Divinity & Perfection

[Auburn]

If we are perfectly adapted to it, then why are we all so hell bent on destroying the world through consumption and exploitation of resources and overpopulation?
In that regard, we're dumber than the animals.
I think humanity has managed to adopt a pretty maladaptive stance in this epoch.

In that regard.. yes. I'd have to agree.
We have indeed ventured away from ecological stasis, in our desire to improve ourselves. Going astray as we have may indeed end up killing us, but this process may also be the horizon of an ever greater evolution (i.e. Transhumanism)

We may just be, at present, in the limbo between pre and post (biological) humanity. The transition, if it indeed ever happens, will necessarily come with a lot of strain and awkwardness. We may even come close to genocide, or destroy all natural life in the process. We may or may not succeed in transitioning but I doubt we'd destroy ourselves completely.

Imagine with me that in 500 years from now we have reached complete transition from being an organic creature to being a mechanical creature. And we now exist in a different era of the world where post-humanity has established dominion over all life.

We no longer have issues with overpopulation because posthumans are only ever made when necessary - while we have still preserved an equivalent pleasure to sex, without linking it to reproduction. We no longer have ecological complications, or issues with food because our needs are not organic. Our efficiency is optimal with little maintenance, and our euphoria far surpasses anything the previous sapiens could achieve.

 

[barbad0s]

If we are perfectly adapted to it, then why are we all so hell bent on destroying the world through consumption and exploitation of resources and overpopulation?
In that regard, we're dumber than the animals.
I think humanity has managed to adopt a pretty maladaptive stance in this epoch, at least.

What's wrong with that? There's still dignity in going out with a bang like the dinosaurs, or melting away with the wooly mammoths. What makes us so sure that our species was one that was meant to never go extinct anyway? The only creatures that have managed to survive for many millenia are simple ones like grass, and amoebas.

 

[Auburn]

I hear cockroaches are also longtime survivors..
Resilient to 400 million years of environmental fluctuation..


...


Now that's perfection. ^_^

​

 

[barbad0s]

^ Mankind's ultimate destiny.

 

[acd]

What's wrong with that? There's still dignity in going out with a bang like the dinosaurs, or melting away with the wooly mammoths. What makes us so sure that our species was one that was meant to never go extinct anyway? The only creatures that have managed to survive for many millenia are simple ones like grass, and amoebas.

The difference is that an outside catastrophe is what caused their extinction.
How embarrassing as a species i would be to go extinct because of our own stupidity.. which is likely to happen if we don't really work to turn things around.
Also-
I never said humans were not ever going to become extinct.

 

[barbad0s]

Did they cause their own extinction or was it an outside catastrophe that led to their extinction?
I never said humans were not ever going to become extinct.

Maybe dinosaurs killed each other using mind control.

You never know.

 

[acd]

In that regard.. yes. I'd have to agree.
We have indeed ventured away from ecological stasis, in our desire to improve ourselves. Going astray as we have may indeed end up killing us, but this process may also be the horizon of an ever greater evolution (i.e. Transhumanism)

We may just be, at present, in the limbo between pre and post (biological) humanity. The transition, if it indeed ever happens, will necessarily come with a lot of strain and awkwardness. We may even come close to genocide, or destroy all natural life in the process. We may or may not succeed in transitioning but I doubt we'd destroy ourselves completely.

Imagine with me that in 500 years from now we have reached complete transition from being an organic creature to being a mechanical creature. And we now exist in a different era of the world where post-humanity has established dominion over all life.

We no longer have issues with overpopulation because posthumans are only ever made when necessary - while we have still preserved an equivalent pleasure to sex, without linking it to reproduction. We no longer have ecological complications, or issues with food because our needs are not organic. Our efficiency is optimal with little maintenance, and our euphoria far surpasses anything the previous sapiens could achieve.

I don't think it's a desire to improve ourselves that has led us to venture away.. We found something comfortable... for the short term. Look at what our dependency on oil is doing to the world.. and still, it's just so hard for big business to tear itself away from its profits at the expense of the health of our ecosystems..
We've just begun to think about the long-term implications.. and those really thinking about it are the ones who aren't going to lose money if we revamp the way we run things.

