Discussing the Quantum Brain (Orch OR) - Penrose and Hameroff

TomasM

Community Member
MBTI
INFJ
1727386131922.webpThis thread is dedicated to the exploration and discussion of how the brain / mind function with respect to scientific discovery as it relates to Orch OR and complimenting science. The authors of this theory have suggested a tie to consciousness and as such it can create subjective ideas. The discussion could extend beyond the brain if the science extends to other areas of the body or the body as a whole. Opinions are welcome as long as it maintains a relationship with the science.

Wikipedia: Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch OR), Roger Penrose, Stuart Hameroff
 
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Orchestrated Objective Reduction​

1727395864726.webpOrchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch OR) is a theoretical framework proposing that consciousness originates at the quantum level within neurons, specifically in microtubules, rather than being a product of neural connections. This theory, developed by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff, attempts to bridge the gap between physics, neuroscience, and psychology.

Key Components:
  1. Microtubules: Cylindrical protein lattices in the cell cytoskeleton within brain neurons, where quantum superposition and computation occur.
  2. Quantum Superposition: Microtubules exist in a superposition of states, allowing for multiple possibilities to coexist.
  3. Orchestrated Quantum Computation: Microtubules’ quantum states are correlated and computed collectively, influencing neuronal activity and behavior.
  4. Objective Reduction (OR): A physical, objective phenomenon, akin to gravity, that collapses the quantum superposition, terminating the computation and producing a conscious moment.
  5. Penrose’s Quantum Gravity Threshold: Instability in Planck-scale separations in spacetime geometry triggers OR, influencing the collapse of the wavefunction.
Implications:
  1. Consciousness as a Quantum Process: Orch OR posits that consciousness arises from orchestrated quantum computations in microtubules, rather than being an emergent property of neural activity.
  2. Quantum Computing in the Brain: Microtubules’ quantum capabilities enable the brain to process information in a fundamentally different way than classical computers.
  3. Objective Reduction and Collapse: The OR process, driven by gravity, ensures that conscious experience is a real, physical phenomenon, rather than an illusion or ghostly projection.
 
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January 23, 2024

Brain as a Quantum System: Theory Gets New Traction

Summary:

1. Do Quantum Phenomena Create Conscious Experience?
2. Quantum Processing in Bird Brains - bird’s internal compass includes radicals with an “odd, unpaired electron”
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3. Other Research
a) Trinity College in Dublin did experiments that suggest our brains do quantum computation
b) Brody, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Surrey, hopes that quantum processes can shed light on human behavior
c) Use of anesthetics on brain organoids (lumps of brain tissue grown in a medium) are making it easier to test the theory.

Picture below: brain organoids (lumps of brain tissue grown in a medium)
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Penrose and Hameroff have both referenced the Schrodinger's cat, the collapse of the wave function, and superpositions. I'm adding a video to help explain these ideas to help get your brain juices going. I vetted the videos on YT and the one I chose is both educational and entertaining. He also explains how this concept might expand to people every day. Watching this could make you start thinking about other options that might exists outside of what was discussed.

 
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New Study Demonstrates a Connection Between Microtubles and Consciousness

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New research led by Wellesley College professor Mike Wiest and his undergraduate team provides experimental support for the quantum theory of consciousness, focusing on how anesthesia interacts with the brain. The study found that rats given a microtubule-binding drug took significantly longer to lose consciousness under anesthesia, suggesting that anesthetics act on microtubules to induce unconsciousness. Wiest argues that these findings support a quantum rather than classical model of consciousness, with far-reaching implications for understanding not only anesthesia but also conditions like coma, mood disorders, and neurodegenerative diseases. This research, published in eNeuro, could reshape our conception of consciousness and its relation to the universe.

eNeuro Publication
Publication Date: 15 August 2024
 
Microtubules Relation to Orch OR

1727727149849.webpMost all of the research and focus associated with Orch OR (Orchestrated Objective Reduction) is related to microtubules within neuron cells [in the brain]; however these tiny structures have many functions throughout the body. The main functions of microtubules in the human body are listed below with signal transmission [and the corresponding quantum consciousness effects] being the primary focus of Orch OR.

