Classic fairytales - soooo unfair

[under skies]

I was referring to the Disney movie. In the end, it's her father who has to turn her into a human woman. And, if it were the prince who chose to be a merman, we would be pinpointing that. If it were a theme that men make these sacrifices to be taken care of by women, we'd be criticizing that, too. I'd hope. I'm sure the heroines in the stories do have positive points. It's just that the story usually revolves around being rescued by a prince and taken care of.

I am familiar with the Disney film, and, in this case, we are talking about very different stories. (I would personally recommend reading the story as I actually much prefer it over the film. You may or may not change your mind.)

If you wish to specifically speak of Disney films, as I pointed out, the woman is the heroine in this story. Yes, there is an element of her trying to please the man (although Ariel did want to be a human before she ever laid her eyes on Prince Eric), but seeing as Ariel was the one to save Eric, the story wouldn't make sense if he was the one trying to impress her. Either way, one of them is being rescued and the other is trying to win affection. Would you have been happier if the roles were reversed?

The things is, what stories are we talking about, if not classic fairy tales as literature? Disney princess films? Any Disney films? Fairy tale Disney films?

To give another example in the Disney princess realm, isn't Pochahontas the one doing the rescuing in her film, as well? Refusing to let anyone control her life? And Mulan? And what about Jasmine, a bona fide Disney princess, who also refused to let her father decided who she was going to marry and what her future would be?

 

[bamf]

*grins, strikes a pose*

Say, maybe you'll make me dinner sometime and I'll pretend I'm interested in hearing about what you bought at the mall...?

(Aw, mf, I lurves you *hugs)

You know how much I like house work, and fixing supper. I bought a blender at the mall today so I can make you more protein smoothies, and a quiet vacuum so I won't wake you up from your nap when I'm cleaning up the house. I also bought the baby some ultra-fresh diapers so you won't have to smell it's 'business' before I get around to changing it.
(the feeling's mutual, you hunk *hugs back*)

***on topic
-Does anyone ever notice that the bad guys in these fairy tales are often a different skin color than everyone else? Just take Disney's The Lion King for example. Scar (who is darker than all the other lions) takes over with a pack of less-than-intelligent hyenas. Xenophobia/racist much?

 

[sassafras]

I am familiar with the Disney film, and, in this case, we are talking about very different stories. (I would personally recommend reading the story as I actually much prefer it over the film. You may or may not change your mind.)

If you wish to specifically speak of Disney films, as I pointed out, the woman is the heroine in this story. Yes, there is an element of her trying to please the man (although Ariel did want to be a human before she ever laid her eyes on Prince Eric), but seeing as Ariel was the one to save Eric, the story wouldn't make sense if he was the one trying to impress her. Either way, one of them is being rescued and the other is trying to win affection. Would you have been happier if the roles were reversed?

The things is, what stories are we talking about, if not classic fairy tales as literature? Disney princess films? Any Disney films? Fairy tale Disney films?

To give another example in the Disney princess realm, isn't Pochahontas the one doing the rescuing in her film, as well? Refusing to let anyone control her life? And Mulan? And what about Jasmine, a bona fide Disney princess, who also refused to let her father decided who she was going to marry and what her future would be?

But why does every Disney heroine require a princely counterpart? There are plenty of Disney movies with male protagonists that do not have a romantic interest that is the cornerstone to their entire adventure, yet the entire "princess" canon chiefly revolves around romance; the need to connect with a significant in order to get her happy ending. Why can't a princess just set out to do her own thing, outside of the want for love?

Princess Jasmine may have refused to listen to her father, but she had to, in effect, in order to become a love interest for Aladdin. She wasn't a stand alone character by herself. Pochahontas wouldn't have accomplished what she did if it were not for her love for John Smith. Same story with the Little Mermaid. Belle's classic traits of femininity were what balanced out the man in the Beast.

I think the only "princess" who does not star in her own love story is Mulan; that girl has a noble goal that falls outside of pursuing a man. The dude she gets together in the end is just a bonus and their relationship is rather understated altogether.

