Economic status and friends and acquaintances

Gist said:
Middle and working class. Tougher to maintain friends with lower or working class because people expect more of you, want you to carry them, and play on your generosity by mentioning often how tough life is for them. They expect friends doing somewhat better to make up for what they don't have.
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I actually find this opinion of lower income people to be downright offensive. It's a massive generalisation. I read it the other day and wasn't going to say anything, but it's stuck with me for a couple of days now. I'm not easily offended, but this one really bothers me.

As someone who is lower income, it feels like an attack on my character. It's really just not true. Maybe of individuals, but not as you've written it -- the lower income and working class. You've obviously never been a part of either of these categories if you could speak this way. Many of us are very embarassed and struggle with how we are perceived.

I have friends from all walks of life, money income bracket and class is never an issue. The only time it becomes an issue for me is if I tell someone I can't afford to spend anything and would like to do something for free like go for a walk or have a picnic,and they ignore me and try to bully me into spending money at a restaraunt or something. It's embarassing. I either end up having to spend money I can't afford to spend or else I politely turn down their offer to pay.

It's harder with my middle class bracket friends as most of them seem to be more extroverted and like to go out at night a lot. This usually doesn't work for me as babysitting is very hard to get and going out is expesnive. Honestly, I think it has more to do with being having a child and being a single parent than it does with money.
 
The idea of class is always complicated. How do you judge it? By how much is in the bank account or by how one carries themselves? I know here in Ireland there is always this stereotype (Which is often true) of lower / working class people dressing in tracksuits and having thick accents etc. I know people who are technically lower class in income now, but would still come off middle class due to how they speak, dress and carry themselves.

Personally, i dont let class become an issue in my friendships. It can be difficult dealing with upper class people who don't have much understanding of lower class issues. Similarly, although I am technically lower class income I was brought up very middle class and found this was really reflected when I dated someone from the working class. I didn't have an issue with it, but he was very defensive and took issue with things. I think coming from the working class he was more used to people looking down on him and judging so he entered the situation in defense mode.

People are people and i think they should be judged on personality and not on anything else.
 
Katniss Neverbeef said:
I actually find this opinion of lower income people to be downright offensive. It's a massive generalisation. I read it the other day and wasn't going to say anything, but it's stuck with me for a couple of days now. I'm not easily offended, but this one really bothers me.

As someone who is lower income, it feels like an attack on my character. It's really just not true. Maybe of individuals, but not as you've written it -- the lower income and working class. You've obviously never been a part of either of these categories if you could speak this way. Many of us are very embarassed and struggle with how we are perceived.

I have friends from all walks of life, money income bracket and class is never an issue. The only time it becomes an issue for me is if I tell someone I can't afford to spend anything and would like to do something for free like go for a walk or have a picnic,and they ignore me and try to bully me into spending money at a restaraunt or something. It's embarassing. I either end up having to spend money I can't afford to spend or else I politely turn down their offer to pay.

It's harder with my middle class bracket friends as most of them seem to be more extroverted and like to go out at night a lot. This usually doesn't work for me as babysitting is very hard to get and going out is expesnive. Honestly, I think it has more to do with being having a child and being a single parent than it does with money.
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You took offense at something that has nothing to do with you. I spoke from my personal experiences of how I've been treated. Everyone has their own experiences. I'm not defending my position to you or anyone else.
 
Interesting posts about class distinctions. Its a very interesting dimension to this that I didn't consider. I recently met someone who I liked but the person became so obsessed with the differences in our incomes that I felt who I am as an individual wasnt seen. It was a bummer because the persons comments were endlessly related to comparing their lifestyle to mine.

It became so difficult for me to be around them because they couldn't get past this and just see me as a human being. The person made continual angry comments about the differences in our lifestyles. It really kind of sucked and hurt my feelings because I just wanted to be friends but they brought all this other 'stuff' into it that didn't have anything to do with me as an individual. I just liked them and wanted to be friends. It made me wonder if most people mainly gravitated towards friendships/relationships that stayed within the same income brackets. I honestly never thought about it before.

I like to think friendships or any kind of relationships depend on the individuals. I like to think people can work around differences in income if they are open to doing so. But if people perceive other people as belonging to a particular group with no room to just be an individual on the planet they're really closing themselves off to a lot of experiences by their own limited perceptions. Sorry if that seems a little harsh but my feelings are still hurt.
 
