Do you believe in pre-destiny?

[Oranguh]

I believe in randomness and entropy.

This, but I'm also a fatalist. lol, well, it's possible, so.

People usually connotate fatalism to complacency to the present/future. Whereas believing that one is master of his/her own fate is more attached to a "proactive mindset". But this isn't always true per se.

I believe that everything can quite possible be a very large and complicated formula for life. But that doesn't mean I am complacent with the things at hand. I never give up on things I find important and I revel in change. This may seem contradicting, but, I mean, it's possible right? Anyways, even though everything is "predestined" it doesn't give any human the right to cast their predictions of the future into stone and not act. (or something like that)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyways, I think I think it's about two different subjects. Fatalist/pre-destiny as a concept itself and the different mentalities attached to it.

To me it's very possible that fatalism is true but free choice is also possible. I'm not sure if anyone can "prove" either. But whatever beliefs you may hold of the universe and everything... In the end.. It's how you go about these beliefs and how you use them to lead your life that makes the real difference.

I know lazy people that believe in free will. e.g. "I do nothing and my life sucks because I choose to do so" but I also know people who are fatalist and are supa lazy "It doesn't matter what I do I'll always be like this because nothing matters what I do. It's all been pre-destined anyways"

I don't think it has much to do with the beliefs... more with the individual...

lol

 

[Barnabas]

God is dead. (Nietzsche)

he got better

 

[Bird]

If predestination in the most black and white terms exists
then there is no such thing as free will. There is no such
thing as "right" or "wrong". No one is responsible for their actions.

 

[acd]

@ acd

Good questions, since you asked for me to give my input I'll try best to explain. These are questions that makes allot of believers who claim to be followers in Christ squirm, but they are also serious questions that need to be tackled by the horns and answered truthfully.

Let me ask you a question.
Why did the government create prisons and jails knowing that some people will end up in there? The answer:
Protection, Punishment and Justice.

Hell was created for the devil and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41).
Their crime? Rebellion against God. Now people choose to go there by doing same by rejecting Christ. This is what is known as the blasphemy of the holy spirit which is the one sin that is unforgivable (Matthew 12:31).
Now unlike devil and his fallen angels we were given the gift of redemption through Christ who died for those that sincerely follow him.

I'm probably sounding like a broken record by now... but I'm going to carry on none the less because this is where it gets interesting.

Now concerning predestination;
This is a concept that is really tricky to understand and to explain, but I'll give it my best shot anyway.

God chooses us, we don't choose him. God predestines who choose to follow him. How? Because he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He already knows whats going to happen and what choices we will make (Ephesians 1:4).

God gave us responsibility over our actions (which is an given attribute of us being made in his image) which is often mistaken for free will (when I say free will, I'm referring to free will over our spiritual selves and destination).
Our hearts are sinful by nature (as the result of the fall) therefore we don't have the ability (or the right) to choose him. When you think about it, it turns the tables around when you start choosing God, because it puts you in a position that is higher in authority than God himself, which doesn't make sense. This sort of thinking is the result of sin and how it distorts our perception of God's authority and God's attributes.

Salvation is based on God's grace alone (faith is a gift of the holy spirit), not on an individuals efforts. Which is is ultimately the difference between the Christian faith and the Christian religion. Faith is about God, Religion is about Me (my works, my efforts, my righteousness, following the golden rule etc.). With God's grace, the individual doesn't need religion, because out of love for God followers in Christ will keep his commandments and repent of their sins. They will serve him because by grace God has given them a new heart and a new perspective on life around them.

Examples of God choosing us (or finding us) can be found in the parable of The Lost Sheep and the parable of The Lost Coin (Luke 15:1 - 10)

Is God Choosing Unjust?

No. Romans 9:20 - 24.

God is love, but first and foremost God is just.
God is perfect and sovereign, we are not. We sealed our fate when Adam and Eve turned against God.
Since we rebelled against God, god gave us a gift that he didn't give the devil nor his angles, and that is his grace (2 Peter 2:4).