Image Left: Microtubule in a neuron dendrite
Image Below: Neuron cell structure
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MICROTUBULE FUNCTIONS

1. Signal Transmission: Microtubules are involved in signal transduction processes within cells, playing a role in how cells respond to external stimuli.
2. Structural Support: Microtubules provide structural integrity to cells, helping maintain cell shape and resist compression. They act as a scaffold that organizes the cell’s internal structure.
3. Intracellular Transport: Microtubules serve as tracks for the movement of organelles, vesicles, and other cargo within the cell. Motor proteins such as kinesins and dyneins move along microtubules to transport materials throughout the cytoplasm.
4. Cell Division: During mitosis and meiosis, microtubules form the mitotic spindle, which is essential for the separation of chromosomes into daughter cells. The spindle fibers attach to the chromosomes and pull them apart to opposite poles of the cell.
5. Cell Motility: Microtubules are key components of cilia and flagella, structures that allow cell movement. In cells like sperm (which use flagella for propulsion) or cells lining the respiratory tract (which use cilia to move mucus), microtubules enable the beating or waving of these structures.
6. Maintenance of Organelle Position: Microtubules help maintain the positioning of organelles like the endoplasmic reticulum and Golgi apparatus within the cell by anchoring them to specific locations.

Demonstration of Microtubules with respect to Neurons

Signal Transmission - I looked for a good video on signal transmission and though this one isn't fully related to electric transmission and quantum effects, it does discuss it and the quantum effects related to Orch OR.

Transport - Fascinating how these mechanical proteins move along the external surface of the neuron microtubules.
 
ELECTRONIC ENERGY MIGRATION IN MICROTUBULES

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The 2023 research on Electronic Energy Migration in Microtubules explores the potential for electronic energy transfer along microtubules, key components of the cytoskeleton in eukaryotic cells. Microtubules are hollow cylinders composed of tubulin proteins, and their structural and dynamic properties play a crucial role in cellular functions like division, intracellular transport, and signaling. This study investigates whether microtubules can also support the migration of electronic energy, a process that might influence cellular processes on a quantum level.

The researchers employed theoretical and computational models to analyze how electronic energy could propagate through the microtubule network. The study draws on the idea that microtubules could act as quantum channels, facilitating energy transfer in a manner akin to molecular wires. The findings suggest that microtubules may have unique electronic properties that could affect biological functions like signal transduction. The research points to a potential intersection between quantum biology and cellular dynamics, raising intriguing questions about the role of quantum phenomena in biological systems.

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Synopsis:
In a microtubule, electronic energy can migrate over distances that conventional Förster theory cannot sufficiently explain. Anesthetics etomidate and isoflurane decrease energy migration.

Note: Keep in mind that this is a study and not an experiment. They are proposing, through the analysis of several scientific understandings and computer models, that microtubules could be a method for electronic energy transfer. The study references 70 publications.

ACS Publication
Publication date: 12 January 2023
 
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Orch OR Relation To Theories of Consciousness In The Universe

1727812960786.webp"Three general possibilities regarding the origin and place of consciousness in the universe have been commonly expressed...

1. Science, with consciousness as an essential ingredient of physical laws not yet fully understood
2. Science/Materialism, with consciousness having no distinctive role
3. Dualism/Spirituality, with consciousness (etc.) being outside science"

Of these origins Orch OR focuses on the first possibility where consciousness is an essential ingredient of physical laws. Consciousness arises from discrete physical events that have always existed in the universe as non-cognitive, proto-conscious phenomena governed by precise but not yet fully understood physical laws. Biology evolved a system to coordinate these events with neural activity, leading to cognitive and conscious experiences, which in turn influence behavior. These events are proposed as quantum state reductions, or quantum "self-measurements." While this idea may not fit current scientific theories, it should eventually be explainable. This view, rooted in A.N. Whitehead's philosophy, is scientifically developed in the Penrose-Hameroff theory of orchestrated objective reduction (Orch OR), where consciousness emerges from quantum computations in brain microtubules, suggesting it is an intrinsic aspect of the universe.

