Could Jesus have sinned?

[LucyJr]

Where is my reply?, I want to see it. Why the replies of Sovereign Grace disappear?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Where is my reply?, I want to see it. Why the replies of Sovereign Grace disappear?

Oh, I deleted my own post.

That's all.

 

[Skarekrow]

It is impossible for a man to do good and not be self-righteous. this is written in the Bible.
"All your good deeds are like filthy rags" - Issaiah 64:6
And, if he would not be self-righteous, that means he would be...God righteous. Is your Buddhist God-righteous ?

How is that impossible Lucy? When I say self-righteous I am implying that he is being smug and pious.
Good works can be done without flaunting the fact that you have done them to others and thinking you are now better than someone else.
And I am not Buddhist just so we are on the same page...it was an example...it could have easily been Muslim or Taoist.
And it does make God unjust if a good man is punished just because he isn’t considered a “Christian”.

It doesn't make God unjust....by contrary, it makes Him Just, as He is always.


The Law has never changed, and is impossible even for God to chnage the Law. Why? Because the Law is a expression of the moral nature of God. So for God to change the Law, that means God to change Himself, which is again impossible, or the other option, God to have multiple personalities. But God is always consistent with His own nature. Otherwise< he would cease to be God. But that again is impossible, for God can not cease to be God...His attributes are the only unchangeable truth.

You said the Law was changed...and that is wrong. The Law has been fulfilled, by the death of Jesus Christ. Here it is:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” Matthew 5:17

The law DID change Lucy...”A NEW command I give you...” That means it wasn’t there before that moment.

That is true, but the context that you see is wrong, and thus your understanding is wrong. The true context is different.
I don't know to explain exactly where you are wrong, but I will think to it and give you the answer.


Even the New Testament say this in quite a few places. Paul exhorts the slaves to be in submission to their masters. So I don't think you are correct.

The Bible never says that slavery is wrong...not once...it does in fact give you guideline on how to treat your slaves.

While Sovereign Grace is a bit harsh and not really wise in my opinion (and I'm sory to say this @SovereignGrace), most of the things he says are true. And most certainly he doesn't preach any hate.

Truth and the Bible are very subjective. I can list pages of information on how and why and where the Bible has been altered and changed.
Once again...I’m not saying that that means the Bible doesn’t contain a wealth of wonderful teachings and thoughts...but to say that it is all factual is wishful thinking.

 

[dudemanbro]

He had the capacity to sin. He could have sinned at any time if he chose to - and sin is a choice. He was tempted, but did not act. He must have been tempted, in order to understand the mind of the fallen man, to experience it first hand.

When you think about it, a lot of concepts in religion are paradoxical - yet this is how I find them to be true. I look within myself and know it.

Man, I love the story of Jesus!

 

[Skarekrow]

No, its not about how people acted.

It's about truth and error.

Asking questions isn't the problem either.

But it should be expected that not everyone's going to be wishy-washy. Some people are going to have CONVICTIONS.

And so it should be expected that people with convictions will speak up when the SINLESSNESS of CHRIST is challenged.

Right?

Having convictions is NOT the same thing as speaking the truth SG.
I have a very strong reaction to anyone who follows anything blindly without questioning it, studying it, doubting it.
We wouldn’t have been given the intellect to question such things if we weren’t expected to use it.
In fact...we would be still living in caves if it weren’t for people having doubt...wondering if that was the best that they could do?

Like us, Jesus knew doubt. Like us, Jesus knew fear. In the garden of Gethsemane, with attackers closing in around him, Jesus told His disciples, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death.” He fell to his knees, pleading with His Father, saying, “If it is possible, may this cup be taken from me.” And yet, in the end, He confronted His fear with words of humble surrender, saying, “If it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
That does not diminish Jesus’s achievement that He set out to do...He HAD to know fear, doubt, love...the whole gambit of emotions and experiences in order to fully sympathize and empathize with mankind.
You are preaching ignorance and BLIND faith...open your eyes.
You can go on believing what you want...in fact, it’s wholly wonderful that you have such convictions...but when you start trying to shove them down the throats of others is when people have bad reactions to you. You can try and justify this any way you wish...saying that you are commanded to...fine...you made you case...we get where you are coming from.
But guess what? Not everyone believes the same way you do...not respecting that makes you a bigot.
Have you ever heard that you can attract more flies with honey than you can with vinegar?
My Dad used to say that all the time.
Seriously...you need to work on your social interaction skills...you immediately turn people off and put them on the defensive.
(this is my attempt to help you now btw)
If you want to spread the message you are trying to convey then you should be less condescending. No one likes being told they are wrong, and they especially don’t like being criticized when it is anything but constructive or helpful.
And again....why create thread on this forum asking about the beliefs and convictions of others when you fully intend to tear them down when they don’t match up to your superior standards?
It makes no sense.

