Did Mary Sin

We are not just going by a salutation in a single epistle when we say that Jesus had physical brothers.

The gospels list 4 brothers of Jesus by name, and also refer to an unspecified number of sisters.

Mark said:
6 He went away from there and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And he marveled because of their unbelief.

And he went about among the villages teaching.
Matthew said:
[SUP]53 [/SUP]And when Jesus had finished these parables, he went away from there, [SUP]54 [/SUP]and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works? [SUP]55 [/SUP]Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?[SUP]56 [/SUP]And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” [SUP]57 [/SUP]And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household.” [SUP]58 [/SUP]And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

It is pretty clear that these are meant literally, not in some mystical sense of all men being brothers in Christ. After all, those who made note of his siblings were not his followers.


The word "brother" is "adelphos," which literally/etymologically means "from the same womb." It was originally only used for siblings who shared the same mother, regardless of who might be their fathers.

However, it is worth noting that by the time of Plato it had already come to be used for siblings in general, including half siblings who shared a father and not a mother. The Septuagint used the term when referring to the sons of Jacob as brothers of Joseph, even when speaking of those with different mothers.

(It is possible for the term "brother" to mean "brother-in-law" and "sister" to mean "sister-in-law," but that does not help us get over the issue of Mary's perpetual virginity. There would still have to be at least 4 siblings total.)


Roman Catholic often claims that the term brothers and sisters would be better rendered a cousins. Scholar from outside of their faith see no reason to do this though. The gospel writers would have used the term "anepsios" if they had meant cousin.

The Eastern Orthodox prefer more reasonable excuse to defend Mary's perpetual Virginity. They claim that Joseph was an older widower who already had several children from his first marriage; he was not really interested in having sex or fathering any more children with Mary, but rather wanted to get married because he needed help raising the children he already had.



Greek scholars usually agree that the word translated as "until" in Matthew 1:25 does not, like its English equivalent, imply that things later changed. It does not at all preclude that possibility either though.
 
I'm a Baptist. And I'm what you might call a "Sovereign Grace Baptist."

But that is NOT to be confused with "Sovereign Grace Ministries", nor is every church with "Sovereign Grace" in it's name what is referred to as "Sovereign Grace Baptists."

That designation implies that we believe in the absolute sovereignty of God in all things, especially in salvation by grace.

Examples of more well-known "Sovereign Grace Baptists" are Don Fortner, Henry Mahan, and Rolfe Barnard.

We also have much in common with English Particular Baptists/Primitive Baptists such as Charles Spurgeon and JC Philpot.

We often quote the works of John Gill, William Gadsby, Robert Murray M'Cheyne, and some of the Puritans such as Jonathan Edwards, as well.

We do not like to be called "Calvinists," mainly because we are Baptists, and not Presbyterians or "Reformed Baptists." But we do believe in what is known as the "Doctrines of Grace" (5 Points, TULIP, etc.)

I cant point you to specific websites and sermon audio if you would like. Just let me know by PM or on my wall.




I've already explained that in another thread, with Scripture quotes and all.

He was formed in her womb miraculously BY the SPIRIT.

He was IMMACULATELY CONCEIVED, meaning without an earthly father, BORN from ABOVE, BORN with the DIVINE NATURE, without sin, or even the POSSIBILITY of sin.

It doesn't matter that Mary was the vessel. He did NOT inherit her sin.

I don't care about genetics, it just doesn't apply here.

Mary was a sinner, and Jesus Christ was NOT.

It's that simple. Anything else is just irrelevant.

Ah baptist, honestly they're protestant the church I have the least experience with(the area I live in is largley pentacostal in sevarl different flavors), do you recognize the baptism of other churches do your require them or are you guys more in favor of the "Pray into your heart method."

As for Mary, I mostly agree with you except for one point, it's important to know that Jesus is a part of the line of David and that come from Mary. Bible makes it quite clear, he's her son and she's not a nobody, though like I said I agree she wasn't sinless by a mile.
 
Christ was never a sinner.

And you're right--no one is going to Hell for being imperfect.

They're going to Hell for being UNGODLY REBELS and for having NO SAVIOR.

You should be very careful when using such language:
Matthew 5:22 said:
but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
 
Ah baptist, honestly they're protestant the church I have the least experience with(the area I live in is largley pentacostal in sevarl different flavors), do you recognize the baptism of other churches do your require them or are you guys more in favor of the "Pray into your heart method."

Not to be nitpicky, but just to be informative: We also don't call ourselves "Protestants."

Modern-day so-called "Protestants" are those who follow the teachings of The Reformers", even when they blatantly contradict what's in the Scriptures.

As far as baptism goes, I'm not familiar with the "Pray into your heart method."

We just believe in the Biblical doctrine of "Believer's Baptism".

If one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, in his accomplished redemption as their Substitute, and trusts in Christ, and in Christ alone for all of their salvation, it is the command of the Lord Jesus Christ to be publically baptized.