Gist said:
You took offense at something that has nothing to do with you. I spoke from my personal experiences of how I've been treated. Everyone has their own experiences. I'm not defending my position to you or anyone else.
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I'm aware this post was not about me. What I was saying was that it was a blanket statement that seemed to encompass all lower income people. You can't paint everyone with the same brush. This is why I found it offensive. Like lower income people are lazy and users or something. It made me personally feel highly uncomfortable because of just how generally it seemed to be meant.
 
Katniss Neverbeef said:
I'm aware this post was not about me. What I was saying was that it was a blanket statement that seemed to encompass all lower income people. You can't paint everyone with the same brush. This is why I found it offensive. Like lower income people are lazy and users or something. It made me personally feel highly uncomfortable because of just how generally it seemed to be meant.
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Maybe I shouldn't have generalized my statements, but my point was everyone has different experiences, and you can't tell them their experiences are true or false if that's what they've experienced. I've had too many experiences with people taking advantage.

People are friends with you for what they can get. I've had people target me just because they thought I'd be nice person who they could kiss butt with, who would pay for them, or treat them to things, while they rarely ever lifted a finger to initiate something nice for me, just because they thought I had it easier or better (as if I didn't work hard for it, and it was just handed to me). I've been called spoiled because I don't have the responsibilities others, while I have freely shared what I have with others, no questions asked.

So, it pisses me off when someone wants to attack me without understanding context. I didn't judge people initially by class, but I was judged me by it. I don't want to feel guarded because of someone's class, but if I'm being judged by my class only, I'm going to be defensive. It's not fair to me to feel bad about the fact that others are using me as a means to an end.

Just as @Sadie nicely explained, sometimes people don't see you for just you anymore but what you have or give. Even others doing better than you will focus on what you don't have, or ways you don't fit in.
 
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Gist said:
Maybe I shouldn't have generalized my statements, but my point was everyone has different experiences, and you can't tell them their experiences are true or false if that's what they've experienced. I've had too many experiences with people taking advantage.

People are friends with you for what they can get. I've had people target me just because they thought I'd be nice person who they could kiss butt with, who would pay for them, or treat them to things, while they rarely ever lifted a finger to initiate something nice for me, just because they thought I had it easier or better (as if I didn't work hard for it, and it was just handed to me). I've been called spoiled because I don't have the responsibilities others, while I have freely shared what I have with others, no questions asked.

So, it pisses me off when someone wants to attack me without understanding context. I didn't judge people initially by class, but I was judged me by it. I don't want to feel guarded because of someone's class, but if I'm being judged by my class only, I'm going to be defensive. It's not fair to me to feel bad about the fact that others are using me as a means to an end.

Just as [MENTION=5224]Sadie[/MENTION] nicely explained, sometimes people don't see you for just you anymore but what you have or give. Even others doing better than you will focus on what you don't have, or ways you don't fit in.
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And im sorry if I made you feel like your experience wasn't valid. I'm sure you have had some bad experiences. My point was (and the reason I got offended) was just the mass generalisation. There are some really wonderfully hard working and kind, generous lower income people in the world.

Similarly I've had friends who aren't bad off at all but would still use me. People who might be bragging about making 80 euro a night in tips but would still ask to borrow money off me when I wasn't doing well financially and never return it.

It's just people being selifsh, entitled and greedy, but i don't think it's necessarily a class problem.
 
Katniss Neverbeef said:
And im sorry if I made you feel like your experience wasn't valid. I'm sure you have had some bad experiences. My point was (and the reason I got offended) was just the mass generalisation. There are some really wonderfully hard working and kind, generous lower income people in the world.

Similarly I've had friends who aren't bad off at all but would still use me. People who might be bragging about making 80 euro a night in tips but would still ask to borrow money off me when I wasn't doing well financially and never return it.

It's just people being selifsh, entitled and greedy, but i don't think it's necessarily a class problem.
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Thanks. Agree, that people will use each other regardless.
 
