Children: Birthing vs. Adopting

Billy said:
Even so, that's assuming shes banging only 1 guy. And as we know, women cheat just as much as men do.
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Well no, but I am assuming she has the decency to only bang one guy in a 24-48 hour period, which I guess I shouldn't assume. Lol
 
CindyLou said:
awwww. I never thought about it like that. Damn, the gulf between men and women is even further than I thought.

If you're trying for a baby as a couple and have a week 5 or 6 ultrasound, you can get a pretty good idea of the conception day. But, if you pass that window, yeah there is no way. So, you should insist on that early ultrasound! ;)

Those stats are NUTS.
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It might not be even as easy as having the ultrasound, there are lots of scenarios how it might go, sometimes a test can show negative when its positive, and you dont even find out that you are pregnant until its too late too late to have that early ultrasound. My aunt got pregnant while on long-term contraception, everything was normal for her and she didnt even realize she was pregnant until she felt movements!

There just has to be an awful amount of trust from a man, if the trust isnt there, then its probably not a good idea to be having babies with that woman. And statistics is a b****, lets say, girl A slept with 1 man in her entire life, girl B slept with a 100, so statistically theyre both kinda slept around a lot? :P So if we add those false paternities from the civilized world and add the "middle ages" civilizations where a woman isnt even in a position to tell anyone if shes been raped without getting stoned for it as its so "obviously" all her "fault", and gives birth to 10+ kids in her lifetime - we get what we get.
 
Jill Hives said:
I have one son and a daughter on the way, due next Friday actually. These two were not planned, but were sort of happy accidents, albeit inconvenient timing on the both of them...

I was adopted myself and I think it is a wonderful option. Because of how things ended up working out for me, I doubt I will ever adopt, but only because I don't think I can handle having more than 2 kids. I want to be done with all of that now. 2 is enough for me.

I always wondered what the experience of pregnancy and child birth would be like when I was younger and I'm grateful that I got to experience that. It's something I would probably forever be curious about if it never happened to me.
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How exciting! How did I miss this?!?!
 
Though it may appear to be ego, according to evolutionary psychology, there is a more deep-seated instinctual drive for men to reproduce their own children. They have a need to pass on their genes. Unfortunately, that drive also has a quantity over quality approach (ie the more children with more women I have, the more likely at least one of them will live on to pass the genes further).


Disturbingly, 25 out of 1 million infanticides are committed by biological fathers. And 500 out of 1 million infanticides are committed by step-fathers. This an extremem measure from another fact that men are less likely to treat other children as well as their own.

EDIT: In case I misinterpreted what I read, here are the points from the lecture notes:

Canada’s “Family History Survey” & infanticide rate.
Genetic father <25 per million at age 0-2
Stepfather close to 500 per million at age 0-2


To answer the question though, I would much rather have my own biological children. It is complicated. However, I would care no less about an adopted or step-child than my own though. It has been an extremely painful experience dating single mothers and forming bonds with their children. At least with an adopted child, like having my own child, they are less likely to be taken away from me if things don't work out. It hurts more than the breakup itself.
 
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Paladin-X said:
Disturbingly, 25 out of 1 million infanticides are committed by biological fathers. And 500 out of 1 million infanticides are committed by step-fathers. This an extremem measure from another fact that men are less likely to treat other children as well as their own.
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Annnnnnndddd... this is one reason my children will never have a stepfather, in the hopefully unlikely event I ever become single. Although this is colossally unfair to all the good stepfathers out there. :/ Still. No way, not for my kids, at least not until they are 6'3" and self-supporting.

I know plenty of adoptive parents, mothers and fathers, and most healthy, reasonably loving people bond very well with their adoptive children. This is true for men and women.The cases in which the male friends I have who are adoptive fathers bonded closest to their children are "open adoption" cases where they adopted a newborn directly from the bio mom. These cases all turned out beautifully and I just love it!

It is harder if a person has adopted a child who has mental or physical health issues or may be struggling with previous abuse, etc. I have friends who were taken unaware by the challenges involved in adopting toddlers who have had rough starts in life. However, these people have also worked hard and have become loving, if frazzled parents. The man in this particular case seems to particularly enjoy being a father because he gets to participate in fun activities like buying a wave runner and going to Disney world, and he says things like "It's for the kids!" when everybody really knows it's mostly for him. :D Nevertheless, their path has not been an easy one and I would not like to underrate the challenges involved. It's really hard.

I would like to adopt but taking care of two children is enough of a challenge. It is hard to imagine loving other children as much as my biological ones, but I do love children, and always seem to have extra children at my house anyway, without actually adopting them.
 
This might seem like a bewildering analogy, and is in no way meant to diminish the difference between children and animals. But, I wondered whether I could love an adopted child as well as I might a biological one* until I adopted my cat. I adopted an elderly cat, and I beforehand I had likewise wondered whether I'd be able to love her as well as I might a if I adopted a kitten who matured into adulthood with me. The fact is, I can. I would hope the same would apply to children. I've come to learn that love is love. In fact, I'm terrified of reproducing myself because I guess I don't love myself enough to want to see myself externalized and a part of another. But I think I would be capable of loving someone who needed love. And most people are lovable.

