
"Religious belief and behaviour are a hallmark of human life, with no accepted animal equivalent, and found in all cultures," said Professor Jordan Grafman, from the US National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke in Bethesda, near Washington. "Our results are unique in demonstrating that specific components of religious belief are mediated by well-known brain networks, and they support contemporary psychological theories that ground religious belief within evolutionary-adaptive cognitive functions."
(And here's a neurological defense for atheists accused of being non-ethical because of not believing in God)
"The latest study, published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, involved analysing the brains of volunteers, who had been asked to think about religious and moral problems and questions. For the analysis, the researchers used a functional magnetic-resonance imaging machine, which can identify the most energetically-active regions of the brain.
They found that people of different religious persuasions and beliefs, as well as atheists, all tended to use the same electrical circuits in the brain to solve a perceived moral conundrum – and the same circuits were used when religiously-inclined people dealt with issues related to God."
"Professor Grafman was more interested in how people coped with everyday moral and religious questions. He said that the latest study, published today, suggests the brain is inherently sensitive to believing in almost anything if there are grounds for doing so, but when there is a mystery about something, the same neural machinery is co-opted in the formulation of religious belief." <---that there being the case with me... ;D
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/belief-and-the-brains-god-spot-1641022.html
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Sorry to double post but I found a really interesting documentary on the subject of this thread.
You can watch it here:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/god-on-the-brain/
the last part was really exciting
"Scientists like Andrew Newberg want to see just what does happen during moments of faith. He worked with Buddhist, Michael Baime, to study the brain during meditation. By injecting radioactive tracers into Michael's bloodstream as he reached the height of a meditative trance, Newberg could use a brain scanner to image the brain at a religious climax.
The bloodflow patterns showed that the temporal lobes were certainly involved but also that the brain's parietal lobes appeared almost completely to shut down. The parietal lobes give us our sense of time and place. Without them, we may lose our sense of self. Adherants to many of the world's faiths regard a sense of personal insignificance and oneness with a deity as something to strive for. Newberg's work suggests a neurological basis for what religion tries to generate."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml
You can watch it here:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/god-on-the-brain/
the last part was really exciting
"Scientists like Andrew Newberg want to see just what does happen during moments of faith. He worked with Buddhist, Michael Baime, to study the brain during meditation. By injecting radioactive tracers into Michael's bloodstream as he reached the height of a meditative trance, Newberg could use a brain scanner to image the brain at a religious climax.
The bloodflow patterns showed that the temporal lobes were certainly involved but also that the brain's parietal lobes appeared almost completely to shut down. The parietal lobes give us our sense of time and place. Without them, we may lose our sense of self. Adherants to many of the world's faiths regard a sense of personal insignificance and oneness with a deity as something to strive for. Newberg's work suggests a neurological basis for what religion tries to generate."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml
Peppermint
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Sorry to double post but I found a really interesting documentary on the subject of this thread.
You can watch it here:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/god-on-the-brain/
the last part was really exciting
"Scientists like Andrew Newberg want to see just what does happen during moments of faith. He worked with Buddhist, Michael Baime, to study the brain during meditation. By injecting radioactive tracers into Michael's bloodstream as he reached the height of a meditative trance, Newberg could use a brain scanner to image the brain at a religious climax.
The bloodflow patterns showed that the temporal lobes were certainly involved but also that the brain's parietal lobes appeared almost completely to shut down. The parietal lobes give us our sense of time and place. Without them, we may lose our sense of self. Adherants to many of the world's faiths regard a sense of personal insignificance and oneness with a deity as something to strive for. Newberg's work suggests a neurological basis for what religion tries to generate."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml
Have you heard of the God helmet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet
U
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It's in the documetary....and they also test it on Richard Dawkins... ;D
Ditto on my previous post. You are doing it again right here. You read only what you want to read and discard other opinions. How would anyone on this forum know what ideas you have not already considered? In doing so, people are not likely to post their opinion in your thread b/c you do not think their opinion in valid. This is not a "discussion thread" among members. It is a "talk to gracieruth thread." So if you want to solicit all possible opinions you need to facilitate discussion, not smother it.
GracieRuth
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I'm sorry if I'm coming across like I want to smother the discussion. Nothing could be further from my goals. I come from a culture where we seek truth by arguing our points passionately. Sometimes I'll think about what one person said for a decade, maybe even longer. In one case, a woman on a bulliten board (the pre-internet version of a forum) said something that took about 20 years to perculate, resulting in a radical change in my life. You might have thought at the time that I "smothered her reply" but in fact I know sometimes the best thoughts are the slowest to cook. I guess my point is don't be fooled by the firmness of my convictions -- it doesn't stop me from hearing other opinions.
Quiet
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Im not exactly sure what the article is suggesting- the belief in god/gods/openess to spiritual experience or religion.
We all seek to constantly understand and explain our world, some more than others. I see religion as essentially culture, and yes I can see how humans are hardwired for culture as it seems to be essential for us to understand our environment, communicate and navigate our world. It is easy for people to believe and follow the status quo because it is the past of least resistance and the most acceptance by the general public.
