Conspiracy Theories

I agree with this.

People are often afraid of me because I ask questions. Something about challenging people's beliefs by suggesting alternative possibilities is very threatening to them. It's much easier for them to make fun of the questions and questioner than it is to be open minded and invest the cognitive effort into exploring the possibilities.

EXCATLY!!! Its so much easier to except something with what the masses do or say. and its SO anooying to me when people do JUSt that.

It is not open minded to assert theories divorced from extant scientific data. That is, there has to be some basis for an asserted opinion. There are no data supporting the remote propagation of "brain waves" as far as I know. If you know otherwise, citations? Don't confuse "open minded" with decidedly uncritical thinking.

I Really liked the way you put that. And no- i have no citations of such tings...but if there were...who would belive it? Who would not be among those who say "people are gunna believe what they want or hear what they wanna hear?" Citations, proof, all that-thats my probem here. that people ONLy except the answers they hear! and from Scientist at that! and only scientist!...so annoying...

This is exactly how we got where we are now, by the use of the scientific method and critical thinking. Hypotheses derive from observation and previously established knowledge. Then they are tested by experiment and the results are incorporated into and integrated with established canon. If you think that brain waves propagate outside the brain, propose a mechanism and prove it. In the meantime, if you're interested, read about neurophysiology. If you're not interested, read science fiction.

no no no no no! your not hearing me!

EVerything SINGLE thing from your paragraph above is completely based off of science. but why is Science the ONLY way to believe something?????

Why has Science become Some Religion!!!

Either you believe What "Scientist" Tell you, or your laughed at!

WHERE THE HELL ARE PEOPLE THINKING FOR THEIRSELVES!

It pisses me off that that guy said my ideas are laughable NOT becuase i took it disrespectful but because he doesnt hear himself! but is DAMN quick to laugh at my ideas! And why? Becuase i dont believe that "Scientist" know or have EVERY possible Tool to prove something? That sounds obsurd! To say that scientist could prove what could be a freaking miracle to be wrong only becuae their "TOOLS!" didnt or CANt prove it!- makes me vey mad! once again...I dont like how people think were so great now and have reached our full potential. Theres too much of that. Too much. We need to realaize that there ARe things we dont know- or may not be able to prove bcuz we ARE NOT all mighty!

dang...
 
A belief in science does not require one to subscribe to any other individuals position of authority, it has everything to do with subscribing to a process and a set of rules, that being, the scientific method.

Anyway, I think myself replying to this thread any further is a waste of time.
Frankly, there is no nice way to put this Whitefire89, but you haven't shown yourself to be particularly perceptive.
 
A belief in science does not require one to subscribe to any other individuals position of authority, it has everything to do with subscribing to a process and a set of rules, that being, the scientific method....

.

And You Refuse to see how you continue to prove my point.

That you live off of rules and accept those rules As THE ONLY WAY of what does and DOES not exist in this world. But how can you live off such rules if a human made them up? How can those rules have every answer? They cant. THATs my point. Therefore science is flawed! but when people like me believe out of that realm of science they get looked down upon.

Bam. point said and done.
 
Let's not beat around the bush here. Anyone who asks others to be more open minded is admitting to not having any kind of evidence behind their beliefs and would much appreciate it if you would join them. If being closed minded means following logic, common sense and using your ability to reason then obviously it's not the insult you "open minded" folk have made it out to be.

Many of these junk science claims have been tested by real scientists and there is good reason they don't become common knowledge or show up in the text books...because there is no evidence to support them. So you can go ahead and believe what you want but the rest of the world is going to move on to more important matters like what crazy ailment House is going to cure this week or what will happen to Tiger Woods and his family...and that is not sarcasm.
 
Let's not beat around the bush here. Anyone who asks others to be more open minded is admitting to not having any kind of evidence behind their beliefs and would much appreciate it if you would join them. If being closed minded means following logic, common sense and using your ability to reason then obviously it's not the insult you "open minded" folk have made it out to be.

Many of these junk science claims have been tested by real scientists and there is good reason they don't become common knowledge or show up in the text books...because there is no evidence to support them. So you can go ahead and believe what you want but the rest of the world is going to move on to more important matters like what crazy ailment House is going to cure this week or what will happen to Tiger Woods and his family...and that is not sarcasm.