Anyway, this is turning into a ra-ra-girl power conversation, and that's not exactly where I wanted to steer this boat. My point is that the Disney princesses, no matter how 'different' some of them are from one another, still fulfill the same, tired ol' female function as a romance heroine, whereas Disney films with male protagonists allow for a larger variety of genres. If anything, this trend still shows us that women are still intrinsically tied to their role as mates or one incomplete pair of a couple rather than as individuals.

I can't think of too many classic fairy tales that defy this formula either.

 

[acd]

I mentioned earlier, under skies, that I would be just as cynical were men the ones constantly being rescued and cured of life's troubles through the love of a wealthy woman. . . .

I don't think that these ideals benefit men, either, even if they are the ones being sought after and doing the rescuing.

It's not only in fairy tales, but in romance movies as TDHT and I mentioned right down to advertising. It's just interesting to talk about them as they are in a medium that seems as frivolous as children's stories.

 

[soulseeker]

And a man is always the rescuer.
Gross!

yap!!!!! why can't they both rescue each other instead !?!?!!? and i wish the women do not appear weak <--- I like Pocahontas

 

[under skies]

But why does every Disney heroine require a princely counterpart? There are plenty of Disney movies with male protagonists that do not have a romantic interest that is the cornerstone to their entire adventure, yet the entire "princess" canon chiefly revolves around romance; the need to connect with a significant in order to get her happy ending. Why can't a princess just set out to do her own thing, outside of the want for love?

Princess Jasmine may have refused to listen to her father, but she had to, in effect, in order to become a love interest for Aladdin. She wasn't a stand alone character by herself. Pochahontas wouldn't have accomplished what she did if it were not for her love for John Smith. Same story with the Little Mermaid. Belle's classic traits of femininity were what balanced out the man in the Beast.

I think the only "princess" who does not star in her own love story is Mulan; that girl has a noble goal that falls outside of pursuing a man. The dude she gets together in the end is just a bonus and their relationship is rather understated altogether.

Anyway, this is turning into a ra-ra-girl power conversation, and that's not exactly where I wanted to steer this boat. My point is that the Disney princesses, no matter how 'different' some of them are from one another, still fulfill the same, tired ol' female function as a romance heroine, whereas Disney films with male protagonists allow for a larger variety of genres. If anything, this trend still shows us that women are still intrinsically tied to their role as mates or one incomplete pair of a couple rather than as individuals.

I can't think of too many classic fairy tales that defy this formula either.

Every Disney heroine does not have a counterpart, unless you are strictly referring to Disney princess movies, and that wouldn't really be fair considering there are definitely Disney movies about female heroines that are not princesses and don't have romantic opposites just as there are films of male heroes without love interests. Many of them do have both male and female characters because they are about love, and the heroines in them are female because many young girls do enjoy hearing about ~tru luv (re: Twilight is undoubtedly popular, right?), especially from a feminine perspective.

If you ask me, I feel like the women get the upper end of the stick, though. I would hardly call princes Charming, Philip, or Eric well-developed characters; Charming doesn't even have a legit. name. Aladdin, out of the Disney princess films, is where we get the fullest personality, seeing as, for once, he is the protagonist, and he's a huge liar! Not exactly fair to men, either. They're all just handsome air sacs.

I mentioned earlier, under skies, that I would be just as cynical were men the ones constantly being rescued and cured of life's troubles through the love of a wealthy woman. . . .

I don't think that these ideals benefit men, either, even if they are the ones being sought after and doing the rescuing.

It's not only in fairy tales, but in romance movies as TDHT and I mentioned right down to advertising. It's just interesting to talk about them as they are in a medium that seems as frivolous as children's stories.

I don't see that it's a pattern in fairy tales, though, unless you look at specific stories. Of course the genre of Disney romance movies all largely involve redemption through romance, but those aren't the only fairy tales out there.

But to stay on the topic of Disney princess/romance films, it's not always the woman who's being saved by the handsome prince. It's not always the man who is being sought after. The circumstances are very different, so I don't see that you can make those kinds of generalizations.