*I've always been afraid of not loving my own biological child. So that statement is not to suggest that having a biological child guarantees loving them, although many parents seem to suggest that. Then again, how many neglectful parents spend time reflecting on their own parenting unless they are complaining (or the neglect is out of their control).
 
oceanbreeze said:
. In fact, I'm terrified of reproducing myself because I guess I don't love myself enough to want to see myself externalized and a part of another
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I would wonder what made you decide this is the reason you don't want to have children?

Personally, I don't have children and I don't plan on having children. It wasn't some agonizing decision, it just sort of played out that way. I wasn't focused on getting married or creating a family in my 20s and 30s and now that I'm 43, it doesn't matter at all to me. It didn't have anything to do with the fact I don't love myslef but then I'm do not naturally react to things emotionally. Sometimes a part of me says that I didn't have kids because I'm selfish. My rational mind tells me though, so what if I'm selfish? My mom had children when I was a teenager (14 and 16) and I had no delusions about how difficult infants and children could be. I never found myself thinking wistfully about a "bundle of joy" and whatnot because I had firsthand knowledge about taking care of multiple small infants and that was just as a helper.

I get along well with children though. I would be hesitant to be involved with someone who had children but it wouldn't be a deal breaker. In Native tradition, we don't see any difference between adopted and biological. There is no reference to "step" children or "step" parents---in fact, I find that the most disgusting, disrespectful terminology ever. If I chose to care for a child as my own, they would be my child, period. At this point, no biological children but there is always the possibility of choosing to parent a child.
 
*I've always been afraid of not loving my own biological child. So that statement is not to suggest that having a biological child guarantees loving them, although many parents seem to suggest that. Then again, how many neglectful parents spend time reflecting on their own parenting unless they are complaining (or the neglect is out of their control).
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Well... you know, it's wise to think of that potentiality, because parenting isn't necessarily an automatic love-fest.

It's complicated! It is perfectly possible to love your children and desperately need a break from them at the same time. You may sometimes feel torn, I do.

I think if you over-idealize the love part you may run into trouble. The thing to remember is loving them = doing the right thing by them, and that is not always going to be enjoyable for you. Love is not all you need, I don't care what John Lennon said; however, it definitely helps and is probably the most important thing.

However, parenting is not one long martyr march either, and it is very snuggly and loving and oftentimes fun.

I do think the difficulties are oftentimes downplayed and that is not fair to people, it's dishonest.

Trust me, there are times I've not liked my children one bit, they can be difficult and demanding, and exceedingly self-centered, and there has been a fair amount of bodily pain and discomfort and sleep deprivation involved in the whole process. If you had a romantic partner like that, you'd dump his @$$ in a heartbeat. At the same time it is a visceral, addictive, intense love. Very complicated.
 
Stormy1 said:
I would wonder what made you decide this is the reason you don't want to have children?
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It sounds like you're asking the latter, but just to be sure I understand your question, do you mean why I'm afraid of loving myself in the first place so much so that I don't want to see myself externalized, or why I think this is the reason behind my lack of desire to give birth?

If it is the latter, this isn't the only reason, but I think it applies. It's relatively complicated and a new proposition to my mind, so I haven't thought it out.
I'm also just not sure that I want to give birth. It seems like a terrible process. And although I respect anyone who chooses to have children via the biological route and understand that reality is not necessarily so simple or clear-cut, I don't know if I would feel comfortable adding a child to this world to whom I would them apply my resources when there are so many already without homes and in need of love and belonging.

(possible TMI) Interestingly enough, this isn't so much a reason as it is an observation, I think pregnancy would be a mindfuck for me. I've always pretty much felt like a dude, although I've wanted to be female and am biologically female. I feel like my esesence is male, and I'm often surprised to find myself in a female body in spite of the fact that I'd like to feel feminine and to be female. I feel like I need to learn how to be female. It doesn't come naturally to me. Also, the demands our culture has on gender roles is ridiculous, in my experience. I expect to be able to be not-girly, and I want my guy to be sensitive and kind. More than anything, I want us to be balanced and individuals, not genders, although I might enjoy playing certain gender roles in an accepting environment but as a means of personal expression not as acts of conformation.

@Stormy1 Btw, I love your cultural perspective on children and child-rearing. My parents are both living, married, and have not divorced so I can only speak to it as an outsider, and certainly not as a child with a step-parent, but it makes much sense to me.
 
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Stormy1 said:
I get along well with children though. I would be hesitant to be involved with someone who had children but it wouldn't be a deal breaker. In Native tradition, we don't see any difference between adopted and biological. There is no reference to "step" children or "step" parents---in fact, I find that the most disgusting, disrespectful terminology ever. If I chose to care for a child as my own, they would be my child, period. At this point, no biological children but there is always the possibility of choosing to parent a child.
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That is very interesting. I have two siblings that I only each share one parent with. I refer to them as my sister and brother. Everyone else seems to want to correct me by saying half-sister and half-brother. Which sounds dumb to me. Not to imply anyone is dumb by association. Is it the same in Native culture for siblings as with "step" parents/children?
 
Yes it is the same with siblings.

