economical prosperity or freedom of mind

[Krumplenump]

Shai Gar,

In my first accusative post of the Dalai Lama I brought up the following things that you asked evidence for:

1. His silly rules regarding matters of sex
2. Acceptance of money from a Japanese terror cult and donations from the CIA [funded armed Tibetan guerillas]

I'll add to that his apparently changed views on the nuclear issue.

See below.

Interesting interview with the Dalai Lama by the NY Times in 1993, the higlighted areas of which coroborrate my claims of his ludicrous sexual directives and his links to armed Tibetan guerillas and CIA funds.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/nytimes.htm

Source: The New York Times, 11/28/1993
Written by: Claudia Dreifus

Q: In a recent issue of the Buddhist magazine Tricycle, the actor
Spalding Gray asked you about your dreams, and you said you sometimes dreamt
of women fighting.

A: Women fighting? No, no. . . . What I meant was that, in my dreams,
sometimes women approach me and I immediately realize, "I'm bhikshu, I'm
monk." So you see, this is sort of sexual. . . .

Q: In your dreams, you realize this and you "fight" the feeling?

A: Yes. Similarly, I have dreams where someone is beating me and I want
to respond. Then, immediately I remember, "I am monk and I should not kill."

....

Q: It is said that you get up at 4 in the morning. How can you be lazy?

A: It's not that kind of laziness. For instance, sometimes, when I visit
some Western countries, I develop an enthusiasm to improve my English. But
when I actually make the effort to study, after a few days, my enthusiasm is
finished. [Laughs.] That is laziness. Other weaknesses are, I think, anger
and attachments. I'm attached to my watch and my prayer beads. Then, of
course, sometimes beautiful women. . . . But then, many monks have the same
experience. Some of it is curiosity: If you use this, what is the feeling?
[Points to his groin.]

Then, of course, there is the feeling that something sexual must be
something very happy, a marvelous experience. When this develops, I always
see the negative side. There's an expression from Nagurajuna, one of the
Indian masters: "If you itch, it's nice to scratch it. But it's better to
have no itch at all." Similarly with the sexual desire. If it is possible
to be without that feeling, there is much peace. [Smiles.] And without sex,
there's no worry about abortion, condoms, things like that.

So.. sex, fornication and masturbation is basically a sin he's saying, all natural 'god-given' abilities.
And that if someone's beating the shit out of you, you shouldn't respond but should just take it.

Q: In Tibet, from the late 1950's until the early 1970's, one of your
brothers was involved in leading a guerrilla movement against the Chinese.
In fact, the guerrillas were supported by the C.I.A. How did you feel about
that?

A: I'm always against violence. But the Tibetan guerrillas were very
dedicated people. They were willing to sacrifice their own lives for the
Tibetan nation. And they found a way to receive help from the C.I.A. Now,
the C.I.A.'s motivation for helping was entirely political. They did not
help out of genuine sympathy, not out of support for a just cause. That was
not very healthy.

He says this as though it was separate from him, something out of his jurisdiction, like he isn't the supreme leader who would have the authority to halt any violent movements.
Also note how he says the CIA's funds were not 'given out of sympathy for a just cause' - is that not a reference to the armed guerillas being just in their actions?
I should point out I am not a hard-core pacifist and that I think violent means are never an option. I'm simply highlighting the clear leniancy the Dalai Lama adopts in his opinion of violence used by some of his own people despite his supposed core teachings of total peace.

Q: Did you say that killing sometimes is acceptable?

A: Comparatively. In human society, some people do get killed, for a
variety of reasons. However, when you have an established army, and
countries with those armies go to war, the casualties are immense. It's not
one or two casualties, it's thousands. And with nuclear weapons, it's
millions, really millions. For that reason, the arms trade is really
irresponsible. Irresponsible! Global demilitarization is essential.

Interestingly here he is quite vehemently anti-nuclear, however, I now quote from the book Love, Poverty and War by Christopher Hitchens which was published well after this 1993 NY times interview:

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The
Dalai Lama has come out in support of the thermonuclear tests
recently conducted by the Indian state, and has done so in the very
language of the chauvinist parties who now control that state's
affairs. The "developed" countries, he says, must realize
that India is a major contender and should not concern themselves
with its internal affairs. This is a perfectly realpolitik statement,
so crass and banal and opportunist that it would not deserve any
comment if it came from another source. [/FONT]

And regarding links to the japanese cult:

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Shoko Asahara, leader of the Supreme Truth cult in Japan and spreader of sarin nerve gas on the Tokyo subway, donated 45 million rupees, or about 170 million yen (about $1.2 million), to the Dalai Lama and was rewarded for his efforts by several high-level meetings with the divine one.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]


As a side note, he was 'indentified' as the 14th Dalai Lama aged 2, and until he was 15 years old brought up in a massive palace and served by an army of doting monks that I suppose were meant to call him by his new name of [/FONT]Jetsun Jamphel Ngawang Lobsang Yeshe Tenzin Gyatso, or Holy Lord, Gentle Glory, Eloquant, Compassionate, learned defender of the faith, ocean of Wisdom..