I was brought up in a fundamentalist religious home. I had a strong desire to understand and live the beliefs of my parents and those around me. I wanted to believe because I loved and trusted my parents. However, even at the age of 4, it didnt make sense to me. It seemed illogical and it felt inuitively wrong. I asked everyone a lot of questions- my family, their friends, church leaders and I always ended unsatisfied, with more questions, or critised for asking innappropriate questions. I felt so unbelievably bad because I couldnt just believe- like there was something seriously worng with me or that I was bad or evil. Eventually I learnt to temper my questions, because all it did was make people uncomfortable and upset. I felt very uncomfortable and upset by the concept of God that I was being taught. I still remember clearly crying all night and refusing to go anywhere or eat for days when my parents explained to me that all non-believers would go to hell. I spent months begging this god I didnt relate to or understand to spare these people and torture me instead. I tried reasoning and bargaining, promising to do anything as long these people would be spared but I got no comfort and I was unable to accept. Even then and especailly now I cant understand that level of hate that any person or entity could have that they would want to permanenlty destroy or torture someone. At the same time as all this I had my own spiritual experiences and my personal understanding of the world which was in many ways very different and counter to the religious beliefs I was taught. I accepted and learned from what I could from my parents religious beliefs (there was a lot of valuable information) but I simply couldnt reconcile the information inutively in a way that felt comfortable.
I did however have many ecstatic, amazing, spiritual experiences at church. When the entire congregation would sing, of have a communal prayer- it was just incredible. I felt alive and the world made complete sense. There were many places other than church I would feel this way, but to experience it in a group scenario is just wonderful. Ecstacy and bliss definately come to mind. I also experienced a lot of satisfaction and comfort from prayer- be it silent, individual or in a group setting. My prayers were always answered and if they were not I normally could see why.
When I was older I explored my religion in depth, reading everything I could and talking to everyone. Still empty I explored all the religions and philosphies. Still feeling empty but full of information I looked deeper into myself and finally found my answers, the same answers that I had spent most of my life hiding from.
The prayer, music, singing, sharing of food, socialising, caring and praying for others, sense of community and support were the favourite parts of my religious upbringing and I carry them still. There were many messages that I have held onto as well. I'm grateful for my upbringing and the experiences that I had and am finally in a place where I am entirely comfortable. But I don think that I was hardwired for religion.
We all seek to constantly understand and explain our world, some more than others. I see religion as essentially culture, and yes I can see how humans are hardwired for culture as it seems to be essential for us to understand our environment, communicate and navigate our world. It is easy for people to believe and follow the status quo because it is the past of least resistance and the most acceptance by the general public.
I was brought up in a fundamentalist religious home. I had a strong desire to understand and live the beliefs of my parents and those around me. I wanted to believe because I loved and trusted my parents. However, even at the age of 4, it didnt make sense to me. It seemed illogical and it felt inuitively wrong. I asked everyone a lot of questions- my family, their friends, church leaders and I always ended unsatisfied, with more questions, or critised for asking innappropriate questions. I felt so unbelievably bad because I couldnt just believe- like there was something seriously worng with me or that I was bad or evil. Eventually I learnt to temper my questions, because all it did was make people uncomfortable and upset. I felt very uncomfortable and upset by the concept of God that I was being taught. I still remember clearly crying all night and refusing to go anywhere or eat for days when my parents explained to me that all non-believers would go to hell. I spent months begging this god I didnt relate to or understand to spare these people and torture me instead. I tried reasoning and bargaining, promising to do anything as long these people would be spared but I got no comfort and I was unable to accept. Even then and especailly now I cant understand that level of hate that any person or entity could have that they would want to permanenlty destroy or torture someone. At the same time as all this I had my own spiritual experiences and my personal understanding of the world which was in many ways very different and counter to the religious beliefs I was taught. I accepted and learned from what I could from my parents religious beliefs (there was a lot of valuable information) but I simply couldnt reconcile the information inutively in a way that felt comfortable.
I did however have many ecstatic, amazing, spiritual experiences at church. When the entire congregation would sing, of have a communal prayer- it was just incredible. I felt alive and the world made complete sense. There were many places other than church I would feel this way, but to experience it in a group scenario is just wonderful. Ecstacy and bliss definately come to mind. I also experienced a lot of satisfaction and comfort from prayer- be it silent, individual or in a group setting. My prayers were always answered and if they were not I normally could see why.
When I was older I explored my religion in depth, reading everything I could and talking to everyone. Still empty I explored all the religions and philosphies. Still feeling empty but full of information I looked deeper into myself and finally found my answers, the same answers that I had spent most of my life hiding from.
The prayer, music, singing, sharing of food, socialising, caring and praying for others, sense of community and support were the favourite parts of my religious upbringing and I carry them still. There were many messages that I have held onto as well. I'm grateful for my upbringing and the experiences that I had and am finally in a place where I am entirely comfortable. But I don think that I was hardwired for religion.
Apone
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Do you think that saying that Star Wars is untrue also implies a lack of imagination?
But I don't really think there's much point in religion. I suppose that things like ceremony and sacrifice are hardwired in most people's brains as numinous, but I don't think that anything is any more cosmically relevant than anything else.