 

[SovereignGrace]

When I say self-righteous I am implying that he is being smug and pious.

That's not what self-righteousness is.

Self-righteousness is believing that you are righteous (just, morally right, right with the law, right with God, etc.) because of what you do and don't do.

That's what all men are by nature: Unrighteous, yet believing they're righteous, and seeking to make themselves more righteous.

But righteousness can not be performed by one who is unrighteous by nature. A bad tree can't produce good fruit.

Righteousness is the nature of God. It's absolute perfection and holiness.

It can only be obtained and accounted to sinners through the substitutionary death and atonement of Christ, applied to the sinner by God-given faith.

If you don't think you need Christ, then you are self-righteous, and you will be condemned for eternity.

But if God purposes to save you, he will show you that you are unrighteous, and you will repent and believe on Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

He had the capacity to sin. He could have sinned at any time if he chose to - and sin is a choice. He was tempted, but did not act. He must have been tempted, in order to understand the mind of the fallen man, to experience it first hand.

When you think about it, a lot of concepts in religion are paradoxical - yet this is how I find them to be true. I look within myself and know it.

Man, I love the story of Jesus!

I'm not questioning your sincerity, but you are totally wrong.

Christ is utterly incapable of sin. He's God.

 

[Skarekrow]

That's not what self-righteousness is.

Self-righteousness is believing that you are righteous (just, morally right, right with the law, right with God, etc.) because of what you do and don't do.

That's what all men are by nature: Unrighteous, yet believing they're righteous, and seeking to make themselves more righteous.

But righteousness can not be performed by one who is unrighteous by nature. A bad tree can't produce good fruit.

Righteousness is the nature of God. It's absolute perfection and holiness.

It can only be obtained and accounted to sinners through the substitutionary death and atonement of Christ, applied to the sinner by God-given faith.

If you don't think you need Christ, then you are self-righteous, and you will be condemned for eternity.

But if God purposes to save you, he will show you that you are unrighteous, and you will repent and believe on Christ.

You THINK YOU are right...and yet you are incredibly retarded when it comes to talking to people or trying to convey a message.
You would be a terrible salesman.

By your own definition YOU think you are self-righteous.
Except by thinking you are so correct and incorruptible you have fallen for the sin of pride.
(deadly sin btw...have fun with that)

 

[sprinkles]

[video=youtube;dI_zmy5aTDI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI_zmy5aTDI[/video]

 

[Skarekrow]

I'm not questioning your sincerity, but you are totally wrong.

Christ is utterly incapable of sin. He's God.

Once again....even when someone talks about how much they love Jesus...YOU shoot them down...quit being such an a-hole.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Having convictions is NOT the same thing as speaking the truth SG.
I have a very strong reaction to anyone who follows anything blindly without questioning it, studying it, doubting it.
We wouldn’t have been given the intellect to question such things if we weren’t expected to use it.
In fact...we would be still living in caves if it weren’t for people having doubt...wondering if that was the best that they could do?

