Death & Dying

acd said:
[MENTION=5224]Sadie[/MENTION] I'm sorry I never responded to your comment on my post. You said you experienced a peaceful NDE. What was it like?
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It was like going to sleep. The only difference was my body and mind stopped functioning. I forgot to mention I experienced leaving my body and seeing my body from a distance. It didn't last long.
 
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Sadie said:
Thoughts, experiences, feelings, and questions about death and dying.
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I worked at a facility for people with dementia for years. While there was technically a special section for those on hospice (expected to live no more than 6 months), the whole place was really a hospice facility in that no one was getting any better and there was a freight elevator in back from which every resident would eventually depart. I saw many actively dying people. Fed, washed and helped them with every single daily need. I also cleaned and dressed their bodies after they died and were awaiting transport to the funeral home or place of donation. This made me much less scared of dying because it totally demystified it. And it should be demystified. After all, much like breathing and being born, it's something we all have to do, something we all have in common. That it has become so medicalized is a real travesty. The medical establishment's inability to talk realistically about death and dying leads to a kind of medical abuse IMO. Wrongful life is just as bad as wrongful death. I have watched good deaths and bad deaths. I am admittedly more scared of a bad death. But I can think and communicate openly about what I want for myself and loved ones in a good death. And I can plan for it better. Though of course, as the saying goes "the best laid plans of mice and men..." Overall, I'm not scared of dying, I'm scared of doctors and hospitals.
 
PintoBean said:
I worked at a facility for people with dementia for years. While there was technically a special section for those on hospice (expected to live no more than 6 months), the whole place was really a hospice facility in that no one was getting any better and there was a freight elevator in back from which every resident would eventually depart. I saw many actively dying people. Fed, washed and helped them with every single daily need. I also cleaned and dressed their bodies after they died and were awaiting transport to the funeral home or place of donation. This made me much less scared of dying because it totally demystified it. And it should be demystified. After all, much like breathing and being born, it's something we all have to do, something we all have in common. That it has become so medicalized is a real travesty. The medical establishment's inability to talk realistically about death and dying leads to a kind of medical abuse IMO. Wrongful life is just as bad as wrongful death. I have watched good deaths and bad deaths. I am admittedly more scared of a bad death. But I can think and communicate openly about what I want for myself and loved ones in a good death. And I can plan for it better. Though of course, as the saying goes "the best laid plans of mice and men..." Overall, I'm not scared of dying, I'm scared of doctors and hospitals.
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Wrongful life is medical abuse. That statement speaks volumes. Everything you stated was really well said and interesting.
 
I question "wrongful life", in the sense we all have circumstances that differ and we all pass through valleys and trenches. We were not asked if we wanted to be born, though here we are. Indians used to walk out into the prairie or woods and sit to die. There is an emotional calling to warm up to death sometimes. I have also seen people cheat death and live many years after. If I want to die bad enough, I can die. I think that is between me and God. Yet, I look to Him to carry me through tough times; times I cannot go it alone. I was born and I will most likely die one day, as they say. Some believe in a form of afterlife. Who am I to enter it of my own choice? Doesn't that make me different from almost all those who have passed before me?

Wrongful life is to me when a person lives to do others wrongly. The world has many of those.
 
just me said:
I question "wrongful life", in the sense we all have circumstances that differ and we all pass through valleys and trenches. We were not asked if we wanted to be born, though here we are. Indians used to walk out into the prairie or woods and sit to die. There is an emotional calling to warm up to death sometimes. I have also seen people cheat death and live many years after. If I want to die bad enough, I can die. I think that is between me and God. Yet, I look to Him to carry me through tough times; times I cannot go it alone. I was born and I will most likely die one day, as they say. Some believe in a form of afterlife. Who am I to enter it of my own choice? Doesn't that make me different from almost all those who have passed before me?

Wrongful life is to me when a person lives to do others wrongly. The world has many of those.
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Fair enough. I am talking about particularly egregious cases of extending life, not ending of ending a life. Such as giving a 90 year old person with profound dementia an aggressive (and painful cancer treatment). Who but doctors, big-pharma, LTC, hospitals benefit from this kind of thing (which, btw, happens routinely)? I think people on this forum who have experience in healthcare like [MENTION=13729]Free[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION] would agree with me.
 