Source
 
"Organizing and Disorganizing Resonances of Microtubules..
Calculated by a.. "Toroidal" Quantum Equation of Coherence"

December 2022

1727817996746.webpMicrotubules and proteins exhibit spatial coherence, a typical arrangement of atoms essential for functions like growth, maintenance, and cell death. They form a self-organizing structure called a Fröhlich-Bose-Einstein state, described by a toroidal quantum equation of coherence. This state features discrete frequency patterns governed by quantum wave equations of coherence (entanglement) and decoherence (disentanglement). The model aligns with previous theories and demonstrates scale-invariant energy distributions. A meta-analysis identifies around 50 organizing and 5 disorganizing microtubule frequencies matching the proposed quantum equations, suggesting a quantum code that governs biological order. This supports theories by Tuszynski, Hameroff, and others on quantum biology in cellular systems.

Yes, they are saying THz (Tera Hertz frequencies). That 1 Trillion Hertz.
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Opinion: I have been considering the idea of the toroid design as a universal theory for everything for quite some time. This is the first time I've seen it potentially referenced in relation to microtubules and a correlation to consciousness. We can see this toroid shape with respect to energy flow at the planetary, star, and galaxy structures. It now appears to be working at the cellular level.

Though we don't currently see it introduced at the atomic scale, there are hypothetical theories where a subatomic black hole could exist at the center of an atom - yet it would have to be extremely small to the point where scientific observation would unlikely be able to observe it. I suggest this primarily because the current life of an atom is calculated to be 10^32 years and the energy required to make that happen has to come from somewhere. I believe it comes from a higher energy state that wiggles it's way through a higher dimension to ours through these perforations (black holes).

Source
 
Consciousness, Cognition and the Neuronal Cytoskeleton
A New Paradigm Needed in Neuroscience


1728704995986.webpMainstream neuroscience and philosophy typically describe the brain as a computational network of neurons, following the Hodgkin-Huxley model of “integrate-and-fire” activities. However, this approach inadequately explains consciousness, cognition, and intelligent behavior in simpler organisms that lack neurons but use their cytoskeleton to sense and act. The brain-as-computer model, which reduces brain function to synaptic activity and membrane potentials, fails to capture the deeper complexities of life and consciousness, which may arise from quantum coherence, as suggested by Hameroff, Penrose, and Schrödinger.

A new paradigm is proposed, centering on quantum and classical information processing in microtubules within neurons, particularly in cortical Layer V pyramidal neurons. These neurons are part of a large-scale 2D grid across the cortex, integrating sensory input and generating motor control. Their mixed polarity microtubules facilitate quantum interference, and their deviation from standard computational models could signal a deeper role in consciousness. The Orch OR theory posits that these quantum processes regulate neuron firing, linking consciousness to behavior in a non-computable way.1728705578362.webp

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The theory also suggests that consciousness and life originate from quantum dipole oscillations within proteins, forming a scale-invariant hierarchy of quantum coherence that spans from molecular vibrations to larger cognitive processes. This paradigm shift has significant medical implications, particularly in treating conditions like Alzheimer's, traumatic brain injury, and depression, which involve cytoskeletal dysfunctions. Future therapies might target the cytoskeleton directly, using technologies like low-intensity transcranial ultrasound to modulate microtubule activity.

Ultimately, this new model positions the brain not as a computational device but as a quantum-holographic system, capable of orchestrating consciousness and behavior through quantum processes within the neuronal cytoskeleton.

Source
15 June 2022
 
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It cuts two ways: microtubule loss during Alzheimer disease
27 September 2013

In this article, published in The EMBO journal, it is demonstrated how the breakdown of a specific protein result in the disassembly of microtubules and results in the the disfunction of cognitive ability. At the same time there is another protein which builds-up in the neuron and impedes the functioning of the microtubules network. This further demonstrates the link between consciousness and microtubules suggested by the ORCH OR theory.