I suppose it would be nice to believe that everything is something incredible and actually feel it on a visceral level, though... I think human beings are pretty much hardwired to prioritize certain acts and religion kind of reinvents the hierarchy, so unless you're on psychedelic drugs religion/ceremony/meditation is probably it.
I have to admit I'm kind of lazy/ignorant about the whole thing though-- DNA evolves/adapts to the environment pretty frequently, right?
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Im ok with you missing the point.
Apone
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If you're not going to answer the question, why respond at all?
Rferraris
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Well I think bad mouthing is questionable behavior. I mean I see a difference between kicking a small puppy and promoting religion. I'm sure kicking the puppy would get few words from me
Are they bad mouthing or just questioning. I think I see your point.
muir
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Perhaps some people would like to draw a distinction between religion and mysticism?
There's an overlap but religion, in my eyes, is something that is packaged for the masses, whereas mysticism is something with more nuances that you're going to savour, explore and seek to understand more about....it has more room for manouvre. All the Abrahamic religions seem to have mystical sects but at times throughout history the religious establishments have deemed these heretical. Its possible to often hear (even here on the forum) religious people quoting lines from religious texts with the accuracy of lawyers, without ever stopping to think twice if there is a deeper meaning or interpretation to the words than the literal translation.
Religion (in my eyes) is a codified system that tells you from a pre-established (pre-agreed) set of rules, certain things whether it is how you should treat others, how we came to be here, what our purpose is and how our relationship should be with this reality that we are all a part of. Religious leaders often seem to tell us that we must develop a relationship with the divine (whatever the divine is....define that however you like) through them and that we must root ourselves in the material plane through hollow rituals.
Mysticism on the other hand (in my opinion) is more of a personal, intutive journey where you are developing a relationship with something ineffable and transcendant. Mysticism often has its gurus as well but perhaps there is a distinction between a guru opening up latent perceptions within yourself and a priest who tells you what to do. Mysticism also has rituals i guess whether it is meditation or chanting or ecstatic dancing or whirling like a dervish but the purpose of the rituals seem to be to create an altered state of consciousness whereas religious rituals seem to eschew the ecstatic state and seem to be more an empty process designed to encourage compliance to the will of the order.
Sure someone who is operating within a religious framework can still have a mystical experience but i think that generally to do so they will have to blur some of the defined dogma of religion and open up to something less well defined, something with their own personal input.
I think that we don't yet have a full understanding about the nature of reality and some of the theoretical ideas science is coming up with are mind blowing; for example ideas about string theory, multi dimensional universes, holographic universes.
I think that this massive gap in our understanding still leaves the door open to explanations for the various phenomena people have reported for millenia such as visions, visitations, esp etc
Who knows perhaps scientific consensus might yet agree with the claims of mystics that we are all one consciousness and are all therefore connected.
I think its very possible that in the not too distant future we may hear a revelation that will completely revise the current consensus on the nature of this reality and of our relation to it
There's an overlap but religion, in my eyes, is something that is packaged for the masses, whereas mysticism is something with more nuances that you're going to savour, explore and seek to understand more about....it has more room for manouvre. All the Abrahamic religions seem to have mystical sects but at times throughout history the religious establishments have deemed these heretical. Its possible to often hear (even here on the forum) religious people quoting lines from religious texts with the accuracy of lawyers, without ever stopping to think twice if there is a deeper meaning or interpretation to the words than the literal translation.
Religion (in my eyes) is a codified system that tells you from a pre-established (pre-agreed) set of rules, certain things whether it is how you should treat others, how we came to be here, what our purpose is and how our relationship should be with this reality that we are all a part of. Religious leaders often seem to tell us that we must develop a relationship with the divine (whatever the divine is....define that however you like) through them and that we must root ourselves in the material plane through hollow rituals.
Mysticism on the other hand (in my opinion) is more of a personal, intutive journey where you are developing a relationship with something ineffable and transcendant. Mysticism often has its gurus as well but perhaps there is a distinction between a guru opening up latent perceptions within yourself and a priest who tells you what to do. Mysticism also has rituals i guess whether it is meditation or chanting or ecstatic dancing or whirling like a dervish but the purpose of the rituals seem to be to create an altered state of consciousness whereas religious rituals seem to eschew the ecstatic state and seem to be more an empty process designed to encourage compliance to the will of the order.
Sure someone who is operating within a religious framework can still have a mystical experience but i think that generally to do so they will have to blur some of the defined dogma of religion and open up to something less well defined, something with their own personal input.
I think that we don't yet have a full understanding about the nature of reality and some of the theoretical ideas science is coming up with are mind blowing; for example ideas about string theory, multi dimensional universes, holographic universes.
I think that this massive gap in our understanding still leaves the door open to explanations for the various phenomena people have reported for millenia such as visions, visitations, esp etc
Who knows perhaps scientific consensus might yet agree with the claims of mystics that we are all one consciousness and are all therefore connected.
I think its very possible that in the not too distant future we may hear a revelation that will completely revise the current consensus on the nature of this reality and of our relation to it
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