Transhumanism is an interesting idea..
But it does not seem to be the ultimate human achievement to me... we're fiddling with nature.
We're stopping our own evolution. I'm much more interested in what the universe has in store for us in 500 or 500 million years in the future than I am at humanity becoming androids.
Your views on transhumanism seem to contradict your initial statements about religion, which is wrong for stating: "This is how man should be."

Maybe dinosaurs killed each other using mind control.

You never know.

God you're hilarious... D

 

[barbad0s]

Inorite I wish I could rep myself

 

[Morgain]

The path to actualization is therefore a journey to return to our first mother. It is a quest to understand the Self and respect it's nature as Divine. It means to develop hypersensitivity to one's own physical state - to be ever alert to the signs of the body and honoring them. It implies we search within ourselves in complete honesty to find and destroy every disguised belief we hold that does not synchronize with who we are.

Perfection begins by falling in love with yourself. Then, once this essential intimacy is formed, when the relationship with the Self is secured, the eye is turned to development.

A perfect man is one who is always 'becoming'. The very same code that defines our perfection also holds within it a desire for growth, a desire to improve endlessly. Yet so many falsely interpret this desire to improve and say to themselves - We are imperfect, else we would not desire improvement - when instead, the desire to improve is part of our perfection. The human species is always evolving, and therefore, paradoxically, in striving for a higher, more perfect goal, it reaches it's destination.​

I really like this post!!!

It is something that has been bothering me. I believe that humans are perfect as they are, with all the aspects we call bad or sinful. But we seem to be programmed to feel the need to evolve. This automatically implies that we are not perfect upfront because if we where perfect we wouldn't feel the need to evolve. It is a never ending story. We seek perfection but we will never reach it since evolution never stops. It can not stop because if it would stop, then what the hell are we doing here?

The only way out is that we truly believe we are perfect and see the "need for evolution" not as a quest to perfection but as a play for experience.

this also raises some concerns because if everybody sees life as a play than who is going to follow the rules. If humans are perfect, then every act is perfect and nobody can be punished. Will this lead us to chaos or salvation?

maybe the path to our true selves will lead us to a way of life that doesn't need morals and rules. But then again this implies that there is a way of life without suffering and pain while suffering and pain are an inherently part of our perfection

one thing is certain and that is that change is the keystone of life

 

[Auburn]

I don't think it's a desire to improve ourselves that has led us to venture away.. We found something comfortable... for the short term.

Nyoo, it has..

Our disposition toward improvement (adaptation to environment) is what has led us to our advancements in technology, science, engineering, medicine, etc. Throughout history, every advancement we've made (the creation of tools, levers, buildings) has been driven by the instinct to adapt, executed by our imagination.

Those advancements (which originated from a desire to improve quality of life) have now made us venture away from our own health in some ways we did not forsee... but that doesn't mean our intent wasn't to improve.

Look at what our dependency on oil is doing to the world.. and still, it's just so hard for big business to tear itself away from its profits at the expense of the health of our ecosystems..
We've just begun to think about the long-term implications.. and those really thinking about it are the ones who aren't going to lose money if we revamp the way we run things.

Right. I agree here, only adding that the impulses that have led to this are actually quite normal and intended to preserve us. Contradictory as it may seem, those CEOs actually are looking out for wellbeing (of themselves and their employees, their families) - but it is shortsighted, necessarily.

Today is more important than tomorrow, and tomorrow less important than next year. If you're hungry now, you won't think about what you're gonna buy next week - you focus on the present. o.o

I realize foresight would have been ideal, but honestly speaking, sometimes it's impossible to properly project plans into the future when one would require awareness of what inventions will be created then and what the environment/situation would be like then, to accurately project. The farther into the future you project, the more variables you're leaving up to imagination and hypothetical. The closer something is to the present the more accurately one can project. Even 5 years into the future brings about things we never imagined; how much more a century?

In a nutshell, what I'm saying is that those who invented cars back in the late 1800s, and those oil companies that have been created to sustain automobiles - couldn't have known the complications they might create. And by the time they found out, the ball had been rolling for so long that to stop it is like trying to stop a train without brakes.

It's more difficult than just saying these CEOs are evil, selfish bastards. You don't know that. They could be very noble people who are just stuck in a bad position. So many lives depend on their stability that to suggest overhauling the company might get them fired or who knows, maybe even shot. Their other option would be to propose an alternative direction for the company to take.. ... but an oil company cannot magically turn into an electric car company. People are trained for certain things and have billions invested in very specific factories/machines.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I support their efforts.... wait, actually I do. Every time I drive my car I do, and they do their job because of me, and eveyone else like me. I'd be hypocritical to dislike them unless I drive a bike or buy my own electric car which are at present rather expensive.