They are to be fully immersed in water, which points to the death and burial of Christ. And to come out of the water, which points to the resurrection of Christ. And this is a public declaration their identification with Christ as their Substitute, as well as their identification with all of God's people, and that local church.

As for Mary, I mostly agree with you except for one point, it's important to know that Jesus is a part of the line of David and that come from Mary. Bible makes it quite clear, he's her son and she's not a nobody, though like I said I agree she wasn't sinless by a mile.

Yes, it is very significant that he is in the line of David, but through a woman, and not through an earthly father. Because he was the "Seed of the woman" set forth in Genesis, who would crush Satan's head, as well as "the offspring of David," spoken of by the Prophets.
 
You should be very careful when using such language:
Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 5:22, Young's Literal Translation

but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

It's not a personal attack, it's Biblical doctrine.

Nor is out of anger, but out of love for the truth.

I'll say it again:

People don't go to hell for being imperfect. They go to hell because they're ungodly rebels without a Savior.
 
I'm a Baptist. And I'm what you might call a "Sovereign Grace Baptist."

But that is NOT to be confused with "Sovereign Grace Ministries", and not all churches with "Sovereign Grace" in their name are "Sovereign Grace Baptists."

That designation implies that we believe in the absolute sovereignty of God in all things, especially in salvation by grace.

Examples of more well-known "Sovereign Grace Baptists" are Don Fortner, Henry Mahan, and Rolfe Barnard. But there are others in fellowship with us around the world.

We also have much in common with English Particular Baptists/Primitive Baptists such as Charles Spurgeon and JC Philpot.

We often quote the works of John Gill, William Gadsby, Robert Murray M'Cheyne, and some of the Puritans such as Jonathan Edwards, as well.

We do not like to be called "Calvinists," mainly because we are Baptists, and not Presbyterians or "Reformed Baptists." But we do believe in what is known as the "Doctrines of Grace" (5 Points, TULIP, etc.)

I cant point you to specific websites and sermon audio if you would like. Just let me know by PM or on my wall.




I've already explained that in another thread, with Scripture quotes and all.

He was formed in her womb miraculously BY the SPIRIT.

He was IMMACULATELY CONCEIVED, meaning without an earthly father, BORN from ABOVE, BORN with the DIVINE NATURE, without sin, or even the POSSIBILITY of sin.

It doesn't matter that Mary was the vessel. He did NOT inherit her sin.

I don't care about genetics, it just doesn't apply here.

Mary was a sinner, and Jesus Christ was NOT.

It's just that simple.

Jesus was a man. All men are sinners. He may have claimed to be part of god, and he most definitely was, but we are all part of god because, well...WE ARE GOD. The sooner we stop looking to an old book on how to live our lives and instead start looking within ourselves for answers, the better off we will be.

Start thinking for yourselves people! The more I learn about different religions and the beliefs they hold, the more I realize that it's nothing but a big sham created to control the masses.

Mary and Jesus were sinners because they were human, just like everyone else.

And for the record, the "immaculate conception" story is the most irrational thing I have ever heard. I can't believe people are brainwashed with this shit.
 
Not to be nitpicky, but just to be informative: We also don't call ourselves "Protestants."

Modern-day so-called "Protestants" are those who follow the teachings of The Reformers", even when they blatantly contradict what's in the Scriptures.

As far as baptism goes, I'm not familiar with the "Pray into your heart method."

We just believe in the Biblical doctrine of "Believer's Baptism".

If one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, in his accomplished redemption as their Substitute, and trusts in Christ, and in Christ alone for all of their salvation, it is the command of the Lord Jesus Christ to be publically baptized.

They are to be fully immersed in water, which points to the death and burial of Christ. And to come out of the water, which points to the resurrection of Christ. And this is a public declaration their identification with Christ as their Substitute, as well as their identification with all of God's people, and that local church.



Yes, it is very significant that he is in the line of David, but through a woman, and not through an earthly father. Because he was the "Seed of the woman" set forth in Genesis, who would crush Satan's head, as well as "the offspring of David," spoken of by the Prophets.

Many modern protestants come out of the great awakenings in the united states, who are reformers of the reformation movement in Europe that birthed Protestantism. Honestly I'd be happy if you just called yourself a Christian if were going to follow your logic sense we're going with sola scriptura, the only problem with that is that it makes conversation hard.

I guess the better question is do you believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit takes place at Baptism or at the recognition of Christ as Lord. The "Pray Jesus into your heart" is a popular public prayer of recognition of the divinity of Christ in some baptist churches that marks whether a person is saved or not(or in your terms knows Christ).

The other opinion is that at Baptism(along with confession of faith) is what marks whether a person knows Christ.

Also another note, how do you feel about infant baptism, I'm going to guess because your on board with full water immersion(and I agree to that) your not a fan.
 
New age collective unconscious typology, in short you want to sleep with your mother.

Well... that would be cool except for I asked Crazybeautiful and my mother happens to not be with us any more. But since you decided to put your words into it, what do you think it means beyond sleeping with your mother...?
 