(Romans 9:15) - For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

(John 15:16) - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

I will say now that God is complex and is beyond our understanding.
However 'God works in mysterious ways' is a term I dislike using because it is used as an escape route to get away from answering complicated questions. The only people who say that 'God works in mysterious ways' are the ones who haven't sat down and read the bible properly and rely on others to explain the gospel to them. I hope that I have managed to answer at least some of your questions. If you have any more, drop me a line.

Please remember that my views are Calvinist and differ from Arminianism. So not all Christians will give you the same answers as I did. At the end of the day it is your choice to choose what you make of this response.

I am not a minister nor a scholar (obviously), just a nerd that enjoys reading and researching the bible and informing people about the gospel to whomever asks about it.

Thanks for replying @Matariki .

But I still don't see how people can be held responsible for their actions--expected to repent or suffer the consequences of eternal damnation if God has predestined who will believe and who will not believe. I don't see how that is just.
I understand that you have cited bible verses, and again, I'm not trying to offend anyone's beliefs--but I see that as circular reasoning.
My question is a philosophical one, and not a biblical one. I should have been clear about that, sorry.

 

[randomsomeone]

I don't see how that is just.

Agreed, that does not sound just and, while one could extract this out of some Christian theological positions (and discussions of the same), it is not a summation of Christian belief at all. I'd forget you ever heard it...it is not essentially Christian.

 

[Morgain]

it is hard to determine whether life is predestined or not

people don't like the idea of pre-destiny:
1. If life is going to be the way it is going to be than why bother changing it? this would lead to apathy
2. People might think that they where meant to be a criminal. We can not let that happen. Criminals are bad and should be punished.

but the idea of free will isn't good either because:
1. if there is free will there is no purpose to life, we can do whatever we want and nothing tells us what to do --> confusion
2. people might start thinking that they can do whatever they want and we can not let that happen. People that do not behave according to the rules that we hold dear should know that they are wrong and should be punished

so we must find an answer to this dilemma that makes sure that people believe they have control of their life so that they work hard to improve it but not so much control that they can do whatever they want.
Hence we invent a God that gives us free will but besides that also makes a set of rules we should follow and if we don't follow them we are punished for eternity (as if that is free will). And if that is not enough it is so unclear to what that set of rules is. Different people claim it to be a different set of rules and all of them claim that if you don't follow their rules God will punish you. So in the end our loving God gives us free will to obey to a set of rules we are unaware off in order to punish us for eternity when we fail

he sounds like a bored kid that hurts animals for its own pleasure

What I believe is that the meaning of life is to experience. I feel that there is a deep hidden structure/meaning to life that I can't put my finger on but besides that there is free will without judgement.

 

[Gaze]

Okay, I had to think about this one for a minute or two. I said yes. I believe that there are lessons you are supposed to learn in this life and people who have walked with you before. I don't think your actual choices are predestined but I think some elements of your life are already in place. I think events unfold to allow you to make different choices--to see the world in a different way, to allow your spirit to grow and mature if you are capable of finding the courage to make those changes. I think you are meant to know certain people, that indefinable sense of comfort and knowing you feel when you meet them--something about their spirit calls to you. I think there are patterns and random events. I believe in duality. I think your spirit is ever evolving until you decide to allow it to go dormant. I believe in seeing the world without limiting myself but find that I am better at the within (known) stuff than the without (unknown) stuff--to embrace the unknown is to let go of your own definitions of what is.

+1 agree with much of this.

 

[randomsomeone]

free will without judgement.

To me (within my own experience), this could sum up the idea of God and our true destiny quite well. The idea of accessing our true destiny is one of essentially becoming liberated so that our will is truly free to be free. This may mean a process of letting go of and unlearning the illusory and the false. In this case, it is less a matter of judgement between a list of rights and wrongs (union is not possible in a world of judgement), but more a movement towards truth and connection rather than disconnects and illusion....a world of "what is" as opposed to a world of "what is not." Within this destiny lies a great dignity for us...than that of connection with the One Divine Life, a life which we are, were, and always will be a part...we just have to return to and remember this. In this case, our destiny is to simply become our true selves. This, however, can be quite a journey.

