Discerning The Spirits

[Skarekrow]

Good post mate. I'm reminded of something I heard or read a while back. In fact, I barely remember it at all, but the point is some fella was having a mystical experience and felt everything as one. He had to go pee-pee and decided to do it where he stood because if everything is one, then everything is the bathroom.

This is part of the theory that folks like Aldous Huxley preposed, that the brain is a reducing valve, we do not see/feel/hear/taste/etc. all that is actually there. We have a perception that is limited to our body and brain.
When you take mushrooms for example, you can get this feeling of interconnectedness which is a wonderful feeling for a lonely human to feel, but it wouldn’t be something that a person could function on normally, there is too much information coming at you that doesn’t get filtered by our brain (if you adhere to that theory)...that’s where western society differs from many others - someone who begins to hear voices and sees visions and such in many cultures and religions is taken and usually trained by the last “witch doctor” or “oracle” etc. to control how they interact with these things.
Could they just be schizophrenic and there be nothing mystical? Yes.
Could mushrooms or other such things only be in the mind of the individual and not actually exist? Absolutely.
Much has to do with personal subjective experience in how we interpret and react to the information our bodies register.
Just because everyone else can’t see/feel it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there imho.
There are many ancient “Christian” murals and paintings showing the “tree of life - which is also the tree of knowledge” as a “magic mushroom”.
The Gnostics in particular did not believe that God of Abraham was a good and righteous God, he was considered an “entity” that was actually quite violent and the snake in contrast was the one trying to help Adam and Eve.
Elohim is actually a greek plural word - meaning gods and goddesses.
Elohim is said to have created the universe and mankind...but they were not all kind and some did not want us to have the same knowledge as they themselves do.
That they shouldn’t eat from the tree - “Lest they become Gods like us” - as some translations say.
I will not ramble...you can read about it here - https://gnosticteachings.org/courses/kabbalah-of-genesis/702-the-garden-of-eden-1.html
Anyhow, I don’t discount the teachings of the Bible or any “Holy” book that is out there, they all have wisdom to glean, again imho.
That feeling of “oneness” that one can get from meditation, psychedelics, trance, dance, etc. can be partially explained by neuroscience.
In the mushroom experience fMRI machines show how it calms the parts of the brain that are overactive in those with depression/anxiety/PTSD,etc. and causes the brain to function as more of a whole system instead of sending competing signals back and forth from area to area.

My point is that it would be totally different and not necessarily functional if we were always in such a state.
Your friend was technically right, though his common sense went flying out the window it sounds.
On a quantum level we are not separate from anything...and if you aren’t a strict materialist, it is our minds that help to create the reality we experience.
Which goes hand in hand with the concept of faith and will.

@just me and I have different core beliefs but I don’t think they are really that far apart when it comes down to what is good/healthy and what is not.
Spirits or no spirits.

My favorite spirit is whiskey just fyi.

 

[sprinkles]

What kind of toilets did they have in Eden?

 

[Skarekrow]

What kind of toilets did they have in Eden?

Why do we call the toilet “the throne”?
I’m sure it was filled with holy water.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

My point is that it would be totally different and not necessarily functional if we were always in such a state.
Your friend was technically right, though his common sense went flying out the window it sounds.

Yeah, that was my point, in relation to discernment. That fella's experience made him believe he could pee anywhere, instead of emphasizing decency, and respect for other people and their property.

 

[just me]

I was asked from far away this afternoon if I needed prayer. My first thoughts are praying that others will have a respectable and proper night, and that everyone be treated properly. If they make a mess to leave, let them clean it up by morning. Spiritually, this could mean if they make a mess of their mind, that it be righted by sunrise. If they make a person angry, right it before the sun rises. Spiritually to the world, that only their footsteps be left in the sand. We must protect our world and the different environments around us. We must give proper thanks, and show how thankful we should be. The sunrise brings the new day to me, and each day should have the opportunity to start afresh.

Guess that will be my prayer for tonight. It would be great if a few crumbs fall from The Master's Table to provide for my own. Maybe I will be asked to sit at the table one day; maybe not. Love that which should be loved, do that which should be done, and pray for me.

