Discussion on order and chaos

[Poetic Justice]

It's mostly just the idea that order inevitably springs from chaos-- that's all. It doesn't mean that God or Jesus is responsible… if you were reading the same article that popped up when I googled it just now then yeah, I can see how you would come to that conclusion-- some guy just liberally added his own BS to it and completely removed it from reality. It's basically the same old boring stupid process of saying 'we don't know this, therefore Jesus did it', which is especially amazing when it's actually their own fault for not even trying to understand what they're reading.

Ah but it's the other way round my friend. Chaos comes from order

And I meant rub it in my face in a good way. I like being wrong although you'd never be able to tell until you'd convinced me that it had happened

You were right about life being an increase in order in terms of planet earth. If we look at it from the solar systems point of view though entropy still increases but that's not what I was thinking of. I didn't know about the "closed system" part of entropy

 

[Poetic Justice]

The abuse of a theory does not nullify the theory itself.

I have never read any religious opinion on chaos theory, but it seems that to be able to verify the existence of chaos requires that one be able to identify chaos. But to identify something is to find a recognisable, stable quality of it. And such a quality implies orderliness, nullifying the assertion of chaos.

No no. Anti-chaos theory.

Chaos theory is awesome and definately not pseudo science. It is anti chaos that seems to be nonsense. Unless you care to provide me with a link minus the religious overtones

Again you misunderstand what chaos is. It isn't the complete lack of order. It simply a word used as the opponent of order. If something is cold it doesn't mean it has no heat whatsoever. It's just less hot than other hot stuff

Chaos is a decrease in order. Not the complete lack of it

Edit: have a smilie so this remains civil

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I kinda get what your saying but I think you have misunderstood what order and chaos actually mean. Firstly, you need to abandon all the socially accepted connotations of order and chaos. Order is simply structure. Specific arrangements of particles, limited in the ways they could be described. Chaos is less specific arrangements of particles and therefore can be described in more different ways (see the glass of water thing above)

I don't think there is such a thing as pure chaos because if everything was as spread out as possible it would suddenly become orderly again (if it's uniform that means there is only one way to describe it). Hence my theory

The orderly thing which created order in our universe could simply be the universe itself btw. Balancing itself out by returning to a 0 energy state

I admit I'm kinda on the edges of my understanding here and am applying some of my own theory to this.

Any statement of chaos is only relative to a more stable thing.

To say that water is chaotic is essentially to say that it is structurally chaotic: the molecules move all over the place. However, this structural state is only chaotic when compared to the solid phase of matter (amorphous, or crystalline). But in comparison to the liquid phase of matter, water is entirely orderly and consistent.

If I were to guess something about water that is chaotic - that is, completely baffling - it would be that a given volume of hot water freezes more quickly than an identical volume of cold water - both being under identical freezing conditions.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

No no. Anti-chaos theory.

Chaos theory is awesome and definately not pseudo science. It is anti chaos that seems to be nonsense. Unless you care to provide me with a link minus the religious overtones

Again you misunderstand what chaos is. It isn't the complete lack of order. It simply a word used as the opponent of order. If something is cold it doesn't mean it has no heat whatsoever. It's just less hot than other hot stuff

Chaos is a decrease in order. Not the complete lack of it

Edit: have a smilie so this remains civil

I was focusing on the impossibility for us to say that anything exists without order. This implies that we can only really say that order is an ubiquitous quality of existence.

 

[Poetic Justice]

Any statement of chaos is only relative to a more stable thing.

To say that water is chaotic is essentially to say that it is structurally chaotic: the molecules move all over the place. However, this structural state is only chaotic when compared to the solid phase of matter (amorphous, or crystalline). But in comparison to the liquid phase of matter, water is entirely orderly and consistent.

If I were to guess something about water that is chaotic - that is, completely baffling - it would be that a given volume of hot water freezes more quickly than an identical volume of cold water - both being under identical freezing conditions.

Water is a liquid phase of matter

BTW I can tell you read my link and are trying to make sense of it. I'm sorry but you're not quite managing it

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Water is a liquid phase of matter

BTW I can tell you read my link and are trying to make sense of it. I'm sorry but you're not quite managing it

Classically, matter is described as being in four phases: solid, liquid, gas and plasma. However, work on super cooled gases and superconductors leaves the door open for other phases.

From memory a phase refers to the possible states of a particular molecule - and state is a more absolute term - so substitute state where preferable.

 

[Poetic Justice]

Classically, matter is described as being in four phases: solid, liquid, gas and plasma. However, work on super cooled gases and superconductors leaves the door open for other phases.

From memory a phase refers to the possible states of a particular molecule - and state is a more absolute term - so substitute state where preferable.

I was just using the same word you used. Phase actually refers to wave functions being in step with each other, or not

The other state of matter you're thinking of is called a bose-einstein condensate. There could be others I suppose

 

[Apone]

Ah but it's the other way round my friend. Chaos comes from order

I think I've figured out what the problem is here… I'm not sure that the meaning of order/disorder (chaos) in thermodynamics has the same meaning as chaos as in chaos theory, or chaos as in common usage… so it looks like we're actually talking about 3 different things here.

 

[Poetic Justice]

I think I've figured out what the problem is here… I'm not sure that the meaning of order/disorder (chaos) in thermodynamics has the same meaning as chaos as in chaos theory, or chaos as in common usage… so it looks like we're actually talking about 3 different things here.

The common useage is meaningless in this discussion

Entropy and chaos theory are intimately related though so I would imagine they mean the same thing. Not sure though. Checking google now...

 

[Poetic Justice]

Got it I think

They mean the same thing but chaos theory is partly about trying to find order out of the seemingly completely chaotic. As I said before I don't think absolute chaos is possible so of course there are some patterns. How else would we be able to kinda predict the weather?

There is some order to be found but this order does not increase on the whole and it gets harder and harder to accurately predict what that order will be the further in time you look. the universe is massively in favour of chaos/entropy increasing. All kinds of weird stuff happens as the universe attempts to fill the gaps with heat but the net result is a loss of order

If on the other hand the system isn't closed, which basically just means you change your point of view (swap from the universe to the earth) then due to the extra influx of energy from the sun, order can increase. But this is just a trick really. The universe is one big closed system in which chaos always increases