Can you reason with the ideological?

Wow, I missed so much on this thread. I don't know where to begin....but I'm probably repeating myself anyway.

1) You can't separate yourself from ideology and pretend you aren't indoctrinated
2) Religion DEFINITELY IS an ideology (as is politics, culture EVERYTHING - please try to bear in mind that the whole idea of values, judgements, right and wrong, ethics - all of these things are products of ideology. We can't live without them BUT THEY DON'T EXIST - so don't get too worked up about them!)
3) You can't blame religion for anything. Religion is a concept. More than that, it is a massively interpretable concept. There are millions of Christians that have the direct opposite view of our man here when it comes to homosexuality. There are millions of muslims that have a different view on women to the one you often hear about (Iraq and Iran were very, very different a little over half a century ago. What changed it? POLITICS!)
4) Everything, just everything, is extremely heterogeneous. Categories are great. We can't just mooch around with our head in the clouds going "everything's a spectrum maaaan", but neither can we expect that the categories actually mean anything when it comes to it! Grouping people according to something as one-sided as religion is just impractical and implausible. It is one signifier when seen in a person, and as a concept, it is a million signifiers. You can't see things in black and white for the simple reason that things are not black and white. Yes, we need to make decisions, without judgements we'd be useless, but those decisions have to bear in mind that you will never get a one-fits-all and that the decision itself must be flawed - the flaws of the system should not be used to counteract the argument (because then we'd get nowhere) but "truth" as a concept, it's useless. (I don't think that made sense, did it? It does to me)
5) I assume when you're talking about ideology you are talking about things such as homophobic. Homophobia is a separate ideology to other ideologies - it is one of its own - you can't blame one particular group. Power DOES NOT come from the top, it is extremely symbiotic, people don't do as they are told. How to deal with it? I'm afraid I'm just going to have to say ignore it, although I know that's a less than perfect answer. When it comes to bigoted people, their beliefs are heavily rooted in fear and that fear itself is a complex beast prowling deep within their mind. To take that apart would be to force them to question, not just an issue but themselves, it would be to force them to face fear. Human beings do not do this easily. They have to want to, I'm afraid. I'm not saying people will be homophobic forever, but in this case, it's on the individual. Some individuals may change their mind from being around gay people and realising their opinions are flawed but by no means all of them - and probably most of them would stick to their guns anyway. Rationalisation will absolutely definitely not work. If their beliefs are threatened they will fortify them to protect them because they don't want to face something painful - which is what their beliefs are drawn from.

Bear in mind, though, some people are kind of homophobic by default. They're homophobic because they haven't thought it through, they've just been told gay=bad. These people can probably be rationalised with if you approach it in the right way. If it's a laissez-faire surface belief that they basically don't have their own opinion on, they might change their opinion when given new evidence. But generally, I'm sorry but you're not going to change them. I'd just try to accept they exist and get on with your life.
 
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I'm not sure if I would refer to anyone as "ignorant"....this might imply a total lack of knowledge, and most of us have either some knowledge, some experience, or some tertiary (family, friends) means of having a degree of empathy. For me understanding people as real persons, rather then some disconnected group of "others", helps. Most of us know (on some level anyway) what it is like to be an outcast, to be rejected, to be talked about behind our backs, to be judged. If we can walk in another's shoes for a moment on a personal level, this helps. I even think people who over-identify with an ideology or a group (for security perhaps) would have different view if the topic were taken to a very personal level. If I know someone personally and understand their feelings, conflicts, hopes, fears, struggles....I get that much better. That is not a strictly logical approach, but the heart has it's own brand of logic, too.
 
grapefruit said:
Often times we hate a group or idea because we cannot understand it though.
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True, or won't understand it....perhaps because we feel it threatens us somehow or threatens our status in the ideological group?

There is much I do not directly understand on an experiencial level. Yet, via friends, family members, neighbors or other associations, I can access enough of the human situation find a degree of understanding...at least enough to set aside, bend, or re-question the (perhaps rigid) assumptions I may have made about my ideological stance. This is especially true IF my ideology involves any degree of compassion, love, or understanding. Christianity does this...and it is hard to escape (although some sure seem to try).

I hope individuals are more prone to this kind of personal moderation, even though the ideology in it's constructs, and platforms, and public articulations may seem less so.

I know people who were dead set on a certain matter of morality....until their sister was directly impacted. That's when the light went on.
 
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grapefruit said:
Often times we hate a group or idea because we cannot understand it though.
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"We", you say? Hate, or hatred, is a bad word when addressing a person or group of people. Don't recall hating an idea, but have definitely disagreed with ideas before; even been against ideas. There are things I may hate, but it certainly does not mean I hate the person doing the things.