Additionally, to take it one step further, there is no differentiation between those you choose to call family either---brother/sister or mother/father (grandmother/grandfather)(parent/child). Sometimes one might say "I took them as a sister" or somesuch if it seems someone has a question (generally because they know your family or their family). Natives believe that you can "take" people on as relatives because you say they are your family--so they are. There is no need for some type of official relationship like a marriage or even an official relationship between any other members of each of your families.

Many times there is no distinct hierarchy between relatives either. In my family, those of an age of me are my cousins--no first, second or third crap...those of my parents age are aunts/uncles (regardless of supposed familial connection--like they would be considered cousins by white man way) and those of my grandparent's age are grandma or grandpa. The kids of my cousins are my nieces and nephews. I didn't know the supposed "true" nature of my famiial ties until I got older and learned how geneology works in judeo-christian terminolgy.
 
Sriracha said:
I would only consider adopting if it was a blood relative. I would adopt or take guardianship of my nieces and nephews (on both my side and husband's side of the family.) I prefer biological.

I remember there was a time when I thought I would want to adopt or foster children. This was before college internship with DFCS and a psychiatric facility. No thank you. Yes I saw how children can be easily bounced around from foster placement to foster placement, but the public is never given the details why. Some details are enough to turn your stomach, like a teenage girl hopping in bed with the husband while he's taking a nap and he awakes to her unbuttoning her blouse saying that he is going to have sex with her or she'll tell authorities that he tried to rape her. Don't even get me started with the kids who hoard their excrement. :S

Children who do not have diagnosable illnesses are very easily adopted, and most often by their foster families.
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That sounds really dreadful. It is probably better in a way to adopt a young baby but babies are not as available. I would not really agree with you about children with no diagnosable illnesses being easily adopted. I think that some racial minority children and children with physical disablities have difficulties being placed. I most likely will never meet a suitable partner or have biological children and I am very committed to adopting children if and when I can afford to. Biology does not matter to me at all.
 
Stormy1 said:
Yes it is the same with siblings.

Additionally, to take it one step further, there is no differentiation between those you choose to call family either---brother/sister or mother/father (grandmother/grandfather)(parent/child). Sometimes one might say "I took them as a sister" or somesuch if it seems someone has a question (generally because they know your family or their family). Natives believe that you can "take" people on as relatives because you say they are your family--so they are. There is no need for some type of official relationship like a marriage or even an official relationship between any other members of each of your families.

Many times there is no distinct hierarchy between relatives either. In my family, those of an age of me are my cousins--no first, second or third crap...those of my parents age are aunts/uncles (regardless of supposed familial connection--like they would be considered cousins by white man way) and those of my grandparent's age are grandma or grandpa. The kids of my cousins are my nieces and nephews. I didn't know the supposed "true" nature of my famiial ties until I got older and learned how geneology works in judeo-christian terminolgy.
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I like this mindset so much I would like to be adopted now. :D No, really, that whole idea is awesome.

I have a relative too who falls into this category and I am always frustrated by saying, well, she's a relative but not really a relative, and then people think I am either crazy or lying when in fact it makes perfect sense. I was stuck with using the word Godmother, for lack of a better term. It seemed to help people understand.
 
In evolutionary terms, women do not need to have a keen interest in a child being her own. Women only need to be very attached to whatever baby they have in their care. Without technological intervention, women always give birth to their own children and so, only need to look after whatever babe is dropped into their lap.

Men on the other hand, cannot be so assured that this baby or that is his own child - and so in evolutionary terms, it is more imperative that he look for similarities between the baby and himself, before he devote his energies/resources to the raising of that child. (Incidentally, before the commonplace use of mirrors, which is fairly recent - men's reference points for identifying his offspring are mostly body, not facial features).



If there's any point: Women who want to adopt a baby for whatever reason: don't presume that a man will be as keen.
 
Honey said:
That sounds really dreadful. It is probably better in a way to adopt a young baby but babies are not as available. I would not really agree with you about children with no diagnosable illnesses being easily adopted. I think that some racial minority children and children with physical disablities have difficulties being placed. I most likely will never meet a suitable partner or have biological children and I am very committed to adopting children if and when I can afford to. Biology does not matter to me at all.
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It's so important we have people in this world with different viewpoints. Where one sees weakness, one can see strength. This is why I'm so glad that none of us are exactly alike. :)
 
At this stage of my life i definately do not want to have more children. One is certainly enough for now. That could change in the future. I would certainly consider adopting children and would prefer it over giving birth again. Simply because there are so many children that need a loving home and i would be able to provide that. I have no doubt that i would love an adopted child as much as my biological child. How could it be any other way? In the meantime i am looking foward to my ex having children with his current partner so that i have more children around the home to love. I always tell my daugter that all children are her brothers and sisters. So she has billions, whether they know it or not.

I dont think 'blood' is important. Family is chosen, not given. Someone becomes family because of the connection and sense of responsibility we feel towards them. Love is a choice we make continously. Family is someone we choose continously.
 
I prefer adoption due to certain genetic issues. I would feel uncomfortable bringing a child into the world knowing what I know about my family tree.

-Anna
 
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