British Socialism

[BenW]

Damn those greedy doctors...
Expecting MONEY, just for their "time and effort"?!
Selfish pricks!

Anyway, Satya, why is healthcare the only profession that should be populated by altruists?
Why not sex workers, store clerks, or lumberjacks?
Since every good and service inevitably benefits somebody else, everyone should be working for free, clearly.

 

[Satya]

Damn those greedy doctors...
Expecting MONEY, just for their "time and effort"?!
Selfish pricks!

Thank you for taking my words out of context.

Anyway, Satya, why is healthcare the only profession that should be populated by altruists?

Health care's primary service is to people, not materials or services.

Since every good and service inevitably benefits somebody else, everyone should be working for free, clearly.

Who said anything about working for free? Can you even read what I have typed?

 

[BenW]

Health care's primary service is to people, not materials or services.

Every industries service is to people...
People pay people to do things for or give things to them.
Id be interested in hearing an exception to this.

 

[Rudy]

You honestly believe that financial incentive is the only incentive that humans have? Humans can't be motivated by the desire to help others? They can't be motivated by the desire to improve upon themselves? They can't be motivated by the prestige of a position that they have worked to achieve? They can't be motivated by the responsibility they hold? They can't be motivated by the relationships and bonds they form?

It seems to me that the capitalistic system you are endorsing strips human beings of most of what makes them human in order to serve the concept of money. How free is a people that has to be motivated by monetary incentive?

I'm fairly certain that is not, in any measure, what I said. Somehow, you derived the impression from my words that I think that, if financial incentive were removed, that no one would become a doctor. Of course this is not the case.

What I actually did say, was that without financial incentive, a lot fewer people would become doctors, increasing the shortage problem that you referred to yourself. If your immediate concern, then, is to make sure people have medical coverage, you should keep that in mind. Regardless of whether or not they "should" be, a lot of doctors are, at least in part, motivated by money. This is a fact. Wishing it otherwise does not change it.

The individual who can dedicate their life, including many, very grueling, years of schooling, to medicine, for the sole or primary motivation of helping others certainly exists, but is a rare individual indeed. It would be unwise to think that the supply of such people is sufficient to cover medical needs.

 

[the]

You honestly believe that financial incentive is the only incentive that humans have? Humans can't be motivated by the desire to help others? They can't be motivated by the desire to improve upon themselves? They can't be motivated by the prestige of a position that they have worked to achieve? They can't be motivated by the responsibility they hold? They can't be motivated by the relationships and bonds they form?

It seems to me that the capitalistic system you are endorsing strips human beings of most of what makes them human in order to serve the concept of money. How free is a people that has to be motivated by monetary incentive?

How idealistic and naive.

 

[Satya]

I'm fairly certain that is not, in any measure, what I said. Somehow, you derived the impression from my words that I think that, if financial incentive were removed, that no one would become a doctor. Of course this is not the case.

What I actually did say, was that without financial incentive, a lot fewer people would become doctors, increasing the shortage problem that you referred to yourself. If your immediate concern, then, is to make sure people have medical coverage, you should keep that in mind. Regardless of whether or not they "should" be, a lot of doctors are, at least in part, motivated by money. This is a fact. Wishing it otherwise does not change it.

If that is the case, then I think you have misunderstood the case I put forth. I don't think financial incentive is by any means a bad incentive to have, but it should not be the primary incentive of doctors. It does not serve our interest to have doctor's whose primary interest is monetary riches. If we have a shortage of doctors, then we should be working on increasing the other incentives that do serve towards helping others.

A market exists because there are a limited number of resources. Doctors are a resource. To increase that resource, we could easily increase financial incentive but what kind doctors does that produce? Our society should be increasing other incentives. But the problem is that we have undervalued self improvement, honor, responsibility, and relationships. Many of the greatest philosophers didn't become philosophers to be rich, but to improve upon his understanding of the world. Many of the greatest military leaders did not become military leaders to be rich, but to protect their country and countrymen. Many of the greatest scientists did not become scientists to become rich, but to discover solutions to problems that plague our world. And many of the greatest counselors and teachers did not become such to become rich, but to help through mentoring and guidance.

