Does anyone have a Plan?

Deleted member 16771 said:
What we need is a huge fucking catastrophic war, where every third man is killed, and then surf the reconstruction spirit wave after peace is declared.

All of this shit is possible, but people simply don't have the guts or the communitarian spirit for it.
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I used to think that too, but that won't work for the same reason some of my grandparents generation still hate Germany and the family they lost in war.

It will breed as much hate as it will solve, especially on the defeated.

The only way to unite humanity is an Alien Invasion, and thats rather unlikely...

War isn't a solution, just more problems.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
I used to think that too, but that won't work for the same reason some of my grandparents generation still hate Germany and the family they lost in war.

It will breed as much hate as it will solve, especially on the defeated.

The only way to unite humanity is an Alien Invasion, and thats rather unlikely...

War isn't a solution, just more problems.
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I was joking, there.

It is after all the plot of 1984 which you mentioned earlier. Even so, that wartime spirit kicks ass, and great things can be achieved with it.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
Does anyone have a plan to make the world better?

I mean an actual plan to drastically improve society and counter the dangers the modern world is manifesting?

Given we live in a world where the corrupt and tyrannical can buy or butcher their way to success and democracy is a popularity contest rather than a way of selecting the best and brightest to lead, does anyone have any ideas on how to get to a position to make a BIG difference?

Does anyone know how to make the world better without damaging other people or causing even greater damage and suffering? How do you prevent the corruption of your otherwise noble ideas by the selfish, greedy and malicious?

How do you get the rest of the world to buy into your ideas in the long term, and not end up having them cast aside due to their impractical nature during implementation?

I have a few basic ideas, but its not something I can do alone and I'd love to talk with people who have thought similar thoughts...
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Thats a great question, I dont have a plan but only some thoughts that perhaps could inspire someone.

I think we have been living, in many years, by a society that is always arranged in a way to have many losers and few winners, the society of the victourious that has a massive of failures.
I think one of the biggest humanity "diseases" is that many people wanting to win as long as there are plenty of people who lose, and thats unsunstainable in many ways and that generates lots of suffering. The pattern repeats and is more or less of the same... Today is a minority of rich and lots of poor people (you from 1st world dont end up actually seeing the massive poverty), in middle ages there was the kings and the servants, and even in the past there are something with this pattern. I dont think equalty is the solution, but rather something that reframes it without the concept of winning and losing at all, disregarding this idea. However, I dont know what that something would be. I have been trying to focus on my own thing rather and avoiding situations where my victory doenst [EDIT: DOES] depends on somebodys failure [EDIT: Try to make my "victory" independent from the failure of others], but there will be always situations where Im forced to be on that situation.

Also, I think that, in the past, both capitalism and socialism have a monopolistic mindset in terms of system and both of them wanted to spread like cancer and see which one ends up victorious. This may be funny, but today we even have people spreading the monopoly of the free market. I think we would be more used if there would have different systems co-existing in a more harmonious way then instead one desperately trying to sabotage and destroy the other for the sake of their own monopoly. A world with both capitalism and socialism countries not sabotaging each other, and, even better, something that isnt either capitalism nor socialist nor a fusion but rather something entirely new, would be great. A mindset recognizing that these systems are in evolution, and that no one should get way too attached to a single one of them, but rather open to the flow of evolution. We should analyse what ism really serves humanity. I think capitalism and socialism should serve humanity but lately, humanity has been serving capitalism and in socialism countries, serving communist (whatever you or I understand as communism/socialism). The same for states and free market: The state and free market should serve and live for people, and not the opposite. I think there is a good demand for something new and beyond capitalism, or a real fix for capitalism problems that arent based on faith or manipulated data.

Perhaps I can come with more later but these are the two things popping in my mind...
 
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There may be a way forward eventually using AI. The City and the Stars by Arthur C. Clark describes such a governing system but of course using technology we can only dream of at the moment. The possibility is that AI can actually analyse situations that are beyond the power of people to grasp and to accurately predict outcomes in a way that isn’t possible at the moment. A major obstacle is that I suspect human economic and political systems manifest mathematical chaos - by which I mean that very slight differences in the present may lead to huge differences in the future. As long as the AI is set up with the right adaptive goals though it should be possible most of the time to constantly monitor and correct the way things progress.

There would have to be some way of preventing the AI from simply removing people altogether of course :D. More pressing is that the development of such technology would involve false starts and errors with major economic and political consequences - these would have to be accepted as essential learning curve issues, but that’s no different to any other technological innovation.
 
Vendrah said:
Thats a great question, I dont have a plan but only some thoughts that perhaps could inspire someone.