Ok First off, I have NO insult. I only have MY way of thinking.
And if any one here is taking it as an insult, i tell you dont. I DO get HIGHLY expressive with whati belivev but NONe of it i intended to hurt. Rather open.

And What do you mean By "Junk Science"? Are You Speaking of my beliefs?

And I say again. EXCATLY! I-HAVE-NO-EVIDENCE!

Why would i live of such a thing? Hear me out.-- I keep hearing time and time again, "You have no Proof. You cant prove this, Scienetist Says this doesnt Exist...."

But What your not getting is that you live off what you only see! nothing else! You telling me IM WRONG because SCIENCE CANNOT PROVE IT!

Didnt you hear me b4? Science WAS created by man. Therefore HOW can it have ALL THE ANSWERS? If anyone is going to come at me with anything else PLEASE answer that question!
 
"...Brainwaves are, in part, radio waves."
Um, no... They aren't, actually.
Brainwaves are nothing but extremely weak electrical activity.
They don't radiate in any way, shape, or form.
QUOTE]


What proof do you have of that?...

How can you prove it?


.


....tsh.No. I look back at this and say this may have been said in the wrong way. I said how can you prove its not real but i think i said that in the eyes of science when i did not mean it that way.

My question i meant here is how can you prove it does not exist unless you have all the answers to that which exist in this world. And you simply cannot do that with science in my eyes. I want to say you cant prove it with science period but that would be contradicting my own statments.
 
That you live off of rules and accept those rules As THE ONLY WAY of what does and DOES not exist in this world. But how can you live off such rules if a human made them up? How can those rules have every answer? They cant. THATs my point. Therefore science is flawed! but when people like me believe out of that realm of science they get looked down upon.

It's not so much a matter of "rules" but, rather, principles. These principles work, and have served, and continue to serve, us (and you) well. As an "N," I'm sure you know the difference between rules and principles. Over time, the process of science converges to fact that is accepted through consensus. If, on the rare occasion a basic fact is proven wrong, it is usually through the efforts of a Newton or Einstein. At the edge of science, there is controversy that usually in time is resolved through the scientific method of observation and experimentation. All of us, including you, prove that we rely on and trust the scientific method by the way we live our lives. That is, we travel on planes, we go to the physician for treatment when we are ill, we listen to the weather report, etc.

One way to determine whether an epistemological process works is that it converges to consensus and is accepted by a majority of people, both experts and laymen.

You use the term "Scientist" as if it were synonymous with "religious leader." This is your interpretation. I think that most religious leaders and scientists would disagree.

It would help if you could clearly express your basic premise in one true and simple sentence. That would help both you and us.
 
:m074:*headache*.. wow complicated explanations..:md:
 
Scientific principles vs conspiracies?

What's the square root of -1? What produces gravity?

The thing is that science does not prove anything other than what is the current theory to dismiss science is foolish because it's the sum total of people's work thus far but to dismiss things which contradict the current theories is also foolish as nothing is set yet. Pretty much everything is up for grabs except labels...

The point being that it's better to say "I don't know" than BS people and that scientists would benefit from remembering that they're dealing in theory and NOT fact.

As for the US bringing weapons to shoot the atmosphere into killing people... it wouldn't surprise me. What would surprise me is if they got it working. Let's face it we've been on solid projectiles and big bangs for a long while now. Aside from HEAT and other such innovations it's been a little too static. It's about time we had lightning guns or something!!
 
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What's the square root of -1?

i for mathematicians, j for electrical engineers. A perfectly valid number, as valid as 0, 1, ... , n, or anything before or in between. I use j all the time. Imaginary though it may be, it works. Indeed, it is one of the more interesting numbers as numbers go.
 
i for mathematicians, j for electrical engineers. A perfectly valid number, as valid as 0, 1, ... , n, or anything before or in between. I use j all the time. Imaginary though it may be, it works. Indeed, it is one of the more interesting numbers as numbers go.
The answer that I love the most is "it's a complex number" which of course is always followed by the challenge of "okay then what is it then? Three thousand four hundred and sixty two is a complex number next to seven so what's the square root of -1?" :evil:

If there's something I hate more than false positives it's jargon! Straight forward talk totally pwns jargon!