Where are those incentives to become a doctor? You have a 6 figure student debt and the threat of being sued for malpractice to look forward to when you get out of school. There is little respect for doctors in this country. We could do more to subsidize their education and be more critical of frivolous law suits, but we don't. Hence why I get angry when people think capitalism is somehow the answer to the problem we have with our current doctor shortage and any future ones that may emerge as try to provide more health care via socialized methods.

 

[Pristinegirl]

Frankly, for someone who has never lived over here, you have an awful lot of pretentious certainty for how things actually are. When you have watched young kids get seriously sick because their parents can't afford health insurance to take them to the doctor, and then watched their parents haul them into the emergency room to be burdened by $700 emergency room visit and hundreds of dollars for meds that they can't pay, then you can talk. When you have watched people who worked their ass off for their entire life to earn buy a house and meager savings and watch them lose it all when they get sick and their insurance company refuses to pay on some technicality, then you can talk. Tell me then about "unfair treatment".

Pretentious certainty? Just because I think that the kind of hell I live in is unfare does not mean that I think the ghosts of American society is great? How can you even think that? :/ Don't presume that I'm not for basic security, because I am! As am I strongly for the health care reform too, with hopes of what you just described should never happen!

God forbid a doctor becomes a doctor because they want to help people and not because they want to make millions of dollars off the sickness and suffering of others. You act like going to school for 10 years is some sort of punishment. It's one of the greatest privileges a person in the post industrial world can enjoy. A high school teacher in this country has to go to school for 6-8 years just to teach young brats who the first president was.

And doctors was just an example of a 'highly educated' one within their area, who is immensely taxed here to the point were his sallary is almost at the same level as a minimum wage employee who pays basically no tax. The high tax payers in other words high educated are the ones who the government collects the most from... So they are the main supporters of this society..
Going to school for 10 years to be able to help people, very much then deserves compensation. If everyone thought; oh well I don't care I just won't study and live in a socialist society where I basically pay no tax - then there would be no doctors!!!!

And what is your argument? Money! It all comes down to money! Owe woe is the person who has give up their precious income! Forget people! Forget relationships! What matters is you get yours and screw everyone else! So what if someone dies! As long the bureaucrats in the industries get to control your life and not the bureaucrats in the government!

Liberated from what? The government? The industries? The military? In my country, they are the same damn thing.

No the point is not moneymaking, the point is that the hypocritical reasoning is insane in this society. Studying is highly recommended and encouraged but when you reach what you want it doesn't matter anyway. Because even though your job required 10 years of preparation, you will end up with practically the same amount of money as a Lazy Bum who decided not to study or work and instead live of social welfare... The horrible truth...

 

[Deleted member 1391]

Health practitioners should receive just as much money as anyone else for their services, and probably more simply because of how valuable those services are. A good government systems uses it money to pay them personally, which in turns offers the average citizen the ability to get the serious medical treatment they need when they need it.

You need to balance the scales. Going to the extremes of either option is just stupid.

 

[Satya]

How idealistic and naive.

Forgive me for thinking people's primary motivation could be anything but financial motivation.

 

[Deleted member 1391]

Forgive me for thinking people's primary motivation could be anything but financial motivation.

Health practitioners have families to raise and children to feed just as much as the rest of us do. Contrary to what most people seem to believe, the vast majority of doctors aren't rolling around in mountains of cash.

*points up to his previous post*

 

[WhiteWolf]

I don't know what its like in other countries.
But over here there are way to many people who want to become a doctor. and they want to become a doctor BECAUSE they will be able to help people, and of course the status is nice to.
If you want to make money here, just become a dentist, they earn more money then the normal doctors here but strangely there are far less people who want to become a dentist....

 

[BenW]

A market exists because there are a limited number of resources. Doctors are a resource. To increase that resource, we could easily increase financial incentive but what kind doctors does that produce?

People don't "increase" financial incentives through some act of wilpower...
Financial incentive is inherent to a scarce good or service with high demand, such as medical services.

Doctors make money, because people are willing to pay them.
Nothing exploitative or selfish about that.