PintoBean said:
I worked at a facility for people with dementia for years. While there was technically a special section for those on hospice (expected to live no more than 6 months), the whole place was really a hospice facility in that no one was getting any better and there was a freight elevator in back from which every resident would eventually depart. I saw many actively dying people. Fed, washed and helped them with every single daily need. I also cleaned and dressed their bodies after they died and were awaiting transport to the funeral home or place of donation. This made me much less scared of dying because it totally demystified it. And it should be demystified. After all, much like breathing and being born, it's something we all have to do, something we all have in common. That it has become so medicalized is a real travesty. The medical establishment's inability to talk realistically about death and dying leads to a kind of medical abuse IMO. Wrongful life is just as bad as wrongful death. I have watched good deaths and bad deaths. I am admittedly more scared of a bad death. But I can think and communicate openly about what I want for myself and loved ones in a good death. And I can plan for it better. Though of course, as the saying goes "the best laid plans of mice and men..." Overall, I'm not scared of dying, I'm scared of doctors and hospitals.
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As Nietzsche once stated "Die at the right time." Not too early, not too late. I feel quality of life trumps longevity every day of the week.
 
PintoBean said:
I don't fully disagree with you. But let me say this, I have watched the dying decline food and fluids and it is not that bad. It is actually not that bad a way to go, though it is excruciating to watch. It is also alleviated by the regular administration of morphine and anxiolytics and oxygen when breathing becomes labored. There are many nursing articles to this effect. Hospice nurses know how to gently remind patients that they have resolved to stop eating and drinking and the patients are usually grateful for the reminder. It is actually much harder to watch this death, that is arguably what we are all so disturbed by. While the patient is often quite peaceful and enjoying visions or hallucinations (your choice here) of angels and deceased loved ones, we the living are observing their emaciated, desiccated body. Often lips and tongue crack from dehydration. Their limbs become like brittle sticks. It's much harder to watch, but from all accounts medically, it's not actually a bad way to go.
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"Palliative sedation" which is being medicated while declining food and fluids can take up to 7 to 10 days for a person to die. That sounds a little gruesome and midevil. The lasting memory that would leave in loved ones minds is difficult to accept. I suppose when faced with the only other option, which is dying an even slower more agonizing death from say cancer "palliative sedation" can be an option for some.

I'm wondering why we offer animals and death row convicts a quick and painless death but a terminally ill person with less than 6 months left to live is forced to either slowly die of a disease or dehydrate and starve themselves to death. Why do we offer animals and death row convicts who have committed heiness crimes a more humane death than a person with a terminal illness.
 
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Sadie said:
"Palliative sedation" which is being medicated while declining food and fluids can take up to 7 to 10 days for a person to die. That sounds a little gruesome and midevil. The lasting memory that would leave in loved ones minds is difficult to accept. I suppose when faced with the only other option, which is dying an even slower more agonizing death from say cancer "palliative sedation" can be an option for some.

I'm wondering why we offer animals and death row convicts a quick and painless death but a terminally ill person with less than 6 months left to live is forced to either slowly die of a disease or dehydrate and starve themselves to death. Why do we offer animals and death row convicts who have committed heiness crimes a more humane death than a person with a terminal illness.
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I've seen it. It can take months actually if they are only refusing food, but not fluids. Admittedly, it can look horrific. However, the patient is actually quite comfortable usually if palliative care is handled correctly. They are usually greatly relieved at no longer being jerked in and out of wheelchairs, dressed like dolls and offered food they can no longer taste and don't want. They often spend the time saying goodbye to loved ones and it can be very peaceful and healing for the family to have that time together after an arduous illness. "Battling" and "Fighting" a disease is glorified. But when the patient is finally ready to depart their body, often they and their family are not emotionally prepared. The goodbye time is invaluable to many. They slip in and out of consciousness and eventually pass peacefully. I can't think of a one I cared for who was begging for us to just end it all for them. Morphine is a miracle. Yogis have long appreciated the spiritual calm and even euphoria the state of starvation can bring. I encourage you to look up nursing articles on the topic.
http://www.comfortcarechoices.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=72

EDIT: And I actually don't think most of our meat animals have a painless/fearless death. I wish this were the case. Also, I think the death penalty violates the 8th amendment. It is full of mistakes and often a gruesome mess:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/06/execution-clayton-lockett/392069/
 
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[MENTION=13730]PintoBean[/MENTION] My grandmother was in palliative care at the end of her life. It was far more peaceful than the alternative. Also I've been on heavy morphine myself, that shit is amazeballs.
 
