Dogmatism in Religious Discourse

[pzl2lxie81mc]

If you believe it, then you are saying it...you’re funny.

 

[Deleted member 10171]

The fact that 2+2=4 is something that (although some might differ) we may safely declare a universal truth

Just for now...I wanted to say that bit above made me giggle - ohhh for so many reasons (but let's not go there...not this morning) So beautifully and delicately worded.

Thank you @Ren for your response. Will try and post a detailed response later.

 

[Deleted member 10171]

I think what I meant was that, since belief in God cannot be established as an absolute truth by humans, it requires a certain kind of commitment to keep it alive. The fact that 2+2=4 is something that (although some might differ) we may safely declare a universal truth and then stop thinking about it, but the question of God's existence is different. Faith is a commitment to what cannot be rationally established as self-evident; but if so, then faith itself cannot be considered as given. It has to be kept alive - but to be kept alive, it should never be taken for granted. If we're not accepting the possibility that we may doubt our faith, we're taking it for granted. But if we're taking it for granted, we're taking the existence of God as a self-evident universal truth, which it is not; or at least humans do not have the cognitive powers to establish that it is. So doubt must remain a part of faith.

Thanks again for your response @Ren. *whispers* Don't tell anyone else but I haven't read through every post in this thread. Your quote by Augustine "Doubt is another element of faith" stood out for me because coincidentally, I had a bit of a self-actualization on Saturday about this very subject - so quote was very poignant for me. The quote captures a real, honest and raw place of a deep personal struggle which is essentially what life is about. The quote is gritty in nature and in complete opposition to blind faith which is presented as "shut your eyes tightly, cross your fingers and think magical thoughts" and hopefully something tangible will transpire.

For me anything that involves keeping something alive requires extraordinary levels of human effort, willpower and conscientiousness etc - this is doubt. Doubt and double-minded (interchangeable) is described as, "a person with two minds or souls, in both character and feelings, wavering, uncertain and dividend in interest" etc.

Faith isn't manufactured, faith is imparted and is a gift. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Faith is God given and doubt is man-made

I think we should all start from a place of doubt. Doubt has so many purposes.........I'm going to leave another quote by Augustine which is more food for thought....

“Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore, seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.” St Augustine
.
Thank you for helping me to make the connections....

 

[wonkavision]

Look, when Larry King, for example, invites people onto his show to discuss religion, I've never heard him say to one of his guests, "Well, you can't know that. That's just your opinion. You don't have a monopoly on who God is and what God says, Blah blah, etc."

You know why Larry King doesn't say that? -- Because he expects them to be dogmatic. He expects them to quote Scripture and say, "This is what God says." In fact, he is counting on them to do that.

That is the whole reason he invited them there. To share their knowledge on the topic at hand. He does not expect them to hem and haw and say, "Well, I'm not sure, but this might be what God said."

And in the same way, you should not expect to come into a thread on a religious topic, and not have some people share their knowledge as a representative of their religion!

You are insane if you think that religious people should not defend the doctrine that you are attacking! Or to correct you when you misrepresent their religion. That's just ridiculous.

 

[Misty]

Wow, just unbelievable. Don't people understand that religion is not like science or philosophy? It's not a mere matter of opinion or just speculation. It's a matter of conviction!

In this day and age, because of the mass brainwashing of people, from childhood, by postmodernists, it is almost impossible for anyone to conceive of an absolute, objective truth.

I'm going to throw myself under the unpopular bus here guys.. sorry. But... I agree with you @wonkavision

We are told time and time again as faithful not to be "lukewarm" as not to be spat out. There is no place in the bible that says "ladies and germs, waiver in your faith for me please".. O.O

God wants, nee, expects us to lean on Him, to trust in Him, and to put our faith in Him. It's the whole point of the game. Don't hate the player who has faith, just because you don't.. Of course He understands we all fall short of the glory. He understands we will all be tested and all of us will doubt that he is moving in our lives at these times of great distress and tribulation. But his wish is that these things only strengthen our faith, in the end. And the only discussion / doubting he wants us to be having is the sort that examines and defines the theories and principles being presented to see whether or not they align with his word, or not. Period.

 

[Ren]

For me anything that involves keeping something alive requires extraordinary levels of human effort, willpower and conscientiousness etc - this is doubt. Doubt and double-minded (interchangeable) is described as, "a person with two minds or souls, in both character and feelings, wavering, uncertain and dividend in interest" etc.

Thank you for this inspiring post! I agree that keeping something alive requires great levels of human effort. Like one Christian Existentialist said...

And the only discussion / doubting he wants us to be having is the sort that examines and defines the theories and principles being presented to see whether or not they align with his word, or not. Period.