My thoughts and prayers were not chemically or alcohol-induced. Hard for me to believe people still experiment with shrooms, but speak on if it feels like part of the conversation to you.

copied"
There are many more names for the toilet, such as: hopper, Johnny, janey, loo, potty, or privy.

This particular euphemism, throne, is said to have come from none other than King Louis XIV, who often saw to royal business from his toilet, deeming it an alternative to his usual throne."

 

[Skarekrow]

My thoughts and prayers were not chemically or alcohol-induced.
Hard for me to believe people still experiment with shrooms, but speak on if it feels like part of the conversation to you.

I never mentioned alcohol.
I think alcohol blocks the connection to the greater consciousness. (my opinion)
It’s hard for me to believe that there is still the outdated and illogical stigmas and taboos about such things that can be so beneficial to many people.
(also my opinion, but at least it’s an educated one)

Two terminal cancer patients who took part in a large study at John’s Hopkin’s University...the guy is himself a retired Psychiatrist.

"The Substance" - Interview with Johns Hopkins Psilocybin Cancer Project Participants 1 & 2​

Not saying it is a cure-all or that it will work for everyone...and one should take such things seriously before taking anything like mushrooms.
There is a smart way to do it and a wrong way.
There are medical considerations and emotional considerations that must be taken very seriously.
It takes time IMO to prepare oneself for such a thing.


(I’ll post a longer video on my own thread here - http://www.infjs.com/threads/merkabah.27025/page-244#post-913942)​

 

[Skarekrow]

While this is common in mushrooms, sometimes found in cow manure, it is not part of the human body.

Did the drug actually help terminal cancer patients, or just take them away from reality awhile? This opens a very large can of worms.

My definition of something "spiritual" and someone else's definition of "spiritual" are obviously apt to be very different.

I said whiskey as a joke...but I don’t drink it.
I ask that you only watch those two videos and keep an open mind.
In the longer video I posted a link to...it goes into the history of why and how it was banned from even being researched for decades along with other such drugs they are now finding help people with serious problems...which is what they found before they were banned.
Take for instance the drug Ketamine.
Ketamine is used in anesthesia but is sold on the street as “Special K”.
They have found that it has huge responses from people suffering from chronic depression/anxiety.
There are even clinics you can go to now (not cheap) that offer a package of 3 sessions.
Many have claimed that it completely alleviates their symptoms for extended periods of time 6mo to a year, but some have claimed being permanently cured.
Or the popular drug Ecstasy, MDMA.
Has gotten amazing results for those suffering from PTSD, particularly our Vets.
(I can provide you with links to studies if you like)
They have even made it into a nasal spray and have run studies on married adults who had fallen out of love with one another or fought a lot.
Every time they had a negative thought or got angry at the other, they were instructed to take the squirt of the nasal spray (very small, controlled dose),
interestingly, ALL of the participants fell back into love again and none of them ended up getting divorced...keep in mind this is paired with counseling and highly monitored.
If you watch the longer video then you would see that the mystical experience from certain substances has been scrutinized and compared with religious experiences and deemed to be just as significant in almost every aspect.
http://hustonsmith.net

So come on now...lets all see eye to eye here.
I am not talking about misusing these drugs...I am talking about breaking stigmas that prevent people from getting the medication that has great potential to help when taken correctly.

 

[Skarekrow]

I guess we all have our own definitions and meanings of words.

As for the word “spiritual”, I think you would like to think my definition is different than yours, but it isn’t.
Why must you always try to put this wall up around yourself...it’s seriously getting old.
No one here is better or more “spiritual” than the other...it isn’t a contest.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