Like us, Jesus knew doubt. Like us, Jesus knew fear. In the garden of Gethsemane, with attackers closing in around him, Jesus told His disciples, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death.” He fell to his knees, pleading with His Father, saying, “If it is possible, may this cup be taken from me.” And yet, in the end, He confronted His fear with words of humble surrender, saying, “If it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
That does not diminish Jesus’s achievement that He set out to do...He HAD to know fear, doubt, love...the whole gambit of emotions and experiences in order to fully sympathize and empathize with mankind.
You are preaching ignorance and BLIND faith...open your eyes.
You can go on believing what you want...in fact, it’s wholly wonderful that you have such convictions...but when you start trying to shove them down the throats of others is when people have bad reactions to you. You can try and justify this any way you wish...saying that you are commanded to...fine...you made you case...we get where you are coming from.
But guess what? Not everyone believes the same way you do...not respecting that makes you a bigot.
Have you ever heard that you can attract more flies with honey than you can with vinegar?
My Dad used to say that all the time.
Seriously...you need to work on your social interaction skills...you immediately turn people off and put them on the defensive.
(this is my attempt to help you now btw)
If you want to spread the message you are trying to convey then you should be less condescending. No one likes being told they are wrong, and they especially don’t like being criticized when it is anything but constructive or helpful.
And again....why create thread on this forum asking about the beliefs and convictions of others when you fully intend to tear them down when they don’t match up to your superior standards?
It makes no sense.

You THINK YOU are right...and yet you are incredibly retarded when it comes to talking to people or trying to convey a message.
You would be a terrible salesman.

By your own definition YOU think you are self-righteous.
Except by thinking you are so correct and incorruptible you have fallen for the sin of pride.
(deadly sin btw...have fun with that)

I'm not trying to be a salesman. Nor am I trying "to catch flies," so I don't need to use honey at all.

There are plenty of false prophets who do that.

What I'm attempting to do is to inform people of what the Scriptures ACTUALLY SAY.

I've quoted over and over again, the words of CHRIST HIMSELF, saying that he will condemn all who do not come to him, and that he only died for "HIS SHEEP."

And yet, people keep ignorantly assuming that Jesus loves everybody, and died for everybody on the cross.

If you don't like the message, don't blame it on me. It's the words of Christ himself.

Even if you don't believe that the Bible is the Word of God--the fact remains, I'm not making these things up. They are not MY IDEAS.

They are true, whether you believe them or not, and you are only harming yourself by fighting against them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Once again....even when someone talks about how much they love Jesus...YOU shoot them down...quit being such an a-hole.

If he thinks Jesus is capable of sinning, then the "Jesus" he loves is fake, and he's utterly lost.

It would be wrong for me to encourage him to believe in a fake Jesus.

He has to know the truth, or he will be condemned.

 

[sprinkles]

[video=youtube;y4yyEPsUQfI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4yyEPsUQfI[/video]

 

[LucyJr]

How is that impossible Lucy? When I say self-righteous I am implying that he is being smug and pious.
Good works can be done without flaunting the fact that you have done them to others and thinking you are now better than someone else.

Of course it can be done, but usualy is not. I have seen this many times in life. Plus I believe the Bible.
People who don't sleep right, because they think they are "compassionate" and others are not. I can exemplify this to you with psychological types, but I won't, because people will scream at me.

Let me explain this to you better. The natural condition of man is sin. This mean man, althought he doesn know good, does rather evil. And so a man that stop doing bad and makes good deeds, sudenly he has this interesting impression about him that he does good, not like others who do bad, and that he is a moral person, and instead stealing, he does not, and oh, such a great man he is.
That is calling being self-righteous.
Abd the pitiful man does not think that when he does good, he does nothing special, but simply does what he has always would have to do, good, by the virtue of good being good in itself.

And I am not Buddhist just so we are on the same page...it was an example...it could have easily been Muslim or Taoist.
And it does make God unjust if a good man is punished just because he isn’t considered a “Christian”.

I can assure you that God will not punish anyone for not being a christian, as He also would not consider someone righteous by virtue of being a christian. Jesus Christ is the key in all this.

The law DID change Lucy...”A NEW command I give you...” That means it wasn’t there before that moment.

No, the Law did not changed, and never will be.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished”

Now here it is another verses: Matthew 22:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. NOTE: This is the answer of Jesus, so keep in mind that.

So I don't think anything changed in the Law, at least not in the way you think it has changed. The Law remains the same, Jesus had come to fulfill the Law, not to broke it.

But what was Jesus mean by?:
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. - John 13:34

The answer is in the second part:
"just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another".