I understand where you're coming from, but once bereft of doubt, this just sounds like arbitrary belief to me. I really see the possibility for doubt as what gives faith its utmost strength. I have to say that I'm also not convinced that even the staunchest believer never doubts.

 

[Misty]

Thank you for this inspiring post! I agree that keeping something alive requires great levels of human effort. Like one Christian Existentialist said...

I understand where you're coming from, but once bereft of doubt, this just sounds like arbitrary belief to me. I really see the possibility for doubt as what gives faith its utmost strength. I have to say that I'm also not convinced that even the staunchest believer never doubts.

Aye Inspector But as you read my post.. note that I spoke of this "doubt" we ALL feel as faithful. And correct! As I also stated, it is indeed this very doubt we feel in our most dire tribulations and trials as a "Christian" that strengthen our faith like steel.

The doubt that I am against is the same sort that @wonkavision is protesting. It is, an entirely different species than the sort of faith strengthening doubt you and I are speaking of.

The doubt we are arguing against is the sort that asks us to question the very validity of our own faith and convictions, themselves. And if we are to accept that an atheist "dogmatically" dismisses God and his existence (( refusing to listen or bend otherwise in his convictions )).. then those who do not believe, must lend the faithful amongst them, the very same respect.. .

 

[Misty]

PS.. @Ren That is a kick ass quote

*Saves it forever*

 

[AJ_]

I see you’re posting this in addition to the one about original sin. I’ve only read a few of those posts, but what I’m seeing is you seem to believe that everyone else is going to hell, but you’re going to be saved. I mean...

Honestly, think about it. Recognize that a lot of people don’t think they’re going to hell, or that other people are going to hell, or even live life with that kind of mindset. I don’t know, I just don’t walk around thinking, oooh you’re a sinner, you’re going to hell. Oooh, you too, and you, and you and you and you - you’re all going to hell. Mwahahahaha.

Anyway, it has been my observation that Calvinism can often lead to a sense of entitlement - the comfort and security of knowing that there are a select few. Because really, which Calvinist doesn’t believe or strive, to be one of the select few? But the other side of that is everyone else, the masses, and it’s ok if they suffer, right? They’re going to hell anyway. Who cares about them. Apparently, not god.

Skakerow has a very wide perspective, you might do yourself a favor and learn a little more from him.

 

[wonkavision]

I'm going to throw myself under the unpopular bus here guys.. sorry. But... I agree with you @wonkavision

We are told time and time again as faithful not to be "lukewarm" as not to be spat out. There is no place in the bible that says "ladies and germs, waiver in your faith for me please".. O.O

God wants, nee, expects us to lean on Him, to trust in Him, and to put our faith in Him. It's the whole point of the game. Don't hate the player who has faith, just because you don't.. Of course He understands we all fall short of the glory. He understands we will all be tested and all of us will doubt that he is moving in our lives at these times of great distress and tribulation. But his wish is that these things only strengthen our faith, in the end. And the only discussion / doubting he wants us to be having is the sort that examines and defines the theories and principles being presented to see whether or not they align with his word, or not. Period.

Excellent post. Thank you.

These people are just like Cain who slew his brother Abel because God accepted Abel and did not accept Cain. God have mercy on them.

 

[Misty]

Excellent post. Thank you.

These people are just like Cain who slew his brother Abel because God accepted Abel and did not accept Cain. God have mercy on them.

Thank you.. I am sure I will get some resistance for uttering this, but I am not one to shy away from defending my faith in public, though I wish to expound upon my thoughts with respect and love. But I do have a little personal theory that people who get extremely angry at Christians for believing( not that I am saying ppl here were angry - I only read a few comments ) - but I think this anger comes from a deep down well of hidden and firmly denied fear. To be specific, the fear that "maybe", just maybe we crazy Christians could be right and God could actually be real in the end.. and woe to the inhabitants of the Earth.. what will this mean for them?

 

[wonkavision]

Thank you.. I am sure I will get some resistance for uttering this, but I am not one to shy away from defending my faith in public, though I wish to expound upon my thoughts with respect and love. But I do have a little personal theory that people who get extremely angry at Christians for believing( not that I am saying ppl here were angry - I only read a few comments ) - but I think this anger comes from a deep down well of hidden and firmly denied fear. To be specific, the fear that "maybe", just maybe we crazy Christians could be right and God could actually be real in the end.. and woe to the inhabitants of the Earth.. what will this mean for them?

Yeah, of course it's offensive to them to hear that if God doesn't save them they will go to hell. But I keep telling them that whoever seeks the Lord's mercy and grace will surely find it.

Why don't they hear that? They only focus on the first part, and act like I'm condemning them to hell!

