Determinism VS Free Will

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[MENTION=14282]Clayd[/MENTION]


[video=youtube;bYFLFemN4JU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bYFLFemN4JU[/video]
 
Clayd said:
Furthermore, there are a few experiment conducted in how we make spontaneous choices I'm aware of I.e in one experiment where participants were asked to press a buzzer every time they simply "felt" like it. The results were astonishing. They found that 300 millie seconds before the choices were made the brains showed activity in the prefrontal cortex; a readiness before the decision was explicitly made.

Just remember, many more experiments have shown the same effect, and that 300 milllie seconds is actually a significant time given what we understand about the research acknowledged by that field.
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Doesn't that support my claim? The brain reacts first therby giving you the feeling or making you want to push the button.
 
Grayman said:
Doesn't that support my claim? The brain reacts first therby giving you the feeling or making you want to push the button.
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Can that be the only reason for this jump in brain activity other than - we are tricking ourselves into thinking we are making free choices of our own?
What would be the purpose of this illusion?
Can there not be direction from someone’s “spirit” that could also explain this jump? It’s just as likely given what we don’t know about how our brain’s function.
 
Ray Kurzweil is one of the materialists. He claims that a single computer (at the cost of $1,000) will be able to simulate a human brain in 2029. In 2045, a computer will have the computational power of entire humanity, perhaps 8 billion people. He termed this event 'the Singularity'.

If the 2029 deadline fails, then materialism will be a questionable scientific hypothesis. It follows that determinism is also false. (I am a newbie in this field. I could be wrong.)

It might happen earlier or later too if Kurzweil's time estimate is too pessimistic/optimistic.
 
ImaginaryBloke said:
Ray Kurzweil is one of the materialists. He claims that a single computer (at the cost of $1,000) will be able to simulate a human brain in 2029. In 2045, a computer will have the computational power of entire humanity, perhaps 8 billion people. He termed this event 'the Singularity'.

If the 2029 deadline fails, then materialism will be a questionable scientific hypothesis. It follows that determinism is also false. (I am a newbie in this field. I could be wrong.)

It might happen earlier or later too if Kurzweil's time estimate is too pessimistic/optimistic.
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How does that exclude humans from having a “soul”?

How do we know a computer is truly conscious and isn’t just a bunch of neat tricks of programming that some suggest we are?

That’s a whole other can of worms my friend…haha.
 
Grayman said:
Doesn't that support my claim? The brain reacts first therby giving you the feeling or making you want to push the button.
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Forget it.

EDIT: I didn't wanna say what a retard!! You flipped the argument on its head and conveyed it with arrogance: if you still confused. Check the receipt.
 
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Skarekrow said:
How does that exclude humans from having a “soul”?

How do we know a computer is truly conscious and isn’t just a bunch of neat tricks of programming that some suggest we are?

That’s a whole other can of worms my friend…haha.
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I don't support the whole ghost in machine thing. We can't make no sense of it.

Tho your point was clear.
 
Skarekrow said:
[MENTION=14282]Clayd[/MENTION]


[video=youtube;bYFLFemN4JU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bYFLFemN4JU[/video]
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The coherent answer is No.

What you've done is questioned the construct of time. And that pretty much marvels a lot of us to this day.

I haven't seen the clip, but I'll view we I get the chance just to be sure we're on the same page.
 
Skarekrow said:
Can that be the only reason for this jump in brain activity other than - we are tricking ourselves into thinking we are making free choices of our own?
What would be the purpose of this illusion?
Can there not be direction from someone’s “spirit” that could also explain this jump? It’s just as likely given what we don’t know about how our brain’s function.
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Lol you actually walked him there. How kind.
 
Skarekrow said:
I’m not deterministic at all.
Only stating that our understanding of physics and the quantum realm are incredibly limited.
I don’t discount that our brains could be this evolved biological computer, maybe even a natural quantum computer, which may give rise to not only consciousness but also self-awareness and self-reflection. We simply don’t know yet if the mind and brain are separate or there is no such thing as someone’s “Spirit”…we have the ability to go into the brain and disconnect or reconnect certain areas and we can see what they do or do not…but if the brain is the receiver of someone’s spirit and not the transmitter, then the signal remains constant though it must then be funneled through the brain and any inconsistencies it may contain.
If we look at the many universes model of string theory…well there are 3 main models but anyhow, it would have to exist in a place where time is more flexible…we have gaining proof that we as humans perceive things via precognition on a subconscious level - which would make one question if we actually have free will how can precognition work? And the answer is simple - it is the most likely scenario based upon your current pathway - it’s the collapse of the wave function when it actually happens, but some suggest that it is us that collapse the wave function via our observation or even thinking about it - and experiments have been successfully conducted in labs that suggest if our minds do indeed “stretch out” past what we consider the “present”.
The point is - no one really knows, we have some lab data that we think means this or that and we have subjective experiential data and reports of people being out of body, many clinically dead, and some of them have been able to verify small details, but materialist science explains this as taking place either before or after the body was actually dead - but then why do people have an experience at all then? And why are there so many correlations?
What I mean is time is illusory to us, we cannot perceive it any other way than moment to moment strung together like stills in a projector.
But what I suggest is that you do have free will and those choices impact the future, but also may influence and impact the past though that doesn’t eliminate you choosing to do something. Just that we don’t perceive it as such so we can function without our minds consciously showing us multiple timelines.
The brain as Aldous Huxley explained in his book “The Doors of Perception” (paraphrasing) “…the brain acts as a sort of reducing valve, because we couldn’t function otherwise in our day to day lives.”
This is all just speculation and theory, of which there are many more…I just happen to like these.
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I enjoyed reading that, very insightful.

