[PAX] Decline of ethics?

Yes that's all true. My point is that Christian culture created the conditions that allowed such ideologies to flourish. ideologies that ironically are antithetical to its doctrines.
 
brightmoon said:
What we know as secular humanist ethics grew out of Christian culture, so to assert that Western culture would be better off without Christianity doesn't make much sense. In a sense Christianity brought us where we are today. Would the Enlightenment have happened without Christianity? Who knows? In the development and intellectual history of our culture you cannot separate out religion. The very thing ideologies which oppose Christianity also grew out of it in some sense. For example when the doctrine of the church was challenged by Luther, the appeal was partially made on reason and this thought was later taken by Enlightenment thinkers which grew into what we know as secular humanism today. This is, of course simplifying the process, but my point is the rationalist ethics that we know developed as a result of Western culture/religion and are unique to it.
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I think to say we would be better off without Christianity one would have to go back ancient times. Ethics and morality predate the Christian religion. The origin of secular humanism is indebted to ancient Greek thought, especially the humanism of the Pre-Socratic philosophers that were rediscovered during the Renaissance. Much of ancient writings were lost because Christians burned many books they deemed heretical. One of the most influential to the modern era was Lucretius's On the Nature of Things, which had one surviving copy into the early Renaissance. Thanks to the printing press, many copies became available during the Renaissance.

The Catholic Church itself developed out of a merging of Neoplatonism and beliefs of the early Christian Church with the Roman government and culture. Keep in mind that Plato despised the atomist, Epicurean philosophy that inspired Lucretius because it rejected the idea of an immaterial soul. Pre-Christian Rome was highly influenced by Greek thought, and was very tolerant of the Pre-Socratics until its adoption of Christianity. Christianity became well established in Europe because of the network the Roman Empire provided. One could argue that if Rome hadn't adopted Christianity, humanist thought from ancient Greek could've remained influential and developed and flourished much earlier.
 
[MENTION=6303]ThomasJ79[/MENTION] Also very true. The secular tradition in Western thought owe a great debt to ancient Greek thought and its later rediscovery. Its very hard to make the argument that humanist thought could have remained influential and developed and flourished much earlier.

Even in the heyday of ancient Greece religion was there. Remember Socrates was charged with corrupting the minds of the youth of Athens and of impiety ("not believing in the gods of the state"). I would argue that religion for many people in human history is essential to their being. They have an impulse, a need to believe which cannot be denied. It doesn't exist in everyone, but its there in many people and it expresses itself in different ways, though the various religions that exist on the planet. In other people this impulse is not as strong. Of course, culture also has a great deal to with how religious or irreligious people are. What makes Western culture different is the respect for the individual and also the conflict between the two points of view which continues to this day.

Consider another cultural point-of-view in Hindu culture, which instead of setting these two ideas in opposition, seeks to integrate them. In Hindu thought there are many pathways to understanding and worship/faith is not required for all of them.
 
brightmoon said:
[MENTION=6303]ThomasJ79[/MENTION] Also very true. The secular tradition in Western thought owe a great debt to ancient Greek thought and its later rediscovery. Its very hard to make the argument that humanist thought could have remained influential and developed and flourished much earlier.

Even in the heyday of ancient Greece religion was there. Remember Socrates was charged with corrupting the minds of the youth of Athens and of impiety ("not believing in the gods of the state"). I would argue that religion for many people in human history is essential to their being. They have an impulse, a need to believe which cannot be denied. It doesn't exist in everyone, but its there in many people and it expresses itself in different ways, though the various religions that exist on the planet. In other people this impulse is not as strong. Of course, culture also has a great deal to with how religious or irreligious people are. What makes Western culture different is the respect for the individual and also the conflict between the two points of view which continues to this day.

Consider another cultural point-of-view in Hindu culture, which instead of setting these two ideas in opposition, seeks to integrate them. In Hindu thought there are many pathways to understanding and worship/faith is not required for all of them.
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True, but Socrates was a known critic of democracy, which was part of the reason he was executed. Greece was in political turmoil during that time. However, Epicurus came after Socrates, and followed the pre-socratic atomist philosophy. He did not believe that worshiping the gods made a bit of difference and the gods were unconcerned with the worries of humans. He was an egalitarian and while he shunned the politics of his day, he was not executed for his beliefs. Of course his philosophy lost sway as it became hip to believe in an immortal soul and in only one god.
 
I long look to the sea for morals, as they drift about with the winds and currents of time. I count the ethical person as they drift away. I feel they have taken to the sea but again: maybe for a rest or energy. They will find land once again, and the few will accept their approach and shelter them ashore. There be many lessons in life from them. They are lessons it would be well for your children to know. There be lessons we all should grasp and ponder. Who has sent them into the sea?
 
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