The standard has been set much more high. With the comming of Jesus, by Him and through Him, we should be able to fulfill the Law to a whole new level, to a much more stric stadard. That's the difference. We are to live like Jesus loved. In the Old Testament, the Law was fulfilled by the power of men, and so the standard asked by God was lower.
In the New Testament, everything is different. Here is a prophecy in Jeremiah 31:

32.not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. ( which is the Old Covenent/Testament)

33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (The New Covenent/Testament)

34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."…

The Bible never says that slavery is wrong...not once...it does in fact give you guideline on how to treat your slaves.

yes, but neither it says slavery is good, so perhaps on this topic the Bible keeps silence?

Truth and the Bible are very subjective. I can list pages of information on how and why and where the Bible has been altered and changed.
Once again...I’m not saying that that means the Bible doesn’t contain a wealth of wonderful teachings and thoughts...but to say that it is all factual is wishful thinking.

I disagree that Truth is subjective. Your own affirmation is subjective then, which means that you contradicted yourself, and that truth is not subjective, and it is objective.

As for the Bible and its alterations, you and I talked already about this. What can I say?
My position, and I think its correct, its that Bible has indeed been changed, by only in a insignificant way, and mostly are copists small errors. Nothing that would change teachings, as God protected His own Word against that.
I mean, you can look yourself just for a thought exercise and read about the Dead Sea scrolls. The whole book of Isaiah is there. The scrolls are older than 2000 years. See how many things have been changed between the scrolls, and the book of Isaiah as is in King James version let's say???

You know what I would do? There are alot of prophecies in the Bible, and many in the book of Isaiah. I would check them to see if these prophecies really are been fulfilled.

 

[magister343]

The law DID change Lucy...”A NEW command I give you...” That means it wasn’t there before that moment.

He was giving them the commandment anew, but it has been there from the beginning.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. [SUP]8 [/SUP]At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

The commandment to love your neighbor as yourself is explicitly part of the Law of Moses.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]“You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Lest you think it applies only to loving fellow Israelites, it goes on to add this:

[SUP]33 [/SUP]“When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. [SUP]34 [/SUP]You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

The only new part of the commandment as Jesus gave it was raising the standard from loving others just as we love our own selves to loving others just as Christ loved us. There is a new ability for us to keep the commandment to love more perfectly, having seen the example of Christ fulfilling the law by perfectly loving us.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

The law has not yet passed away.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]`Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

Note however that heaven and earth shall pass away.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;

While many translations say that the commandments are forever, in the original languages scripture never goes further than saying that they are "for the age." It does not say that they will endure into the next age, into Olam Haba. The principles of God may still stay the same, but may require different actions on our part in a new world.


That a law has not passed away does not mean that it applies to us either though. The Ten Commandments begin explicitly by addressing those to whom it applies, the Children of Israel.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Orthodox Jews have long taught that the Ten Commandments and indeed the Law of Moses as a whole applies to Jews, and not to Gentiles. Gentiles were burdened with far lower standards, the Seven Laws of Noah. These are: The prohibition of idolatry, murder, theft, sexual immorality, blasphemy, eating blood or flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive, and the positive requirement of working for a more just world by supporting an effective legal system.

A gentile who follows these laws out of love for God and for his neighbor is considered to be righteous among the nations, as morally perfect as a High Priest of Israel is only when he has been purified for service in the temple. Those who keep the commandments out of mere prudence rather than love are not considered at all righteous, or of any moral worth.

(Some Rabbis go so far as to say that it is sinful for gentiles to try to keep more laws than this without accepting the Torah as a whole and fully converting to the strictest form of Judaism. It is considered very wrong to teach gentiles to accept something like circumcision if they are not willing to accept all of the law. Such teaching aligns pretty well with the words of Paul.)



The Apostles did not abolish the law of Jewish Christians, but did decide not to burden Gentiles with the whole law. Many think that the Seven laws of Noah are what inspired this decision of the Council of Jerusalem.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]`For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, no more burden to lay upon you, except these necessary things:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]to abstain from things offered to idols, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom; from which keeping yourselves, ye shall do well; be strong!'

 

[rawr]

[mods]closed per OP request[/mods]