 

[Matariki]

But I still don't see how people can be held responsible for their actions--expected to repent or suffer the consequences of eternal damnation if God has predestined who will believe and who will not believe. I don't see how that is just.
I understand that you have cited bible verses, and again, I'm not trying to offend anyone's beliefs--but I see that as circular reasoning.
My question is a philosophical one, and not a biblical one. I should have been clear about that, sorry.

acd

Well, because we are dealing with God, I can't address this from a philosophical perspective. Not without referencing the bible. I'll make it clear now that our views on power, justice, love, hate etc. is distorted compared to God's. God foresees, but It doesn't necessarily mean that he wants the fate that is destined for them. I'm not saying the God is powerless, but him intervening after everything that he has already done for humanity would contradict his work.

Would you believe in God if he popped up in front of you, or would you question and try to rationalize what you saw? This was the problem that Jesus encountered during his life on earth. We are nothing without faith in God, we are blind.

God is the Alpha and the Omega and is not bound by time. He has seen and experienced both the beginning and the end. In biblical fact, he is just that. Because we are born in the flesh and our hearts are sinful we are unable to see the errors of our ways, not unless they hurt another individual. God is not sinful, therefore sin is criminal to him because it contradicts his work. Therefore God is just and has first say. Adam and Eve sealed our fates, through their actions our spirits died because of our separation from god. God is sending those who are dead to the grave where they belong, hell (Sheol, place of eternal death).

Put it this way, would you want dead bodies in your house? Neither does god. Do the dead have the right to complain? This life is nothing more than a morgue for them. Its his grace that breaths new life into us. God has already seen the possibilities, the results of choosing and awakening those through his grace and yes, we can ask God. Anyone can talk to God if they choose to, and God will hear them.

The question is however, do you really want to? That's your responsibility of choice.

 

[acd]

[MENTION=1815]Matariki[/MENTION]

You can address it from a philosophical perspective because you are a sentient being capable of reason.
I don't believe in anything unless I have a sound reason to believe in it and it seems to stand up to questioning.

God foresees, but It doesn't necessarily mean that he wants the fate that is destined for them. I'm not saying the God is powerless, but him intervening after everything that he has already done for humanity would contradict his work.

How is God not powerless then? Other than because the bible says so.

Put it this way, would you want dead bodies in your house? Neither does god. Do the dead have the right to complain? This life is nothing more than a morgue for them. Its his grace that breaths new life into us. God has already seen the possibilities, the results of choosing and awakening those through his grace and yes, we can ask God. Anyone can talk to God if they choose to, and God will hear them.

I don't think this is a fair comparison.
I haven't created the 'dead bodies' and promised that I am a loving and merciful God.

 

[Galileo]

No, at least not in anything beyond what your genetics determine you will have. why? simply because I think it's impossible to predetermine what someone will do or be in say 20 years time. I don't see it as humanly or scientifically possible.

 

[bickelz]

I think many things happen for a purpose but not that we're predestined to do stuff.

 

[nil]

I'm a fatalist.

 

[Matariki]

@Matariki

You can address it from a philosophical perspective because you are a sentient being capable of reason.
I don't believe in anything unless I have a sound reason to believe in it and it seems to stand up to questioning.
How is God not powerless then? Other than because the bible says so.
I don't think this is a fair comparison.
I haven't created the 'dead bodies' and promised that I am a loving and merciful God.

I can only explain what I believe in and what is in the bible. I understand that you are having some trouble understanding some of the comparisons that I made.

Forgive as I am still young and dumb, I have much learning and growing to do before I will be able to explain the gospel more efficiently.

I think the most universal way to look humanity in a spiritual sense is like sheep. Easily disorientated (If you have worked with sheep you will know).
To be a Christian is to change ones identity as a human being and submit themselves to the lord. An individual cannot do that unless they know and understand what it means to be broken and flawed as a creation. Our perception and understanding of the attributes of God is distorted according to the bible. We know no different than what were given, when we were born into this world. We are spiritually blind, as a result follow what suits us first and what we can tailor to fit our religious needs. Everyone can understand the concept of religion, but faith, to understand it you need to experience it by seeking to build a realtionship with God through Christ.