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My husband and I are working class and most of our friends are the same...Pipe fitters, truck drivers, construction workers (the guys), stay at home moms, hairdressers, nurses and some teachers (the women.) Most of our close friends also have artistic tendencies...lots of musicians, painters, writers who pursue their artistic endeavors on the side of their days jobs. I'm from an upper middle class family (doctors, lawyers, business owners, college professors) but never felt like I fit into that world.
 
invisible said:
I don't think that distinction is false exactly, I just think it shows how silly and outdated this particular distinction process is. A person may own a storefront as property but be so dependent on their work in it that they can't afford to hire anyone to work in it for them and too afraid to leave the counter, have to urinate in a bottle under the counter. While by contrast a person may work in white collar organisation on a sort of pay arrangement that amounts to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, and this person maybe has multiple teritiary qualifications, takes regular overseas holidays for leisure purposes, owns luxury cars. And yet the ranking hierarchy, "lower, middle, upper", which sort of implies that there is something superior about being higher on that classification, places the person who is living in conditions that are practically desperation conditions, at a higher place than the person who owns no business or means of production.
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Yes I totally see your point here. I agree that on the surface this make sense in the scheme of things that uppers have easier lives than lowers. I think that it's just what you are struggling against. Uppers struggle against over abundance vs under abundance, deciding where to place your time in order to get the most bang for your buck vs. people telling you where you are going to place your time, things like that. I guess it seems like a good problem to have and socially it is viewed as better. But make the wrong mistake and then you might find yourself at the bottom with nobody... at least with the people already at the bottom that isn't such a lonely place.

I don't have the viewpoint that life is easier necessarily as you move up the scale. I think if you go from Lower lower class to upper lower class is an easier standard of living, but to go from upper- lower, to lower-middle is where the difficulty lies. At least in the class mobility sense.

The thing I envy most about my "lower class" friends is that they have very interesting interests in things such as music, movies, and the like. They make considerably less than I do. I am not sure how they are maintaining all these interests and maintaining a standard of living not all that different than my own. Like do they not eat or are they sleeping outside? I'm not sure where I should be spending less to come out ahead here.
 
My world kinda makes me encounter people from both sides?

...hmm. Wait. I think the economic status is more complex here.

Lessee.

I am middle-upper class myself; and I know people from similar economic class.
But my circle puts myself with people from the working class and middle-lower class as well.

The upper class and lower class-- both, I admit I don't know a lot. My sister and father would know better; but I don't.
 
Katniss Neverbeef said:
The idea of class is always complicated. How do you judge it?
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If we are discussing SES it is strictly determined by annual household income.
Upperclass = $150K+
UMC = $100-150K
Middle Class = $60-100K
LMC = $32-60K
Working Class = $23 - 32K
Poverty = less than $23K


If we are talking about social class then other factors such as family background, education, and career field come into play.


I'm solidly middle class but being a single mother with 2 children who need childcare my social class is probably more similar to the working class. I have friends and family in all ranges, there are good and bad people in all groups.
 
Jet said:
If we are discussing SES it is strictly determined by annual household income.
Upperclass = $150K+
UMC = $100-150K
Middle Class = $60-100K
LMC = $32-60K
Working Class = $23 - 32K
Poverty = less than $23K


If we are talking about social class then other factors such as family background, education, and career field come into play.


I'm solidly middle class but being a single mother with 2 children who need childcare my social class is probably more similar to the working class. I have friends and family in all ranges, there are good and bad people in all groups.
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Scottish Economic Society? There were so many SES acronyms I couldnt decipher the right one, please advise.
 
the said:
Scottish Economic Society? There were so many SES acronyms I couldnt decipher the right one, please advise.
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Lol sorry

Socioeconomic status - SES
Upper middle class - UMC
Lower middle class - LMC
 
Jet said:
Lol sorry

Socioeconomic status - SES
Upper middle class - UMC
Lower middle class - LMC
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Are these federal numbers? I only have IN numbers on hand because I do that type of work and my numbers are different. How many family members for each group?
 
the said:
Are these federal numbers? I only have IN numbers on hand because I do that type of work and my numbers are different. How many family members for each group?
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That is the statistical ranges based on averages nationwide (in the US) for a family of 4.
 
Personally I think the term class relates to things besides just money, but I see it as mostly a very divisive term and I really hate that. I'd really like to see society become a more equal and inclusive place, to me the old ideas around the economy, class and money are very outdated. I don't say that to be 'trendy liberal' but the way we live on earth has been radically altered by technology. A lot of work has been automated, and that is a good thing.

We don't need to force people to do what they're told through economic means, or stratify the way we still do, just to maximise our survival, if anything these things now endanger our lives. Probably the greatest risk to humanity today (even ahead of global warming) is a new pandemic. The biggest risk to this is the population growth globally, aligned with low level education/infastructure and poverty and the very interconnected world we live in, often in highly dense city polulations.

Change is maybe painful, but necessary. Breaking patterns of thought/behavior is not easy though, and to me that's the real barrier. and now back to sports lol..
 
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