Now what child brought up in those bizzare circumstances would be a faultless adult.

 

[Shai Gar]

No, I didn't ask for the latter, I asked for proof that he BACKED and SUPPORTED the criminal you mentioned.
I don't care, and wouldn't that he accepted donations.

 

[Krumplenump]

No, I didn't ask for the latter, I asked for proof that he BACKED and SUPPORTED the criminal you mentioned.
I don't care, and wouldn't that he accepted donations.

To get the sort of proof you're demanding I'll have to book a flight and request an audience with him.

Considering he is such a totem of tranquility and figurehead of such a peace-orientated faith, I find it odd that you find no problem with him accepting donations from violent sources or meant for violent causes. It's perhaps the ultimate hipocracy, especially when the man in question is such a potent global symbol of non-violence himself.

 

[Krumplenump]

http://www.american-buddha.com/shokoasahara.htm

The Dalai Lama and Shoko Asahara

Of course, this must be photoshopped and the info on that link is all heresay with no substance whatsoever.

Apparently they 'fell out' after Shoko started critiscizing Tibetan Buddhism, but what on earth the Dalai Lama was doing meeting him in the first place is a question that needs answering. Answer: Response to 1.2 million USD donation.

 

[Shai Gar]

Not all paths of Buddism accept him as their leader. The oldest form is Theravada, they don't accept him. It is Mahayana that accepts him as their reincarnated leader.

I accept that he has met him several times after that 1.2m donation.
Two questions though:
1. When were the donations made
2. Did he meet with him after the gas attacks, has he expressed support since then?

 

[Krumplenump]

Not all paths of Buddism accept him as their leader. The oldest form is Theravada, they don't accept him. It is Mahayana that accepts him as their reincarnated leader.

I accept that he has met him several times after that 1.2m donation.
Two questions though:
1. When were the donations made
2. Did he meet with him after the gas attacks, has he expressed support since then?

I am not contending with different paths of Buddhism, only with the Dalai Lama.




1. I will look for the exact date, but if it was before or after the gas attack makes little difference, since he voiced support for and encouraged Shoko's cult both pre and post 1995 (see below).

2. Even after the 12 people were killed in 1995, the Dalai Lama continued to voice his approval of Shoko's cults doctrines to the Japanese Kyodo news service. So yes, he expressed support since then.





Shoko's cult (Aum Shinrikyo) was set up in 1987. He claimed that it was "the 14th Dalai Lama who personally led him into the Mahayana tradition of Buddhism" and that he could shorten the time needed for one to become a Buddha from 2,000-3,000 years to just 10 years, urging people to ditch the ascetic practices advocated by Buddhism and follow his sect tenets to merrily achieve longevity and even to become a Buddha. The 14th Dalai Lama kept writing certificates or letters of recommendation for Shoko Asahara to the authorities of Tokyo, hailing Shoko Asahara as "a very capable religious teacher" and hoping the authorities would "allow the Aum Shinrikyo Sect to be exempted from tax payments and propagandize its credo. [religion thinking it deserves special treatment again] The German weekly Focus reported that without the support of the 14th Dalai Lama, it would have been absolutely impossible for Shoko Asahara to build up his sect empire and, within a short period of very few years, gain status as a cult leader in Japan. In other words, it is the 14th Dalai Lama's all-out "support" that turned Shoko Asahara, a swindler, into "a religious teacher".


It was because of the 14th Dalai Lama who persistently supported and trumpeted Shoko Asahara that the Aum Shinrikyo cult could acquire the privilege of "tax exemption" and accumulated funds to bankroll his cruel evil doing against the Japanese people. In the Spring of 1995, Shoko Asahara organized a terrorist attack by discharging poisonous gas in Tokyo's subway, killing 12 people and injuring 5,000 others. The event sparked indignation from the Japanese people. In October of the same year, Shoko Asahara and his die-hard followers stood public trial in a local court of Tokyo and were punished in line with laws.


Even at this moment, the 14th Dalai Lama who claimed to be a "human rights fighter" still spoke plausibly to the Kyodo News Service that Shoko Asahara remained his friend and that he still thought what the Aum Shinrikyo cult preached was in accordance with Buddhist doctrines. It was the support and connivance of the 14th Dalai Lama who took the foe for his friend that made Asahara feel secure in the knowledge that he had strong backing. The evil cult continued to do evils under the guise of constantly-changed names and leaders. Eventually in 1999, the Japanese Senate completed the legislative procedures against evil cults including the Aum Shinrikyo. The Tokyo authorities also took a number of measures to crack down on the leaders of the evil cult.