God is not powerless, we are just like to justify ourselves by trying to disprove his abilities.
God didn't create spiritually dead bodies, we choose to die through Adams and Eve's actions. We lost more than we gained from their actions. Distorted knowledge of right and wrong and death. And we have the nerve to blame God for our own errors? God created us with the intention of being perfect, however he knew what we going to happen, but out of love instead of throwing us away he continued to persevere with us, like a good potter does with his clay.

Faith in God is a supernatural act as the result of receiving his grace. As a result, faith becomes Christian logic, allowing an individual to understand the word of the bible and grow spiritually.

 

[invisible]

not really, as too many things seem unpredictable, but i don't kid myself that my will is the sole determinant in the direction my life takes either.

 

[invisible]

i think in reality i probably do deep down believe in it as it helps me to remain enthusiastic about my goals to imagine that they are meant to be and the idea that they are inevitable gives me confidence to keep moving towards them. i feel shaken in this belief though by all of the people in the world who will never achieve their goals or who seem to suffer for no reason and no purpose with no positive outcomes for anyone. can i really justify myself as more special, or more deserving than them, of love and success? at least in more sober moments, definitely no!

 

[acd]

I can only explain what I believe in and what is in the bible. I understand that you are having some trouble understanding some of the comparisons that I made.

Forgive as I am still young and dumb, I have much learning and growing to do before I will be able to explain the gospel more efficiently.

I think the most universal way to look humanity in a spiritual sense is like sheep. Easily disorientated (If you have worked with sheep you will know).
To be a Christian is to change ones identity as a human being and submit themselves to the lord. An individual cannot do that unless they know and understand what it means to be broken and flawed as a creation. Our perception and understanding of the attributes of God is distorted according to the bible. We know no different than what were given, when we were born into this world. We are spiritually blind, as a result follow what suits us first and what we can tailor to fit our religious needs. Everyone can understand the concept of religion, but faith, to understand it you need to experience it by seeking to build a realtionship with God through Christ.

God is not powerless, we are just like to justify ourselves by trying to disprove his abilities.
God didn't create spiritually dead bodies, we choose to die through Adams and Eve's actions. We lost more than we gained from their actions. Distorted knowledge of right and wrong and death. And we have the nerve to blame God for our own errors? God created us with the intention of being perfect, however he knew what we going to happen, but out of love instead of throwing us away he continued to persevere with us, like a good potter does with his clay.

Faith in God is a supernatural act as the result of receiving his grace. As a result, faith becomes Christian logic, allowing an individual to understand the word of the bible and grow spiritually.

[MENTION=1815]Matariki[/MENTION] I don't think you're dumb.
We just have different approaches in attempting to understand these types of things..

 

[Norton]

A belief in predestination is a belief in determinism. That is, an outcome is completely predictable given a complete understanding of a system. Since only God can completely understand the Universe, only God can determine the future state of the Universe with 100% accuracy.

Now, notwithstanding the above, modern physics has moved away from a determinate Universe and toward a more random, stochastic Universe. Thus, you find disparate authors such as Feynman and Taleb writing about the totality of multiple, alternate pathways to arrive at a particular future, which, retrospectively becomes the present and then the past. Most people will look backwards at history and disregard the paths not taken. Indeed, this seems logical. But, from the physicist's and the probabilist's perspective, the paths not taken are as much a part of reality as the path identified in retrospect. Indeed, the "paths not taken" are used in certain types of probabilistic computations that yield real world results. Quantum mechanics is just one example. There are also examples in market theory and econometrics among others.

 

[donkeybals]

I read the rest of the post.

God is dead. (Nietzsche)

God knows what he's doing. He can ressurect himself whenever he wants..

 

[This]

I read the rest of the post.

God is dead. (Nietzsche)

"Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal." - Tolstoy