 

[Shai Gar]

... the joke was actually about joining al qaeda

 

[Satya]

Pretentious certainty? Just because I think that the kind of hell I live in is unfare does not mean that I think the ghosts of American society is great? How can you even think that? :/ Don't presume that I'm not for basic security, because I am! As am I strongly for the health care reform too, with hopes of what you just described should never happen!

They do happen. Everyday. I think that when you prentend that the hell you go through is any less than the hell that many people here go through, then you are being pretentious.

And doctors was just an example of a 'highly educated' one within their area, who is immensely taxed here to the point were his sallary is almost at the same level as a minimum wage employee who pays basically no tax. The high tax payers in other words high educated are the ones who the government collects the most from... So they are the main supporters of this society..
Going to school for 10 years to be able to help people, very much then deserves compensation. If everyone thought; oh well I don't care I just won't study and live in a socialist society where I basically pay no tax - then there would be no doctors!!!!

You probably have a lot more respect for doctors for Sweden than they have here. There are other factors to consider besides just the financial ones.

No the point is not moneymaking, the point is that the hypocritical reasoning is insane in this society. Studying is highly recommended and encouraged but when you reach what you want it doesn't matter anyway. Because even though your job required 10 years of preparation, you will end up with practically the same amount of money as a Lazy Bum who decided not to study or work and instead live of social welfare... The horrible truth...

So the knowledge you have gain, the self improvement you have made, the improvements to society you may make, the relationships and bonds you may have formed, the responsibility you hold in society, etc. are all completely worthless because you make as much money as a lazy bum who has none of those things? Wow, its clear to see where your values are.

 

[Pristinegirl]

People don't "increase" financial incentives through some act of wilpower...
Financial incentive is inherent to a scarce good or service with high demand, such as medical services.

Doctors make money, because people are willing to pay them.
Nothing exploitative or selfish about that.

Good point and an important one !!!!

 

[Satya]

People don't "increase" financial incentives through some act of wilpower...
Financial incentive is inherent to a scarce good or service with high demand, such as medical services.

Doctors make money, because people are willing to pay them.
Nothing exploitative or selfish about that.

We increase financial incentive via deregulating markets.

Funny, you would think an anarcho capitalist would know that much.

 

[Deleted member 1391]

*rolls eyes and goes back to letting you lot beat each other with sticks*

 

[Rudy]

Where are those incentives to become a doctor? You have a 6 figure student debt and the threat of being sued for malpractice to look forward to when you get out of school. There is little respect for doctors in this country. We could do more to subsidize their education and be more critical of frivolous law suits, but we don't. Hence why I get angry when people think capitalism is somehow the answer to the problem we have with our current doctor shortage and any future ones that may emerge as try to provide more health care via socialized methods.

I don't disagree with initiatives to increase other incentives. If you want to try to encourage people to want to give back to their community, as opposed to forcing them to, then I'm all in favor. I also agree that malpractice and whatnot are out of hand.

I do, however, think there is a limit on how much you will be able to remove self-interest as a necessary motivation.

 

[BenW]

We increase financial incentive via deregulating markets.

Funny, you would think an anarcho capitalist would know that much.

Deregulation would increase the supply of doctors (and drugs), meaning they would get paid less than they currently do.

Deregulation would, however, make healthcare cheaper and more plentiful.
So, if you're for deregulation in this instance, we certainly can come to a consensus.

 

[Satya]

I don't disagree with initiatives to increase other incentives. If you want to try to encourage people to want to give back to their community, as opposed to forcing them to, then I'm all in favor. I also agree that malpractice and whatnot are out of hand.

I do, however, think there is a limit on how much you will be able to remove self-interest as a necessary motivation.

I repeat, I never said that self interest is not a necessary motivation. What I said is that people have long forgotten what is in their self interest.

You seem to have in your mind that self interest equates only to financial incentive. All the things I have suggested are in our self interest. Helping others, increasing status, self improvement, building relationships, etc. are self interests.

I find it utterly dissatisfying that this society has undervalued all our other self interests simply by pushing financial interests above all the rests. I don't argue that financial interests should be stripped away either. Only that it should not be the primary interest of doctors.