I also disagree that all decisions must be flawed. Maybe I misunderstand, but truth is useful.
 
randomsomeone said:
This might not be a good way to reason with anybody.
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Some individuals are not worth reasoning with simply because they value their beliefs more than their capacity to understand others. They choose to make completely unsubstantiated assumptions about others and that is the definition of ignorance. I no longer have patience for it and I no longer try to reason with individuals who engage in it. It is intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself. I choose to treat those individuals with the same bigotry and disregard with which they choose to treat me.
 
From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. quoted
 
just me said:
All that big talk of critical thinking and choices gives me a headache. I'll have to study this awhile to try and understand what to say.
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I hate you. I have no issue with saying so. You are an old man who was never taught to question anything he believed. You have proven that time and time again in your posts. It has nothing to do with your religion. I hate you personally. In my opinion, you are very simple minded in your approach to life and you completely lack insight into other people. Don't get me wrong though. I find the act of using the Bible to determine what constitutes good human conduct to be as insidiously stupid as asking caveman how to do Calculus. But it isn't the religion itself that I find bad. It is how you choose to use it. That is what I find disgusting. You use it so you never have to think for yourself. It is nothing but a psychological crutch to you. You have never been man enough to face the possibility you are wrong. You use it so you have a structure by which to live your life. You use it so you can conform with the group. But worst of all, it is an excuse for you to give in to your fear and disgust of people like me. The sight of two homos kissing is offensive to you, and you use your religion as an excuse to condemn the behavior even though it has nothing to do with you. I make no such excuses. You disgust me.
 
Satya said:
I hate you. I have no issue with saying so. You are an old man who was never taught to question anything he believed. You have proven that time and time again in your posts. It has nothing to do with your religion. I hate you personally. In my opinion, you are very simple minded in your approach to life and you completely lack insight into other people. Don't get me wrong though. I find the act of using the Bible to determine what constitutes good human conduct to be as insidiously stupid as asking caveman how to do Calculus. But it isn't the religion itself that I find bad. It is how you choose to use it. That is what I find disgusting. You use it so you never have to think for yourself. It is nothing but a psychological crutch to you. You have never been man enough to face the possibility you are wrong. You use it so you have a structure by which to live your life. You use it so you can conform with the group. But worst of all, it is an excuse for you to give in to your fear and disgust of people like me. The sight of two homos kissing is offensive to you, and you use your religion as an excuse to condemn the behavior even though it has nothing to do with you. I make no such excuses. You disgust me.
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Try to take things lightly and with a smile just to get slammed. That's not the first time that has happened to me.

Having studied God's Word much more than most, and having spent years of celibacy trying to further understand holiness, I feel inclined to be somewhat aware of what is going on around me.

My Christianity teaches me to forgive you, though I do not like being hated. I will step out and speak truth to you. I feel you hate yourself. You just cannot love others if you hate yourself. You are filled with hatred and bitterness. You like it, too. Something in your past will not allow you to be free. You must let go of it.

I questioned more than most, so you are wrong in your appraisal of me. I did not have to be taught to question things; it came naturally. Years of questioning turned into decades. I just buried my Father; he was old. The life I saw him live was an example of Christianity not lived by many. I was blessed with the small handfull of people placed in my life and feel quite fortunate. There was a time I hated my life, but those days are far spent. I know the signs.

My religion is not a crutch or a weakness as you see it; it is my strength. How else can I read your words and not be angry or lash back at you? I will tell you that you are not alone. Neither am I alone. There have been many before me hated for the way they believed and the way they presented themselves. There will be others behind me. I am in good company. I have more insight into other people than you can fathom.

I think for myself. What you really hate about me is my ability to not fall prey to your negative words. That is what Christians call putting on the whole armour of God. You just wouldn't understand, so you try to put it down any way you can. That's alright with me. Go for it. I am man enough to take it and know I am not alone.

If you spent half the time you spend trying to discredit other human beings for not seeing things the way you do.... doing something positive....it might show genuine concern for others. Instead, your actions and words show disgust that can only come from your heart. Your words show where your heart is. Believe me when I say this: there is nothing I would rather see in this world than for you to be happy and content with your life. I have never seen anyone in my life filled with so much hatred, and(forgive my humor) I have seen quite a few in the great number of years I have spent on this earth....old as I am to you.

What you hate is the fact people like me won't just go away.
 
just me said:
If you spent half the time you spend trying to discredit other human beings for not seeing things the way you do.... doing something positive....it might show genuine concern for others. Instead, your actions and words show disgust that can only come from your heart. Your words show where your heart is. Believe me when I say this: there is nothing I would rather see in this world than for you to be happy and content with your life.
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Those are the words you use to reason with the ideological.
 
For me, getting all churned up (which is perfectly understandable from time to time) is not a place from which I would want to have a dialogue or discussion. Openness diminishes, people stop listening. I'd have to take some time to get on more neutral ground internally before choosing to engage.
 
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