( :whistle: )
 
If there's something I hate more than false positives it's jargon! Straight forward talk totally pwns jargon!

( :whistle: )

How about, "It's a term of art."

Once, only patent attorneys used it to specify a word within a specific technical field's lexicon. Now it's everywhere.
 
Xander, good that someone brought the needed agnosticism here. (: Although I'm probably even more extreme.
What's the square root of -1?
It's a donkey. :P You can redefine set theory, arithmetic, calculus, and everything else with donkeys.
Pretty much everything is up for grabs except labels...
Yep, and all the labels are to be reorganized and then thrown away as irrelevant too. (;
Colbert probably isn't interested in scientific education of his viewers; only to entertain them.
1. The scientific method evolves. Its most important step is the ability to come up with hypothesis. Which relies on intuition, and usually even the top scientists cannot justify their own source of intuition completely. So it should be called gut-feeling.
2. The human brain is incapable of reasoning without using its centers of emotion, hence all conclusions are based on gut-feeling.
3. Intelligence is the result of a property of the brain to make predictions, all the time, by interpolating old data. If we had to implant a scepticism-chip in our brains, we wouldn't even be able to walk, let alone doing new science.
 
THis thread is sooo "T"! It makes me question the "F" some of us have in our type monikers. Not the thinking itself, or the "facts" being presented. Just the general tone and the way you all are arguing.
 
There's no "yes" and there's no "no" with conspiracy theories, to be perfectly honest. These ideas aren't meant to be proven - that is why they are conspiracy theories; they're simply meant to be discussed. To be pondered, to be considered. Is it wrong to ponder or consider alternatives to what we think we know? Kennedy's assassination. Bigfoot. Dinosaurs living on planet earth. The Vatican hiding the truth about Jesus. The Illuminati. 2012...etc. Discussion about such things is not wrong. I think it can help develop your critical thinking skills if you do. But simply saying "no, it can't happen" or "yes it's the truth" is impossible with conspiracy theories.

So why not just enjoy the discussion and consider the possibilities without the heat?

Sheesh! I agree with you, QP. T-t-too much T-T-T...it's simply something to think about. Not to get overly upset about.
 
@ Whitefire: I know the feeling of trying to convince people that there are things out there that science can't even imagine to comprehend. Unfortunaly, the people in this world like proof, evidence that supernatural phenomena and conspiracy theories are real. I think it would be a better idea to try to find the proof necessary to show everyone of what you say is true. It's the only way that you're going to make progress and people actually will take you seriously. I've been in your same shoes but I've learned that unless you can show the non-believers tangible and sensible material, don't waste your breath trying to convince others of your point of view. Let the frustration of the sceptics out there to be the motivation necessary to go out there to world and gather the evidence of what they need to see in order to believe. Alas, there will be some poeple that in despite of showing them all the proof necessary, they still won't believe, but it will no longer be your burden of proof, but theirs.

With that said, I hope I didn't offend you, it's just that I know what you're feeling when people think less of your opinions just because they can't be backed up with evidence. Good day to you my friend.
 
Xander, good that someone brought the needed agnosticism here. (: Although I'm probably even more extreme.It's a donkey. :P You can redefine set theory, arithmetic, calculus, and everything else with donkeys.Yep, and all the labels are to be reorganized and then thrown away as irrelevant too. (;Colbert probably isn't interested in scientific education of his viewers; only to entertain them.
1. The scientific method evolves. Its most important step is the ability to come up with hypothesis. Which relies on intuition, and usually even the top scientists cannot justify their own source of intuition completely. So it should be called gut-feeling.
2. The human brain is incapable of reasoning without using its centers of emotion, hence all conclusions are based on gut-feeling.
3. Intelligence is the result of a property of the brain to make predictions, all the time, by interpolating old data. If we had to implant a scepticism-chip in our brains, we wouldn't even be able to walk, let alone doing new science.