I said whiskey as a joke...but I don’t drink it.
I ask that you only watch those two videos and keep an open mind.
In the longer video I posted a link to...it goes into the history of why and how it was banned from even being researched for decades along with other such drugs they are now finding help people with serious problems...which is what they found before they were banned.
Take for instance the drug Ketamine.
Ketamine is used in anesthesia but is sold on the street as “Special K”.
They have found that it has huge responses from people suffering from chronic depression/anxiety.
There are even clinics you can go to now (not cheap) that offer a package of 3 sessions.
Many have claimed that it completely alleviates their symptoms for extended periods of time 6mo to a year, but some have claimed being permanently cured.
Or the popular drug Ecstasy, MDMA.
Has gotten amazing results for those suffering from PTSD, particularly our Vets.
(I can provide you with links to studies if you like)
They have even made it into a nasal spray and have run studies on married adults who had fallen out of love with one another or fought a lot.
Every time they had a negative thought or got angry at the other, they were instructed to take the squirt of the nasal spray (very small, controlled dose),
interestingly, ALL of the participants fell back into love again and none of them ended up getting divorced...keep in mind this is paired with counseling and highly monitored.
If you watch the longer video then you would see that the mystical experience from certain substances has been scrutinized and compared with religious experiences and deemed to be just as significant in almost every aspect.
http://hustonsmith.net

So come on now...lets all see eye to eye here.
I am not talking about misusing these drugs...I am talking about breaking stigmas that prevent people from getting the medication that has great potential to help when taken correctly.

I can attest to various psychedelics, as I've done several in my younger days of seeking. It wasn't until years after I stopped ingesting things that I was blessed with a truly intimate relationship with God. That said, the mystical experiences I had on LSD, psilocybin, MDMA, or mescaline were not profoundly life changing at the time, though they did open my eyes to a reality below/beyond the surface of sense perception. The plants and chemicals either brought to my consciousness long buried pains and fears that I could let go of at the time or dissolved all fears all together allowing for a deep feeling of connection with everything. MDMA in particular allowed for intensely deep conversations with my girlfriend about topics we would normally be too afraid to bring up without that kind of help. The healing and bonding that took place on the substance carried over to "normal" life.

It wasn't all "mystical" or about self discovery as I did have a tendency to misuse the substances, but I did have some very good experiences that aided me later in life as I was still searching for my way back home, so to speak. I'm all for using these plants and chemicals in a controlled setting with a therapist because they help people access troubling parts of themselves that hinder healing and growth and open people to a world of possibilities. Anything that is brought up while on the substance is later worked through while not on it to facilitate genuine healing growth.

 

[Skarekrow]

Having fun, 'crow? I read the entire article on those tests and they have nothing to do with the topic. Drug-induced does not mean spiritual. I was quoting scriptures, and you want to quote Timothy Leary.

Wait! Maybe drugs help people feel spiritual that are not spiritual without them. Some of us are spiritual because of our lives and bringing up; others, turned their back to it because they thought it was from the establishment.

I was prayed for last night by God only knows, and awakened with less pain that I've awakened with in years. I didn't even ask for that.

I never said anything of the sort concerning what your meme is supposed to represent.
And not to speak bad of the dead, but Robin Williams did his fair share of drugs and booze up until the day he died from his terrible brain disorder.

You are obviously not receptive to new information that is contrary to your belief-set.
I will leave your vaguely OP’d thread as you cannot seem to have a discussion with someone without being insulting and arrogant.
Again...you seem to think it’s a contest of who is the most spiritual or righteous.


I have included you in my prayers for some time just fyi just me.
Have a good day Sir.

 

[Skarekrow]

I can attest to various psychedelics, as I've done several in my younger days of seeking. It wasn't until years after I stopped ingesting things that I was blessed with a truly intimate relationship with God. That said, the mystical experiences I had on LSD, psilocybin, MDMA, or mescaline were not profoundly life changing at the time, though they did open my eyes to a reality below/beyond the surface of sense perception. The plants and chemicals either brought to my consciousness long buried pains and fears that I could let go of at the time or dissolved all fears all together allowing for a deep feeling of connection with everything. MDMA in particular allowed for intensely deep conversations with my girlfriend about topics we would normally be too afraid to bring up without that kind of help. The healing and bonding that took place on the substance carried over to "normal" life.

It wasn't all "mystical" or about self discovery as I did have a tendency to misuse the substances, but I did have some very good experiences that aided me later in life as I was still searching for my way back home, so to speak. I'm all for using these plants and chemicals in a controlled setting with a therapist because they help people access troubling parts of themselves that hinder healing and growth and open people to a world of possibilities. Anything that is brought up while on the substance is later worked through while not on it to facilitate genuine healing growth.