I think we have been living, in many years, by a society that is always arranged in a way to have many losers and few winners, the society of the victourious that has a massive of failures.
I think one of the biggest humanity "diseases" is that many people wanting to win as long as there are plenty of people who lose, and thats unsunstainable in many ways and that generates lots of suffering. The pattern repeats and is more or less of the same... Today is a minority of rich and lots of poor people (you from 1st world dont end up actually seeing the massive poverty), in middle ages there was the kings and the servants, and even in the past there are something with this pattern. I dont think equalty is the solution, but rather something that reframes it without the concept of winning and losing at all, disregarding this idea. However, I dont know what that something would be. I have been trying to focus on my own thing rather and avoiding situations where my victory doenst [EDIT: DOES] depends on somebodys failure [EDIT: Try to make my "victory" independent from the failure of others], but there will be always situations where Im forced to be on that situation.

Also, I think that, in the past, both capitalism and socialism have a monopolistic mindset in terms of system and both of them wanted to spread like cancer and see which one ends up victorious. This may be funny, but today we even have people spreading the monopoly of the free market. I think we would be more used if there would have different systems co-existing in a more harmonious way then instead one desperately trying to sabotage and destroy the other for the sake of their own monopoly. A world with both capitalism and socialism countries not sabotaging each other, and, even better, something that isnt either capitalism nor socialist nor a fusion but rather something entirely new, would be great. A mindset recognizing that these systems are in evolution, and that no one should get way too attached to a single one of them, but rather open to the flow of evolution. We should analyse what ism really serves humanity. I think capitalism and socialism should serve humanity but lately, humanity has been serving capitalism and in socialism countries, serving communist (whatever you or I understand as communism/socialism). The same for states and free market: The state and free market should serve and live for people, and not the opposite. I think there is a good demand for something new and beyond capitalism, or a real fix for capitalism problems that arent based on faith or manipulated data.

Perhaps I can come with more later but these are the two things popping in my mind...
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1) This is certainly the case more in the US and to a lesser extent the Anglosphere. Europe tends to more social and thus more focus on protecting the weaker members of society.
That said, there is a reason why many of the best and brightest in Europe migrate to the Anglosphere at some point in their careers as they can win bigger there.

2) I agree, it was more a mindset pre-WW1 and WW2. Before those wars there was a lot of suffering but also a sense of honour and value beyond oneself. The nation matter more. These days individualism means everyone wants a piece and will take chunks out of each other to get it. I put it particially down to the mass death of honourable lower and middle class individuals in the trenches of WW1. Those that survived both wars were either hard as nails or dodged fighting through less than honourable means. Move on 70 years with no wars and entitlement has reached new heights. We need a step back to more community spirit.

3) I agree, the end goal of the most stable and successful system is a hybrid system. Not all socialism is bad just as not all capitalism is bad. Its whenever someone sticks to an ideology blindly problems occur.
Take the best of every system and put them together and you get a better world.

The difficult part is moving from our current system to a better one, something I am currently looking into.

John K said:
There may be a way forward eventually using AI. The City and the Stars by Arthur C. Clark describes such a governing system but of course using technology we can only dream of at the moment. The possibility is that AI can actually analyse situations that are beyond the power of people to grasp and to accurately predict outcomes in a way that isn’t possible at the moment. A major obstacle is that I suspect human economic and political systems manifest mathematical chaos - by which I mean that very slight differences in the present may lead to huge differences in the future. As long as the AI is set up with the right adaptive goals though it should be possible most of the time to constantly monitor and correct the way things progress.

There would have to be some way of preventing the AI from simply removing people altogether of course :D. More pressing is that the development of such technology would involve false starts and errors with major economic and political consequences - these would have to be accepted as essential learning curve issues, but that’s no different to any other technological innovation.
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Absolutely, technology is the solution to so many problems. As a Student of AI myself I know the power (and weakness) of AI.

I think many people over estimate the power of AI. I don't think human level AI will appear for another 100-500 years. This is particially down to the fact we don't have stable neuron level maps of the human brain yet. Building something of that capacity is a long way off. Plus, we probably won't need it. Why make a human when specialised AI are far more useful.

Elon Musk warns about the danger of AI but I think we're more at risk of other humans than an AI, at least for 100 years or more. A programming screw up is a technical issue rather than a rebellious AI. Rebellious AI need to be approaching human level to occur, otherwise its merely an AI doing what its been told to do, just someone taught it wrong.

Of course the EU and other governments will begin limiting the power of AIs which will restrict human development... That does worry me a little.

Also using AI to 'Predict' criminals worries me as well...

We need to improve our social and political systems soon or technology will be abused.
 
ruji said:
I thought this was a plan for myself. Instead it's some impossible shit
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Not impossible. Its a thought exercise to find what IS possible.

Changing the world isn't easy and can't be done all at once, but little changes can make massive shifts years down the line.

And I'm not asking for moon, merely what active little shifts can be done to make larger impacts. No Revolutions, no unrealistic expectations of my fellow humans.

Understanding the systems that exist how they can be manipulated for good rather than purely self interest is my goal here (though it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive).