1728776310993.webpMicrotubule loss from axons and dendrites is a key contributor to nervous system degeneration during Alzheimer disease. Previous evidence suggested a simple pathway by which tau dissociation from microtubules in the axon allows excess severing of microtubules by katanin. Now, new evidence has emerged for a more complex pathway by which abnormal tau invasion into dendrites, triggered by Aβ oligomers, results in excess severing of microtubules by spastin.

Source
 
The century-old picture of a nerve spike is wrong: filaments fire, before membrane
10 May 2022

Highlight: The directionality of the neuronal signal is being determined within the neuron by means of the microtubules rather than on the outside of the neuron (external membrane). This is significant in that the information used to chose the direction is vast given that there are 86 Billion neurons in the brain (some having multiple direction), and each neuron contains tens of thousands to hundreds of thousand of microtubules. All of these components must be coordinated and that is one of the reasons the ORCH in ORCH OR stands for orchestrated (like a symphony per Hameroff).

The article challenges the traditional understanding of nerve signaling, which has long focused on the membrane potential (the electrical spike) as the primary mechanism of action potentials. Instead, the authors propose that internal cytoskeletal filaments, specifically microtubules, play a critical role in initiating and propagating nerve signals. Their research suggests that these filaments "fire" before the membrane spike, indicating that the process of nerve signaling begins at the intracellular level rather than being solely a membrane phenomenon. This paradigm shift opens new perspectives on how neurons communicate and function, with potential implications for neuroscience and neurobiology.

The publication proposes a paradigm shift in understanding nerve signaling, suggesting that internal cytoskeletal filaments, specifically microtubules, initiate firing before the well-known membrane [of the neurons] potential spike. This challenges the century-old model that emphasizes the membrane's role in neuronal communication.

EXPERIMENT INFORMATION

1. Summary of Key Experiments and Findings that Support the Firing of Filaments Before Membrane Spikes

The key experiments that challenge the traditional view of membrane-dominated action potentials focus on intracellular dynamics, specifically cytoskeletal components like microtubules. Researchers conducted experiments using advanced imaging techniques and nanotechnologies to observe the activity within neurons at a much finer resolution than traditional methods allow. These experiments revealed that microtubules exhibit electrical activity before the membrane potential spike occurs. This finding suggests that the signaling begins within the neuron itself, possibly through the movement of ions or electrical charges along these filaments, preceding the classic depolarization of the membrane. These experiments provide direct evidence that intracellular filaments, rather than just the membrane, may initiate nerve signals.

2. Description of How These Internal Filaments Are Observed to Conduct or Influence Electrical Activity

Microtubules, which are part of the neuron’s cytoskeleton, have been shown to influence or directly conduct electrical activity, a concept that contrasts with traditional views of nerve signaling. These filaments are thought to behave as nano-conductors, capable of transmitting electrical signals through the movement of charged particles along their length. Experiments have demonstrated that microtubules can sustain and propagate electrical pulses independently of membrane activity. This suggests that they may act as a secondary system of information transmission within neurons, either complementing or preceding the membrane spike. The precise mechanism remains under study, but observations point to a role in amplifying or modulating the nerve signal before it reaches the membrane.

3. Comparison Between Traditional Electrophysiological Recordings and New Observations of Filament Behavior

Traditional electrophysiological recordings, such as those measuring membrane potential changes with electrodes, have long focused on tracking the electrical spikes that occur across the neuronal membrane during action potentials. These methods have been instrumental in developing our understanding of nerve signaling but are limited to observing surface-level changes in membrane voltage. In contrast, the new observations of filament behavior use advanced technologies, such as high-resolution microscopy and nanoscale sensors, to detect electrical activity within the neuron itself, specifically along microtubules. Unlike the clear, rapid membrane depolarizations recorded in traditional methods, these filament activities show subtler, earlier electrical pulses. This difference suggests that electrical signaling may begin in the neuron’s interior, adding a new dimension to our understanding of how neurons process and transmit information.