When sent to Hospice, they usually are sent to comfortably die: though not always.

We just put to death a man who 20 something years ago killed several people by beating them repeatably with a hammer. Why wait 20 years and let him live? Some would argue he should have been beaten to death with a hammer.

My Dad went to the hospital with ischemic colitis and was told he would die if they did not do surgery. He told them, "No surgery." When asked by the surgeon, I said, "You heard the man. Now fix him." We drove away two weeks later and he lived years later.

While I understand the thoughts and feelings here about "just keeping people alive", I would have a terrible time with "just letting a loved one die" when I don't know what would or could happen. I have lost two I loved dearly in the hospitals. Watching people we love suffering is not the way we want to remember them or even watch them live, but death in the temporal seems so....final. While not fun to deal with, living wills usually can help to make decisions aforehand. Anyone out there have one?
 
just me said:
When sent to Hospice, they usually are sent to comfortably die: though not always.

We just put to death a man who 20 something years ago killed several people by beating them repeatably with a hammer. Why wait 20 years and let him live? Some would argue he should have been beaten to death with a hammer.

My Dad went to the hospital with ischemic colitis and was told he would die if they did not do surgery. He told them, "No surgery." When asked by the surgeon, I said, "You heard the man. Now fix him." We drove away two weeks later and he lived years later.

While I understand the thoughts and feelings here about "just keeping people alive", I would have a terrible time with "just letting a loved one die" when I don't know what would or could happen. I have lost two I loved dearly in the hospitals. Watching people we love suffering is not the way we want to remember them or even watch them live, but death in the temporal seems so....final. While not fun to deal with, living wills usually can help to make decisions aforehand. Anyone out there have one?
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So you're saying your dad declined treatment and had a good few years of life?
BTW, I am mostly talking in my posts about extreme end of life situations. As in when a disease has fully played out its course and all treatments (if there are any) have been exhausted. And yes, I have a living will.
EDIT: It looks like you are saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that he declined surgery, and you told the doctor to go right ahead. I can't really imagine doing this to anyone remotely capable of making that decision for themselves. But I am glad it worked out for your father.
 
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PintoBean said:
I've seen it. It can take months actually if they are only refusing food, but not fluids. Admittedly, it can look horrific. However, the patient is actually quite comfortable usually if palliative care is handled correctly. They are usually greatly relieved at no longer being jerked in and out of wheelchairs, dressed like dolls and offered food they can no longer taste and don't want. They often spend the time saying goodbye to loved ones and it can be very peaceful and healing for the family to have that time together after an arduous illness. "Battling" and "Fighting" a disease is glorified. But when the patient is finally ready to depart their body, often they and their family are not emotionally prepared. The goodbye time is invaluable to many. They slip in and out of consciousness and eventually pass peacefully. I can't think of a one I cared for who was begging for us to just end it all for them. Morphine is a miracle. Yogis have long appreciated the spiritual calm and even euphoria the state of starvation can bring. I encourage you to look up nursing articles on the topic.
http://www.comfortcarechoices.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=72

EDIT: And I actually don't think most of our meat animals have a painless/fearless death. I wish this were the case. Also, I think the death penalty violates the 8th amendment. It is full of mistakes and often a gruesome mess:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/06/execution-clayton-lockett/392069/
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I am an advocate for the 'Death with Dignity' law, which is physician assisted death for people terminally ill with 6 months or less to live. I am an advocate for providing terminally ill people with as many choices as possible and then allowing them to choose. I do not condone making that choice for them nor do I condone forcing terminally ill people to make decisions when they are only offered limited choices. I am pro-choice and pro-options in this matter.

It is an entirely different scenario when it is your life or a loved ones life that is ending and you are looking at what the options are. I recently visited a hospice regarding options for an end of life situation for a YOUNG individual. I was told this by the director, "death is a beautiful experience". I did not ask her what her experiences were regarding witnessing death. I did not ask her to share her religious beliefs with me. I asked her what our options were. Theres a difference. I appreciate your comments and perspective but I do not agree with them. Please respect that.

Edit: I just had to put my dog down. He was old, in a lot of pain, and couldn't keep any food down. He lived a long life. The vet gave him a lethal injection and he peacefully died. No mistakes, no problems, nothing except the grief of our loss.
 