If you have a plan for yourself that is commendable, but if you ever find yourself with success I would request you use some of your powe rto improve your community.

I want to make the world better, not such a bad thing to want, no?
 
ReasonEnduring said:
Not impossible. Its a thought exercise to find what IS possible.

Changing the world isn't easy and can't be done all at once, but little changes can make massive shifts years down the line.

And I'm not asking for moon, merely what active little shifts can be done to make larger impacts. No Revolutions, no unrealistic expectations of my fellow humans.

Understanding the systems that exist how they can be manipulated for good rather than purely self interest is my goal here (though it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive).

If you have a plan for yourself that is commendable, but if you ever find yourself with success I would request you use some of your powe rto improve your community.

I want to make the world better, not such a bad thing to want, no?
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No, it's impossible. Even if you could fix everything (which is extremely improbable), it would revert back to shit because the root of the problem is people.
 
ruji said:
No, it's impossible. Even if you could fix everything (which is extremely improbable), it would revert back to shit because the root of the problem is people.
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I don't plan to fix everything just go from a 5 to a 6.

People are the problem and the solution. If you work with realistic expectations then you can make improvements.

Within the past few centuries we have seen Democracy flourish globally, brough Slavery to all time lows, racial equality at the heighest its ever been, improved the lives of billions worldwide and more.

There is a long way to go. Things are slipping in the West and we need to combat that.

But the alternative is do nothing and things get worse. And I ain't having none of that.
 
ruji said:
No, it's impossible. Even if you could fix everything (which is extremely improbable), it would revert back to shit because the root of the problem is people.
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Thats really connected to my "point 1", although its deep than that.

I insist, this mindset of some few big victories and several failures is an old pattern that repeats in societies distant in space and time.
Just reinforcing: Today, its the capitalism, the few super rich and several poor.
In middle age, it was a few kings and several servants.
Before middle age, it was something like that, a few nobles/kings and several servants/slaves.
Even in Russia, I insist, there was the Czars and the rest of people.
And then, when the communist thought they get rid of czars, I still ask myself: Did they? In several films relating to Soviet Union, we see special russian generals and Stalin "comrades", with all their stars, suits, "briefing power", they were pretty much being czars.

It has several names, you can name whatever you want it: Financial success and poverty, divine throne and servants, czar and other russians in a bad life, Stalin and general comrades and other commies, its the same thing getting different forms in different contexts. It is indeed something beyond capitalism repeating over and over again. Like 95% or more of this forum is for intuitives, so I do believe you can understand what I am refering to (explaining this in "sensing language" would be very difficult). I even risk to say that the worst enemy isnt "a commie", "a terrorist", "the rich", "the state", but rather these invisble patterns that keeps repeating themselves, the same thing rises over and over again not mattering which people are killed in wars. Understanding and combating these patterns would be my answer, but at the moment I dont really see any way at all for properly doing so.
 
All I can do... All I will do:

Stay positive.
Keep a smile.
Encourage positive behavior.

So many of us want to change the world for the better, yeah. But we can really only do it one person at a time, one day at a time. There's too much in this world that's out of our control, and always will be.

Set an example. Be the good in the world.
 
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BritNi said:
All I can do... All I will do:

Stay positive.
Keep a smile.
Encourage positive behavior.

So many of us want to change the Rd for the better, yeah. But we can really oy do it one person at a time, one day at a time. There's too much in this world that's out of our control, and always will be.

Set an example. Be the good in the world.
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Very true. Still, my reach has always exceeded my grasp so I will probably always want to do more and try to do more.
 
BritNi said:
I'm confused by this statement.

Are you saying that you're an angel?
Or something else?
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BAsically its saying its easy to be a good person when you aren't suffering.

Wealthy people with few or no mental health issues (IE in Heaven) are in a better position to be good people (Angels) than people who are poor or suffering (IE in Hell).

Its also the theme of the film Parasite (though it was a saying long before it).

Basically, being good is luxury and sometimes being immoral seems justifyable in bad circumstances.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
BAsically its saying its easy to be a good person when you aren't suffering.

Wealthy people with few or no mental health issues (IE in Heaven) are in a better position to be good people (Angels) than people who are poor or suffering (IE in Hell).

Its also the theme of the film Parasite (though it was a saying long before it).

Basically, being good is luxury and sometimes being immoral seems justifyable in bad circumstances.
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That's a very biased view, Reason.
 
dragulagu said:
That's a very biased view, Reason.
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Its somehting I've observed and clearly I'm not the only one as I say, its the central theme of the movie Parasite.

There is an undenyable correlation between areas of high crime and areas of high poverty.

Speaking as someone from a comfortable background, most of my pears in comfortable situations were better behaved than those who had trouble at home, IE, abusive parents, poverty etc.

This is not universally the case (nothing is), but it is an observable statistical trend.
 
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