Why on earth would I bother to warn them if I didn't actually hope that they would seek the Lord's mercy???

 

[wonkavision]

@MistyWrites

Besides, don't these amateurs want to know what the Bible actually says before they debate it?

Do they really think that their arguments hold any weight when they have no idea what it says?

 

[Misty]

Yeah, of course it's offensive to them to hear that if God doesn't save them they will go to hell. But I keep telling them that whoever seeks the Lord's mercy and grace will surely find it.

Why don't they hear that? They only focus on the first part, and act like I'm condemning them to hell!

Why on earth would I bother to warn them if I didn't actually hope that they would seek the Lord's mercy???

Approach.

If our approach is harsh or rude then it is easy to see why people get the idea that Christians are judgementally bashing people.. God expects us to be kind.. to everyone. We are to fish, not to cram and push.. We are to live by example and calling people names or becoming angry at them will only turn them off to everythinggg you utter after. Common sense.. Remember that.

Some people will never, ever bite no matter how gentle the approach. Because at the end of life we must all answer for ourselves.. each man, each woman.. And if a person was raised atheist etc or chose for themselves to not believe in God, then no more will you convince them that He is real, then they will convince you that He isn't...

#dogmatic

Have you ever tried just being a glowing person? I mean that, quite literally. To let the people you come in contact with, every day, see the light and hope and love radiating from inside? Especially during a trial? Thissss is the very strongest testimony and evidence of the living God which you can provide.. This will often cause people to ask you about him.. of their own free will. This is what God means.. imo.. when he tells us to be "fishers of men".. . Otherwise he would have said: "Be bludgeoners of men" and handed us mallets, no?

You cannot force a square peg into a round hole.

Free choice, were all humans given..

 

[Misty]

@MistyWrites

Besides, don't these amateurs want to know what the Bible actually says before they debate it?

Do they really think that their arguments hold any weight when they have no idea what it says?

See??? You just lost your entire street cred andddd your argument will be not only UNHEARD after name calling out of frustration but will thereafter be disregarded as hateful garbage (( No matter if you have Jesus speaking on a video )) because you have first opted to insult the intellect of your audience, you are claiming to love to the point of saving... ..

Not to mention hurting their feelings and lending fuel to their proof that Christians are hateful creatures instead of loving souls looking out for their salvation.

 

[wonkavision]

See??? You just lost your entire street cred andddd your argument will be not only UNHEARD after name calling out of frustration but will thereafter be disregarded as hateful garbage (( No matter if you have Jesus speaking on a video )) because you have first opted to insult the intellect of your audience, you are claiming to love to the point of saving... ..

Not to mention hurting their feelings and lending fuel to their proof that Christians are hateful creatures instead of loving souls looking out for their salvation.

Alright, fair enough. You make a good point.

Thanks for your input. I'll take that to heart.

 

[Misty]

Alright, fair enough. You make a good point.

Thanks for your input. I'll take that to heart.

That was very mature of you Thanks for hearing me out.

 

[wonkavision]

That was very mature of you Thanks for hearing me out.

Well, I have decided that I'd prefer to stay away from religion threads from here on out. I'd rather spend my time here on lighter subjects.

Also, I apologized to the offended parties.

 

[Misty]

Well, I have decided that I'd prefer to stay away from religion threads from here on out. I'd rather spend my time here on lighter subjects.

Also, I apologized to the offended parties.

I'm not saying you have offended anyone here.. I only read a few comments. But I thought perhaps terms like amateurs might not be a great way to warm up your audience to hear your argument, which if delivered politely might not fall on deaf ears.

You expressed being a bit confused as to why you might be unheard still, or as to why your message of hope was not being received well, or at all, and I wanted to honestly help and point out what I saw happening..

Your heart is in the right place, just your fishing technique lacked a bit of tact.. o.o

I hope I have not discouraged you from fishing in the future.. If so, I honestly apologize, as well. :/

 

[wonkavision]

I'm not saying you have offended anyone here.. I only read a few comments. But I thought perhaps terms like amateurs might not be a great way to warm up your audience to hear your argument, which if delivered politely might not fall on deaf ears.

You expressed being a bit confused as to why you might be unheard still, or as to why your message of hope was not being received well, or at all, and I wanted to honestly help and point out what I saw happening..

Your heart is in the right place, just your fishing technique lacked a bit of tact.. o.o

I hope I have not discouraged you from fishing in the future.. If so, I honestly apologize, as well. :/

No, you have not discouraged me. I just think that as long as there's an unwritten rule that you can't be dogmatic in a religion thread, I just find that to be too limiting for me.

My main purpose here is to meet other INFJs, because I don't have enough exposure to them in my daily life. I didn't come here to preach, or to offend people, but to relax and have fun.