Can you extrapolate a little on what you mean by this please?

Hm, okay, let's use an atom as an example. What are atoms made of? Three subatomic particles; protons, neutrons, and electrons, right?

So let's pretend here for a minute that human beings are the protons, the neutrons and the electrons. Now what do they make when combined? An atom.

Atom=GOD.

Did that make sense? :)
 
Hm, okay, let's use an atom as an example. What are atoms made of? Three subatomic particles; protons, neutrons, and electrons, right?

So let's pretend here for a minute that human beings are the protons, the neutrons and the electrons. Now what do they make when combined? An atom! Atom='s GOD.

Did that make sense? :)

Actually yes. Very much so. However, simplistic. Are you being simplistic because you think I wont understand or because thats all you have?

Sorry for the bluntness. I get to be direct when I am drunk.
 
Actually yes. Very much so. However, simplistic. Are you being simplistic because you think I wont understand or because thats all you have?

Sorry for the bluntness. I get to be direct when I am drunk.

No, I knew you would understand :). I find that keeping it simple is the best way to explain things sometimes.
 
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Well... that would be cool except for I asked Crazybeautiful and my mother happens to not be with us any more. But since you decided to put your words into it, what do you think it means beyond sleeping with your mother...?

well outside of the snark.....

The ascendance of humanity or the elevation of humanity to a deity or to semi deity status is a concept of many new age philosophies I'm not sure which one crazy beautiful ascribes to you, though I imagine she would say something akin to that we are all spiritual beings with a spark of divine in them(just guessing though) Or perhaps that all of us are on a spiritual journey to find ourselves and find our place in the universe. I referenced Jung because he had a huge influence on the early New Age movement and I referenced Freud because he was Jung's mentor and teacher, also I thought it was funny.
 
well outside of the snark.....

The ascendance of humanity or the elevation of humanity to a deity or to semi deity status is a concept of many new age philosophies I'm not sure which one crazy beautiful ascribes to you, though I imagine she would say something akin to that we are all spiritual beings with a spark of divine in them(just guessing though) Or perhaps that all of us are on a spiritual journey to find ourselves and find our place in the universe. I referenced Jung because he had a huge influence on the early New Age movement and I referenced Freud because he was Jung's mentor and teacher, also I thought it was funny.

So you dont think there is any validity in the idea she poised?
 
So you dont think there is any validity in the idea she poised?

I don't know his stance on this, but in general, I think my idea makes more sense than the "immaculate conception", or even the majority of the stories in the bible, for that matter.

Why does the thought of humans collectively being GOD seem so nonsensical to some? Oh, I forgot. Because believing that some invisible supreme being created the human race one sunny day for whatever reason and then decided to set up a laundry list of oppressive rules, that if broken would be met with horrible punishment, makes so much more sense. Right.

But maybe I'm wrong and they are right? Anything is possible.

What do you think, Eventhorizon?

P.s. I think he was saying that he thought his Freud reference was funny, which it was. :)

But maybe I'm wrong? (Shrugs)
 
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It's not a personal attack, it's Biblical doctrine.

Nor is out of anger, but out of love for the truth.

I'll say it again:

People don't go to hell for being imperfect. They go to hell because they're ungodly rebels without a Savior.

If your god doesn't love me, then yes I am a rebel. I cannot abide your kind of god and that is just how it is. I'd rather throw away everything for eternity than abide that for even one second, because I am not a coward.

Whose faith is stronger?

If I'm already facing the worst then I simply remain indomitable. What's your god going to do about it? Send me to hell with more emphasis?

Your god can judge me, send me to hell, throw temper tantrums, torture me for eternity, kill all of my family, or whatever he wants to do but if such a god cannot tame my heart then he is still a weak god.
 
If your god doesn't love me, then yes I am a rebel. I cannot abide your kind of god and that is just how it is. I'd rather throw away everything for eternity than abide that for even one second, because I am not a coward.

Whose faith is stronger?

If I'm already facing the worst then I simply remain indomitable. What's your god going to do about it? Send me to hell with more emphasis?

Your god can judge me, send me to hell, throw temper tantrums, torture me for eternity, kill all of my family, or whatever he wants to do but if such a god cannot tame my heart then he is still a weak god.

I've said it to you before, and I'll say it again:

God's will is stronger than your will, and if he wants to save you, he'll save you. You can't stop him. (Nor will you want to, if he does.)

Contrary to what people like Barnabas say, God MUST overpower your will to save you.

Otherwise, NO sinner would be saved.
 
I've said it to you before, and I'll say it again:

God's will is stronger than your will, and if he wants to save you, he'll save you. You can't stop him. (Nor will you want to, if he does.)

Contrary to what people like Barnabas say, God MUST overpower your will to save you.

Otherwise, NO sinner would be saved.

I knew you'd say that. I just wanted to see you do it. Also so everyone else could see it, too. Mission accomplished.

No point in arguing with you when I can make you defeat yourself by just letting you be you for everyone to see.
 
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