Transhumanism is an interesting idea..
But it does not seem to be the ultimate human achievement to me... we're fiddling with nature.
We're stopping our own evolution. I'm much more interested in what the universe has in store for us in 500 or 500 million years in the future than I am at humanity becoming androids.

Yes? :3
We are nature, are we not? And are we really stopping our own evolution, or is what we are doing the next step in evolution?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1079797626827646234# (it's long, but give it a chance! D= ..i don't think you'll regret it)

Your views on transhumanism seem to contradict your initial statements about religion, which is wrong for stating: "This is how man should be."

It can be that, depending on who you are.
I have some friends who think humanity is flawed and in need of overhaul..
Personally I think humanity is a magnificent species as it is, but it can still be made even better, endlessly perhaps.

 

[acd]

I realize foresight would have been ideal, but honestly speaking, sometimes it's impossible to properly project plans into the future when one would require awareness of what inventions will be created then and what the environment/situation would be like then, to accurately project. The farther into the future you project, the more variables you're leaving up to imagination and hypothetical. The closer something is to the present the more accurately one can project. Even 5 years into the future brings about things we never imagined; how much more a century?


In a nutshell, what I'm saying is that those who invented cars back in the late 1800s, and those oil companies that have been created to sustain automobiles - couldn't have known the complications they might create. And by the time they found out, the ball had been rolling for so long that to stop it is like trying to stop a train without brakes.

We've had evidence for years of the effects our practices are having on public health and the environment.. and yet little changes. That's the thing, as a whole, humanity, the civilization or culture or whatever you want to call it as a whole is illogical and maladaptive. We could talk about the oil industry.. but it's even the way we produce food. The food we eat (not to mention the soaps we use and etc. etc.) contain harmful chemicals that won't hurt us immediately, but in the long run--will most likely make us sick.

I agree that people think about survival short-term.... and that those that benefit the most off of practices that do not cause harm to their immediate environment and situation are not likely to change their practices because they are currently benefiting.

If anything, humanity seems to become enslaved to its own ideas. We create ideas and then implement them into practices that become bigger than ourselves and you are right--it is something like trying to stop a train on a dime.

An oil company of course cannot magically become an electric company because they would immediately lose profits by changing what's already working for them.. though in the future, they could certainly benefit. Yes. I see that people think short-term despite the implications.


We are flawed in that as a whole, it is difficult as a species to evaluate evidence and then change practices and adapt. It's difficult to get over 6 billion people on board.
A dog will eat if you keep feeding it from the table until it makes itself sick. We're kind of like that in a way.

In short, I guess I was trying to say that humankind's fixation on the short-term despite long term implications is a flaw--because we are capable of much better.
Foresight is one of the things that sets us apart from the animal kingdom. It is something that should be utilized.
Our genes do not make us perfect. Our interaction with the environment is just as important in shaping our genes and evolving humankind. We have a lot of power when it comes to deciding how to interact.. but that power or intelligence doesn't make us right or perfect if our interactions prove harmful. Anyway. I'm not sure if transhumanism is meant to be our next step.

But I'm going to watch your video now.

In regards to the video, I find myself agreeing with the lady theologian when she says that it isn't the technology that could be problematic, but the attitudes of the people utilizing it that could be problematic. I'm thinking about all the corporate and political interests that may end up taking advantage of the technology... and also that it will likely not be available to all people.

I don't believe we're socially evolved enough to utilize it responsibly. As the video points out, there will be people opposed to transhumanism or cyborgs.. and there will be people who will take advantage of the technology. It could end up ever-widening the gap in social classes.

Most likely, the "Humanists" will end up disenfranchised and oppressed. Dios mio! One of the speakers likens natural humans to cows in relation to cyborgs in the future. That does not sound like a utopian world to me! But maybe I've gone ahead and read one too many Octavia Butler novels. This is all starting to remind me of the Patternist series.

It does kind of blow my mind, however, that humans could create these super intelligent beings or build technology to make ourselves super intelligent, while those who choose to remain human may be seen as 'dumb' or 'inferior.'