 

[arbygil]

The original fairytales (without Disney- and PC-sanitizing) are far more dark, and less romantic. They're gothic, IMO, and speak about general lessons. Mind you, the lessons tend to be listen to your birth parents and take care to do your chores and be a good/kind citizen, but those stories were always far more interesting to me (maybe due to their violence).

I do agree, however, that the first impressions a little girl has on the "ideal" relationship tend to either be the male influences in her life or Disney princess crap. If she doesn't have another example to balance her views then unconsciously she will look to these books, movies, and TV shows to build her ideal man. Which is rather sad, because it's rare she will find a vapid, muscular male with nothing going on upstairs but a song for his girlfriend.

And who the heck WANTS that, anyway?

 

[laurie]

Yeah, true, but it's still sooooo unfair.

I think that considering the nature of the patriarchal society of the time, women even having a role was a good thing XD Despite how lame they all were.
Cinderella was one of the more pro-active women in fairytales, but the messages were still the same: women needing to be protected,men rescuing them, the evil stepmothers and absent fathers etc.
All of them were developed into character roles by Propp and can be found it pretty much every story today. So, although they were unfair portrayals, they allowed the development of more equality in the end

 

[Jana]

There's no such thing as 'just a story.' Especially not where fairytales are concerned. All the archetypes are tightly packed pockets of cultural information, passed on orally.

If anything, I think it would be beneficial to examine them as roots to our modern day culture.

I agree completely!

 

[Seeking]

Cinderella: I'm reading an older version from Gutenberg.

The mother dies and tells her daughter, “My child, always be good, and bear everything that occurs to you with patience; then, whatever toil and troubles you may suffer during life, happiness will be your lot in the end.” This was a common way to communicate. This was some time during the Middle Ages, right? Basically the good dying parent telling the child to 'be good'.

I like the premise of the story, and am guessing it's popular throughout the ages because of this premise; and that is that many girls 'suffer' in their homes, and can't go out alone into the world for some reason. Usually it was very dangerous for a young girl on her own without protection from a father/husband/brother in her life. They'd be taken advantage of by cads or worse. Leaving the protection of home was a great risk. In this version, she is living with her father and his new family but she doesn't tell her father what is happening to her. It says he was so governed by his new wife he wouldn't believe her and would scold her; so she kept quiet. Interesting. Going back to my premise, Cinderella was not treated well by her stepmother because Cinderella was more amiable, charming and beatiful than her own daughters. She was told to do "degrading" chores and to sleep in the garret--basically treated like a servant girl instead of the daughter. The suffering that C had to go through is the reason of the popularity of the story. So many girls IRL relate to this. And especially, I think, the girl who is sensitive and tender-hearted, feels for C and what she is going through. It is C's personality that shines through to the sensitve 'suffering' reader . A story that one goes back to again and again. Hoping that their turn will come -- not necessarily rescued by a man for marriage, but a chance at getting out of suffering and into a brighter future.

Another point is C's forgiving nature. She is not bitter because of her lot. Her nature is to help her step sisters -- for ex helping them before the ball with their hair and dresses, styling them. It says, "If Cinderella had been at all unamiable she might have dressed their heads all awry, for such unkindness; but she returned good for evil, and did it in the best possible style." It is inspirational. Encouraging.

C is generous, even when most poor. After they leave for the ball, she is crying and hears a knock on the door. An old woman asks for some food. She invites her in to share her dry bread. One can't but admire her character.

Interesting, the fairy godmother was talked about by her father many times. He said that she takes care of good children. haha..

At the ball: "Seated close to her sisters, Cinderella showed them marked attention, and divided with them the oranges and citrons which the prince had given her;" another example of her thoughtful forgiving nature.

Javotte is the name of one of the step sisters

"She was most happy in the love of her husband, the esteem of the court, and the good-will of all who knew her."