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Figure 2. (a) Dielectric resonance microscope: biomaterials are kept on a metal or conducting plate. The tip scans through the surface, sending electromagnetic signals of various frequencies to the material and receiving the returned signal post-metal sheet reflection. (b) Coaxial probe and patch clamps are used together while measuring the filamentary firing and membrane firing. (c) The design of a coaxial probe.
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My question: If the electric flow is being determined within the neuron rather than between neurons, where does the information come from that determines this flow. Since the ORCH OR theory suggests that consciousness is derived from the microtubules at the quantum level, and this experiment is supportive of that idea, then should we be considering that our consciousness is being derived from trillions of connections in the quantum realm that are coordinated and synchronized.

Opinion: I suspect that the connection to the quantum is a connection to a higher dimension and energy state that is operating backwards in time. That the end result has been determined and as such the circuits within the brain can be turned on with each neuron to complete the circuits and pull the electrical signal in a specific conscious direction. This is not to suggest that we are not choosing the direction, only that it is not our physical bodies determining our choices. I say this because attempting to build the circuit in a linear fashion (like the traditional model) would not be occurring quickly enough and with the correct directional choice (with multiple directions of a neuron and trillions of probable circuit outcomes) if each was attempting to do it in a forward time sequence. I also suspect that the the reason a dielectric resonance microscope is being used is because the dielectric is what is coming from the higher quantum dimension.

Source
 
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Consciousness is Not a Computation (Roger Penrose)​

Apr 4, 2020

I wanted to give some context to Roger Penrose's participation in the ORCH OR development. This interview was 4 years ago, and there has been a good bit of experimentation and study since that time, but I felt that the interview was important given his participation in the initiative and his age (93 years old today; Birthday: August 8, 1931).

In an interview with Lex Fridman, physicist Roger Penrose discussed his belief that consciousness cannot be explained by computers or simple physical processes. He introduced his Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch OR) theory, which suggests that consciousness comes from quantum processes in the brain, specifically in structures called microtubules. These tiny tubes, found in brain cells, may preserve quantum states, enabling consciousness in a way that's different from traditional ideas about brain activity.
Penrose explained that conventional quantum mechanics is incomplete, and new ideas are needed to explain how quantum states collapse into definite choices. He sees this process as key to understanding consciousness, calling it proto-consciousness, a fundamental building block of awareness.

The discussion highlighted the challenges of proving these ideas. Experiments are underway to test the role of microtubules and how anesthetics affect consciousness, but research is still in its early stages. Penrose emphasized that understanding intelligence, awareness, and consciousness is far from complete and remains one of science’s greatest mysteries.

Here is an outline for the interview:

1. Introduction to Consciousness and Computation
(a) Penrose’s assertion: Consciousness is not computable and cannot be fully described by physical processes reducible to computation.
(b) Mention of the Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch OR) model as a framework for understanding consciousness.


2. Genesis of Penrose’s Ideas
(a) Inspiration from conversations between AI pioneers (Edward Fredkin and Marvin Minsky) that envisioned computers surpassing human intellectual capacities.
(b) Motivated to write *The Emperor's New Mind* in response to claims about AI's potential.
(c) Exploration of neurophysiology and quantum coherence in the brain during the writing process.


3. Discovery of Microtubules
(a) Introduction to microtubules through Stuart Hameroff, who suggested their relevance to consciousness.
(b) Microtubules' role in maintaining quantum coherence and their unique symmetrical structure as potential sites for quantum processes in the brain.


4. Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch OR)
(a) Core premise: Consciousness arises from quantum state reduction processes in microtubules.
(b) Distinction from computational models of consciousness, which focus on synaptic activity.
- The role of symmetry in preserving quantum states within microtubules.