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Meanwhile in Canada. The "right to die" legislation is now coming to Canada. After the Canadian Supreme Court struck down the law prohibiting physician assisted suicide as unconstitutional (per the Canadian constitution) , parliament was given a timeline to come up with a law in 12 months. Parliament was already given a 4 month extension. Carter v. Canada (Attorney General) was handed down on Feb. 6, 2015, so we going to see a law very shortly up here.

The supreme courts decision was unanimous in favour (9-0). The law was found to be violation of Section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 7 protects an individual's autonomy and personal legal rights from actions of the government in Canada and offers three types of protection within the section, namely the right to life, liberty, and security of the person.

The Canadian Supreme Court saw things this way:

1] It is a crime in Canada to assist another person in ending her own life. As a result, people who are grievously and irremediably ill cannot seek a physician’s assistance in dying and may be condemned to a life of severe and intolerable suffering. A person facing this prospect has two options: she can take her own life prematurely, often by violent or dangerous means, or she can suffer until she dies from natural causes. The choice is cruel.

Now we will see how the government will react and what type of law will be enacted.
 
I think physician assisted death should be standardized. If it isn't, how does one know which doctor and at what time they will provide the terminally ill patient with something that will hasten death. I don't like leaving that up to chance. Nor do I like the idea of leaving that up to a loved one to decide. Not all doctors are willing to hasten death in a terminally ill situation. Not all loved ones are capable of making that decision. Not all hospices are the same. Not all hospices are non-profit, some are for-profit businesses.

If terminally ill patients are able to make that choice for themselves it takes all of the guesswork and chance out of the situation. Everyone knows what the patient wants and hopefully respects that. Physician assisted death doesn't seem much different than an addition to a living will, which I know aren't always respected, but at least they exist and the persons life sustaining requests aren't left up to a doctor or loved one, who may or may not believe in hastening a terminally ill persons death. Physician assisted death is simply an additional choice.

I believe terminally ill people should have the right to make their own choice regarding their own death. I don't think they should be put in a position of having to seek out ending their life in what could be disastrous ways because state laws do not allow them to make their own decision about their death. Of course people are grateful for hospice services - what other choices do they have. Plus, people are taught from birth that taking your own life is morally and legally wrong. There are only a few outspoken and courageous terminally ill people who are strong enough and willing to go against the grain and stand up and say, "it is my right as a person with a terminal illness to decide how and when I am going to die".
 
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PintoBean said:
So you're saying your dad declined treatment and had a good few years of life?
BTW, I am mostly talking in my posts about extreme end of life situations. As in when a disease has fully played out its course and all treatments (if there are any) have been exhausted. And yes, I have a living will.
EDIT: It looks like you are saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that he declined surgery, and you told the doctor to go right ahead. I can't really imagine doing this to anyone remotely capable of making that decision for themselves. But I am glad it worked out for your father.
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I told the doctor he had his answer. They had to treat him without the surgery. He lived without the surgery. I loved my Dad and would never have gone against his wishes. I stayed in the hospital two weeks with him and we drove home together. He had other health issues and feared the surgery would have killed him. Power of attorney is for when they cannot make decisions for themselves. His wishes were honored. The doctor that said he would die was proven to have been wrong. I wrote everything everyone did on four legal pads, with their names.

He did not live a healthy life, but he was happy and encouraged everyone around him through his disease. When it came time after a mistake was made in the hospital following amputation, he chose to be removed from the meds keeping him alive and in pain. I gave the go ahead after knowing unmistakingly that was his choice. He was screaming in pain to me that they were torturing him. I think I may have died with him, though my wife and new dog have kept me going. I have to leave this discussion. Please forgive me.
 
just me said:
I told the doctor he had his answer. They had to treat him without the surgery. He lived without the surgery. I loved my Dad and would never have gone against his wishes. I stayed in the hospital two weeks with him and we drove home together. He had other health issues and feared the surgery would have killed him. Power of attorney is for when they cannot make decisions for themselves. His wishes were honored. The doctor that said he would die was proven to have been wrong. I wrote everything everyone did on four legal pads, with their names.

He did not live a healthy life, but he was happy and encouraged everyone around him through his disease. When it came time after a mistake was made in the hospital following amputation, he chose to be removed from the meds keeping him alive and in pain. I gave the go ahead after knowing unmistakingly that was his choice. He was screaming in pain to me that they were torturing him. I think I may have died with him, though my wife and new dog have kept me going. I have to leave this discussion. Please forgive me.
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Got it. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Glad he was able to get some good years even without surgery. I am very sorry for your loss.
 
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