THE END

​

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

If only fairy tales were made in 2016 as romance novels

 

[invisible]

I love fairy tales, at times I get obsessed with them. They're a sort of endlessly elastic vessel, endlessly renewable. I love Tennant's "Ever After", it's so fabulous. I wrote a retelling of Cinderella once. In my retelling the Cinderella completely loses herself in dancing all night with the Prince at the ball and so incenses the stepmother and sisters by her rapturous dancing that the next day they hold her down and cut her feet off. The Prince finds her and throws the slipper away and carries her out, then has the stepmother and sisters tortured to death without the knowledge of the Cinderella, after promising her he won't harm them, and she never finds out, and they live happily ever after. Brutal! I don't know why I thought of it. But I love a violent retelling. And it does nothing to harm Cinderella, she's there ready to dance all over again through another new retelling, ready for some new turn of events, some new ending.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

I would like to point out how different actual fairy tales were before Disney

 

[invisible]

Some of the Disney ones are kind of cool, some are yuck. I really enjoy the Little Mermaid one, it seems to give "voice" a thoughtful treatment. The worst one I've seen is Snow White, I find it very weird and I don't enjoy it at all. I think those particular retellings are so culturally loud that they sort of make it seem like other retellings aren't happening... but the stories are more resilient than that and the retellings continue to happen.

 

[Gaze]

Maybe it would be interesting to see the original darker versions of these fairy tales made into films, as they were originally written, rather than the stereotypical retellings they've had in Disney.

 

[PintoBean]

I have always thought fairy tales are kind of painful in some of the truths (as well as false stereotypes they reveal). When I became aware of child predation I realized that is the archetypal troll under the bridge, cannibal witch etc etc. The villains are not really cartoonish IMO, but all too real. They were perhaps cautionary tales to children before the good touch/bad touch lecture. I was particularly moved by Hans Christen Anderson's The Little Mermaid, and it has stuck in my mind for decades. It is so viscerally painful to think that in exchange for being with her prince, she must literally become a fish out of water, so to speak, and that walking on her human legs will stab her with each step like knives. How much we all compromise in life, how much we give up for those we love. We all long to swim back somewhere, but something/someone keeps us grounded, no matter how much it hurts and takes from us.

 

[Gaze]

I have always thought fairy tales are kind of painful in some of the truths (as well as false stereotypes they reveal). When I became aware of child predation I realized that is the archetypal troll under the bridge, cannibal witch etc etc. The villains are not really cartoonish IMO, but all too real. They were perhaps cautionary tales to children before the good touch/bad touch lecture. I was particularly moved by Hans Christen Anderson's The Little Mermaid, and it has stuck in my mind for decades. It is so viscerally painful to think that in exchange for being with her prince, she must literally become a fish out of water, so to speak, and that walking on her human legs will stab her with each step like knives. How much we all compromise in life, how much we give up for those we love. We all long to swim back somewhere, but something/someone keeps us grounded, no matter how much it hurts and takes from us.

I agree, but I also appreciate the message in her story, however limiting in it's scope of women's opportunities, because it still reflected the importance of a young woman's right to make her own choices physically, emotionally, and socially rather than be protected by everyone from the "dangers of the world". Every decision she took, she faced head on, and accepted the consequences. She was the heroine in that story, not simply because she "got her man" although that was what she wanted, but because she fought against her father's wishes and crossed to another world to make a different life for herself, which wasn't easy. She just wanted to live, and experience life for herself. Yes, she was naive and idealistic, but at least she was able to see the world how she wanted, and decide if it is what she expected, rather than feeling imprisoned to her father's over protection. And of course, the father sacrificed himself to save her.

 

[Siimplicity]

they come from once upon a time ... and researchers are finding that some of these stories even had prehistoric roots. I guess the whole gender inequality thing was not of particular issue when you are trying to mete out your existence in the Bronze Age. I think it is pointless to compare them to the PC culture of today ..unless it is to contrast the privileged and cozy life many enjoy now

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35358487

 

[Seeking]

If only fairy tales were made in 2016 as romance novels

What do you mean?

 

[Seeking]

Maybe it would be interesting to see the original darker versions of these fairy tales made into films, as they were originally written, rather than the stereotypical retellings they've had in Disney.

Yes. I like that. I think the ones with real people (not animated) do a pretty good job of that.