Aside from the easily questionable ethics of the Dalai Lamas involvement here, I would like to draw your attention to the political element of Buddhism here. The Dalai Lamas mixes politics and religion. ANY religion that pokes it's nose in politics is bound to cause chaos when many of the religion in questions doctrines and tenents are so utterly inane.

 

[Shai Gar]

There you go, now you've provided specific proofs, and I believe you.

 

[bamf]

I don't like money, but I use it because the rules are already set. Money has the potential to influence people to do some things that are out of their character.

I'm fine being in monetary debt, but I refuse to put my soul in debt by letting greed get in the way.

 

[muir]

From what i gather the Tibetans have been: shouldered out of their bussinesses in Lhasa (which have been taken over by Chinese colonists; a process which will only be more entrenched by the Lhasa express railway) and have been subjected to: cultural genocide, public beatings, torture, imprisonment and forced sterilisation.

I'm not sure an argument of 'modernisation' is a sufficient defence to these acts.

 

[Shai Gar]

From what i gather the Tibetans have been: shouldered out of their bussinesses in Lhasa (which have been taken over by Chinese colonists; a process which will only be more entrenched by the Lhasa express railway) and have been subjected to: cultural genocide, public beatings, torture, imprisonment and forced sterilisation.

I'm not sure an argument of 'modernisation' is a sufficient defence to these acts.

+1

 

[SpaceCowgirl]

I don't know enough about the China/Tibet situation to comment on it.

As for the basic question, I can't say I'm on either side. I would give up some of my freedom to continue living comfortably, but if i was offered anything extra in exchange for freedom i just wouldn't feel any need for it. Even with my parents right now I don't listen to a rule that doesn't make sense just so they'll give me more cash, but if they threaten something like not paying for university then fuck what i want to do, i shall do their bidding. That's a pretty immature example but I think it translates into the rest of life.

 

[Morgain]

From what i gather the Tibetans have been: shouldered out of their bussinesses in Lhasa (which have been taken over by Chinese colonists; a process which will only be more entrenched by the Lhasa express railway) and have been subjected to: cultural genocide, public beatings, torture, imprisonment and forced sterilisation.

I'm not sure an argument of 'modernisation' is a sufficient defence to these acts.

+1

my thoughts exactly. But I started to think "what if my view on tibetan life is too romantic. It could be that tibetan life, or the quality of it, has improved due to the chinese invation". I'm almost back at my first thoughts

 

[muir]

+1

my thoughts exactly. But I started to think "what if my view on tibetan life is too romantic. It could be that tibetan life, or the quality of it, has improved due to the chinese invation". I'm almost back at my first thoughts

Yeah I agree its important not to look at the situtation with rose tinted glasses.

There is a lot of justification around the world from larger countries for their agressive acts against their neighbours or others. I think that Tibet has certain valuable deposits as well as oil and water in abundance. The Himilayas are obviously the source of water for many countries and there is also potential for hydroelectric power, so for all these reasons i don't see China giving up Tibet any time soon; its realpolitik.

Often in these cases of 'modernisation' you've got to wonder what sort of changes would have taken place in a country over half a century anyway, if they had been left to their own devices, without foreign middle men creaming off the top.

Concerning issues of freedom v's wealth: are we talking about the decisions we personally make in our lives or are we talking about the decisions governments make?

If we are talking about government curtailment of our freedoms under a guise of 'economic prosperity' or 'security' then I am dead against it. The government are the 'executive committee of the bourgoise'. They are not necessarily looking out for your or my interests they are looking out for the interests of the wealthy. We are just the wage slaves which they must control and keep from rebelling.

If we are talking about individual choices I think the individual needs to make decisions about what they value and what has meaning to them. For example what is the point of being money rich and time poor? Yet many people seem to fall into this trap because their value system tells them that money is a guage of success and that what is important to them is that they show the world how much money they have. I'm pretty sure this strategy leads directly to a mid life crisis.

 

[Shai Gar]

"Often in these cases of 'modernisation' you've got to wonder what sort of changes would have taken place in a country over half a century anyway"

Especially in a nation where the legitimate leader holds a degree in the sciences.

 

[muir]

"Often in these cases of 'modernisation' you've got to wonder what sort of changes would have taken place in a country over half a century anyway"

Especially in a nation where the legitimate leader holds a degree in the sciences.

He might well have been a progressive leader.

 

[Trifoilum]

As for China and Tibet, I am pretty..confused..myself.

As for the topic, tho, I'm safe to say I'm in the first choice at the moment.
But I liked the second choice more.
Nyeh, I want both. Call me greedy.

 

[Krumplenump]

There you go, now you've provided specific proofs, and I believe you.

Great! But if I'd posted all that verbose explanation in my opening post no-one would have read it methinks.