5. Challenges to Quantum Mechanics
(a) Critique of conventional quantum mechanics for being incomplete.
(b) Discussion of the Schrödinger equation and the paradox of superposition (e.g., Schrödinger’s cat).
(c) Advocacy for a modified understanding of quantum mechanics that incorporates gravitational effects.
6. Proto-Consciousness and Non-Computability
(a) Penrose’s view:
- Consciousness is not a computational result but emerges from fundamental quantum state reductions.
- Proto-consciousness as a building block of conscious experiences.
(b) Differences from interpretations that attribute state reduction to observation by conscious entities.


7. Experimental Evidence and Limitations
(a) Discussion of ongoing experiments to test the role of microtubules in consciousness and the impact of anesthetic gases.
(b) Challenges in bridging theoretical concepts with empirical data.
(c) Acknowledgment of the lack of mainstream research on Orch OR and related ideas.


8. Broader Implications
(a) Categorization of scientific theories (superb, useful, tentative).
(b) Current state of theories on consciousness as falling short of even the “tentative” stage.
(c) Connections between intelligence, understanding, and awareness, with emphasis on understanding as central.


9. Philosophical and Scientific Reflections
(a) Limitations of defining terms like understanding, awareness, and intelligence in mathematical terms.
(b) Speculation about the mystery of subjective experiences (e.g., perception of colors, synesthesia).
(c) Recognition of the fundamental gaps in our understanding of consciousness from both a physics and philosophical perspective.

There is so much we can learn from a great mind and person such as Roger Penrose.

Source
 
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Consciousness Pre-Dates Life
New Evidence for a Radical New Theory
04 August 2024


This video is a short-form version (13 minutes). For the full video (33 minutes) see the link at the bottom.

Summary​

Professor Stuart Hameroff argues that consciousness predates life, exploring quantum processes and their role in understanding consciousness. The video provides some historical scientific context, a deeper dive into microbiology, and how the brain interfaces with a quantum level consciousness. It also provides a hypothesis for how consciousness may have existed prior to life and where we might look to find evidence.

Highlights

🌌 Quantum Vitalism: Schrödinger’s idea that quantum coherence could explain life’s essence.

🧬 Microtubules: Structures within neurons essential for processing information and consciousness.

💡 Anesthesia’s Mechanism: Anesthesia interrupts quantum processes in microtubules, affecting consciousness.

🔬 Coherent Oscillations: Importance of coherent oscillations in organic molecules as indicators of life.

🧠 Neural Complexity: Neurons operate through complex interactions, not merely as simple switches.

🌱 Signs of Life: Identifying coherent oscillations and quantum effects in extraterrestrial molecules.

🧩 Orchestrated Objective Reduction: A theory proposing that consciousness arises from quantum processes in the brain.



Key Insights

🔍 Quantum Coherence and Life: Quantum coherence might be foundational to understanding life and consciousness. This suggests that life may arise from deeper quantum processes rather than traditional biological definitions. 🌌

🧪 Microtubules as Consciousness Hubs: Microtubules are key players in neural function, suggesting that consciousness may be more complex than previously thought, involving intricate quantum dynamics. 🧬

💤 Impact of Anesthesia: The mechanism by which anesthesia affects consciousness underscores the link between quantum processes and conscious experience, revealing vulnerabilities in our understanding of consciousness. 💡

🎶 Oscillations in Living Systems: Coherent oscillations in biomolecules could be fundamental indicators of life, expanding the criteria for identifying life forms beyond Earth. 🔬

🌐 Neuronal Networks vs. Simple Models: Viewing neurons as merely computational units is limiting; the brain’s complexity involves intricate interactions that contribute to consciousness. 🧠

🌌 Extraterrestrial Life Indicators: The search for life in the cosmos may hinge on detecting specific quantum effects and coherent oscillations in organic molecules from celestial bodies. 🌱

📜 Critique of Computational Models: Current computational theories may not adequately explain consciousness, suggesting a need for new frameworks that incorporate quantum mechanics. 🧩

Full Video
 
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