Regarding 1. above: Each "step" of the scientific method is important, and no more than another. A hypothesis without experimentation is just speculation, albeit hopefully informed speculation based on previous knowledge. IMO, "gut-feeling" is a step down from "intuition." Intuition is a subconscious mental process that, retrospectively, is justified or not by further logical processes. That is, the accuracy of an "intuitive leap" is only confirmed by additional intellectual effort.
Regarding 2. above: Obviously, the brain as a whole includes "centers of emotion" but that doesn't logically justify your statement that "all conclusions are based on 'gut-feeling.'" Emotional centers may provide the excitement, enthusiasm, and energy to inspire scientific thought, but essential hard intellectual effort is still at the core of scientific thinking.
Regarding 3. above: Predictive ability is only a part of intelligence, and may be a small part at that. Rather more important, but not in any way the whole of it, is our ability to logically process information (e.g., data) and deduce conclusions therefrom. Also, note that, by definition, all data are old.

THis thread is sooo "T"! It makes me question the "F" some of us have in our type monikers. Not the thinking itself, or the "facts" being presented. Just the general tone and the way you all are arguing.

A balanced person of any type, should aspire to feel both like an "F" and think like a "T." My INFJ wife is a physician/medical scientist who can easily hold her own and effectively argue with the most detached "NT." Indeed, she sometimes acts like an INTJ like the best of them. Yet, as an NF, she brings an exquisite sensitivity and skill to the doctor-patient relationship that often helps her to diagnose difficult conditions that elude the most discerning NT's. I am convinced that the great Soviet physicist and courageous freedom activist, Andrei Sahkarov, was an INFJ. I am certain that he used his "T" as remarkably effectively as he used his "F."

There's no "yes" and there's no "no" with conspiracy theories, to be perfectly honest. These ideas aren't meant to be proven - that is why they are conspiracy theories; they're simply meant to be discussed. To be pondered, to be considered. Is it wrong to ponder or consider alternatives to what we think we know? Kennedy's assassination. Bigfoot. Dinosaurs living on planet earth. The Vatican hiding the truth about Jesus. The Illuminati. 2012...etc. Discussion about such things is not wrong. I think it can help develop your critical thinking skills if you do. But simply saying "no, it can't happen" or "yes it's the truth" is impossible with conspiracy theories.

So why not just enjoy the discussion and consider the possibilities without the heat?

Sheesh! I agree with you, QP. T-t-too much T-T-T...it's simply something to think about. Not to get overly upset about.

I really don't mean to assert my "T" nature so much, particularly if it makes people uncomfortable. It's just a lot of fun to dissect arguments and then put new ones together. Sometimes the "T" just slips out! Interestingly, I get uncomfortable in a argument if too much emotion is elicited. I find that when anger is expressed during an argument, things fall apart and the argument needs to stop. That's why I'd much rather argue by writing rather than speaking.

One tangential point of interest (at least, to me) is the use of the word "theory." Typically, most people use the word legitimately to mean some assertion that is unproven (almost like a hypothesis). Another legitimate use of the word "theory" is to denote the technical content or knowledge related to a particular subject. Thus the term "gravitational theory" means not that gravitation is an unproven phenomenon, but rather, refers to the technical subject matter associated with gravitation. Thus, when "theory" is applied to evolution, it does not mean that biologists consider evolution unproven. It means that the subject is technically complex. Also, an engineering student might say that he is good at theory (e.g., at doing the engineering mathematics) but bad at practical application (screws up in the lab). Such a student would do well to stay in academics.

Please excuse me for contributing to the "T" feeling of this thread. I apologize if it has made people uncomfortable. Now I shall retreat back into my INTP lair and resume my usual reticence.
 
No, no, no! Come on back, Mr. T... (hee).

It's not that things shouldn't be discussed - and you're very right when you mentioned "balance." The thing is, this should be balanced and the discussion has actually changed from its original design. Perhaps I can create a new thread for it, because it's definitely veered in another direction. Which isn't a bad thing. But it turned from watching something that may or may not be true and discussing that situation (and others like it) to becoming a discussion on critical thinking methods when employed towards conspiratorial ideas. Again, not bad, just...different. So it's nothing against anyone's POV! I actually like discussions like this when they're in context.

Really, I'm more or less trying to bring balance to a discussion that is a mite heavy handed in one direction. But don't leave it...I'll see if I can split the thread (much as I hate splitting threads in mid convo).
 
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