That has also been my experience...sometimes it is profound and sometimes it is not...I never laid claim as some folks here think that is a cure-all...just that it’s time to reassess these substances for very specific and controlled settings such as you suggested.
There are medical considerations...it wouldn’t be good to combine with SSRIs for example as it raises your possibility for serotonin-syndrome.
There is a safe and correct way to do it and a very wrong and unsafe way.

Let’s take this conversation to my thread in Merkabah...I do believe I have worn out my welcome, but I would like to discuss it more in depth with you.
Take care!

 

[just me]

Good riddance, Skarecrow. That quote from Robin Williams is dead on, no matter what he did, tried, fail;ed at, or was successful with.

"Let's try some drugs tonight so we can have a religious experience." Think what Robin Williams meant is obvious: drugs are not necessary to enjoy your life. I think this woman would be offended if you said you needed drugs for the evening with her. Looking into her eyes would be a much better way to start the evening. Leave the drugs out of it.

 

[Skarekrow]

Good riddance, Skarecrow. That quote from Robin Williams is dead on, no matter what he did, tried, fail;ed at, or was successful with.

"Let's try some drugs tonight so we can have a religious experience." Think what Robin Williams meant is obvious: drugs are not necessary to enjoy your life. I think this woman would be offended if you said you needed drugs for the evening woth her. Looking into her eyes would be a much better way to start the evening. Leave the drugs out of it.

You are failing at trying to put words in my mouth I never said....and you are failing to insult me....you are also failing to make me sound like I have inferred anything about taking drugs recreationally.
(all people have to do is read what I wrote)

You are quite successful at looking more arrogant by your rude behavior.
(also no thank you on the woman in the picture, I have someone whom I love in totality and don’t need to look up pretty women online to satiate myself)

 

[just me]

Galations 5.........
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

This is a great way to help in discerning the spirits.

 

[Skarekrow]

Galations 5.........
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

This is a great way to help in discerning the spirits.

I don’t disagree with any of that.
You have assumed so much.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

 

[Skarekrow]

You are no longer bothering me. You have climbed up high enough to be ignored.

Typical.
Good day.

 

[just me]

Galations 5.........
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

This is a great way to help in discerning the spirits.

Maybe we can get back on topic.

 

[Sandie33]

Interestingly, a common principle espoused in Catholic mystical theology and spirituality is that encounters with evil spirits often begin as pleasant, but end as unpleasant and leave one feeling disturbed. Whereas encounters with good spirits (angels, the souls of the saints, God) often begin as unpleasant and fearsome on one level, but in the end leave one with a sense of deep interior peace, dispelling any negativeness.

Even then, there is a spiritual teaching that holds that one ought to spurn anything that one has the slightest doubts about as having divine origin; and even then, to consult with others before acting on a 'received message' or accepting it as 'good' or 'true', as a means of 'testing the spirits'. Unless, as Teresa of Avila puts it, the message is so trivial and in conformity with truth (i.e. One receives an intuitive prompt to go over and offer a friendly word to someone struggling) - then whether from a good spirit, or a bad spirit, one needn't spend their time trying to figure it out, but should just act on it as something which rationally through faith makes good sense anyway. I've heard of someone trying to discern whether God wanted them to use salt or pepper. This is ridiculous. In my view, God has given us a brain, and we're to use it to its utmost while letting reason be guided and transcended by faith, especially in matters which exceed comprehensibility.

Additionally there is the notion that private revelations (those private spiritual experiences which are necessary and important) ought to be held lightly, or at least 'put in their proper place', and ought never be something one places their faith in in and of itself, and should, in the Christian sense, be examined in the light of Public Revelation - i.e. those things contained in Scripture - which one alone should place their faith in as infallible truth.

Yet again - this is a particular Christian view. So not all will agree by any means

God has given us a brain, and we're to use it to its utmost while letting reason be guided and transcended by faith, especially in matters which exceed comprehensibility.

Yep...common sense prevails in most anything

 

[just me]

In spiritual matters regarding life and the soul, common sense does not always prevail. The salt and pepper use could have been like "apple or grape jelly", which is a bit off subject.

Common sense would have had me stay in the boat when called upon the waters. We have been given multiple guidelines to follow.