I mean, I could see how some may view it as transparent but IMHO I believe that those are the building blocks of understanding the main criteria to differentiate what is actually valid from what's secondary, from what's invalid.

The key that resonated with me which you mentioned and which we fail to mention when we speak of determinism is the functions at a subconscious level, which we clearly have no awareness of.
Freud would continuously describe the mind as an iceberg with the conscious mind being the small portion visible tho entire construct was more complex.
 
Clayd said:
Forget it.

EDIT: I didn't wanna say what a retard!! You flipped the argument on its head and conveyed it with arrogance: if you still confused. Check the receipt.
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Sometimes I have to go back into the store and get them to explain the receipt to me. Perhaps I am an idiot or perhaps I just understand their coding.
 
Grayman said:
Sometimes I have to go back into the store and get them to explain the receipt to me. Perhaps I am an idiot or perhaps I just understand their coding.
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What code? You do know what you said don't make sense. Go clear your throat and come back again.
 
ImaginaryBloke said:
Ray Kurzweil is one of the materialists. He claims that a single computer (at the cost of $1,000) will be able to simulate a human brain in 2029. In 2045, a computer will have the computational power of entire humanity, perhaps 8 billion people. He termed this event 'the Singularity'.

If the 2029 deadline fails, then materialism will be a questionable scientific hypothesis. It follows that determinism is also false. (I am a newbie in this field. I could be wrong.)

It might happen earlier or later too if Kurzweil's time estimate is too pessimistic/optimistic.
Click to expand...

The human brain and computers function so differently on a fundamental level I don't know how anyone could make such a claim.
 
Skarekrow said:
Can that be the only reason for this jump in brain activity other than - we are tricking ourselves into thinking we are making free choices of our own?
What would be the purpose of this illusion?
Can there not be direction from someone’s “spirit” that could also explain this jump? It’s just as likely given what we don’t know about how our brain’s function.
Click to expand...

There can never be proof of a spirit causing this jump because a spirit cannot yet be measured. We can only prove that the jump in brain activity is caused by external forces or we can never prove anything at all. Logically the fact that he was there pushing the button because he was asked to is evidence to support that external forces had a play in it.

Finally there is no tricking. The wanting is just the function it uses to cause you to do that thing. You simply named it 'choice'. Choice is doing what you want. In that respect choice does exist. But this reality still defines what you want and therefore you are a product of determinism.

To be clear, I do not suggest that there is no spirit. It is possible that the spirit does not choose but simply observes the sensations of the mind. But there is no accepted evidence that the spirit exists and there is no evidence to support the idea that if a spirit exists that it can alter our reality.

I do have an idea on how to obtain evidence of our metta-consciousness but that is for another thread.
 
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Clayd said:
With that logic. Why do we have prisons? And why do we hold prisoners responsible for their predetermined course?
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All life evolves for with the desire to sustain itself. There is a core morality that exists in all human beings that shares certain values across many cultures. The primary ones are to not kill, to not steal, to not lie. The establishment of these values is important for our survival. However notice that we make exceptions to this consistently when our own lives are the cost of following these values. We will kill to protect ourselves and steal to feed ourselves. Naturally there becomes a struggle between those who have and those who do not have. Sustaining life is the core to our being and the greatest difference in our actions is determined by how we define 'life'. Do we define our existence through our children, our family, our country, our memory, or just the simple beating of our own hearts?

Granted evolution does allow exceptions to exist as that is a part of the grand experiment.

It is natural to want to believe you can choose and to reject the idea that you are just a result of your environment because it is not within you to deny your own existence and to deny that suggests that nothing has any meaning at all.

The real question is how am I now denying it myself if it is not within my programming to do so? The answer is that I do not define life as the choices I make but as the simple process of observing my existence and simply being.
 
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