ENTJs (revisited)

[jupiterswoon]

Recent revelations- catching up on a previous thread I started on unpleasant dealings with ENTJs...


So, things I want to focus on in this thread are:

What is a good way to make someone whose dominant function is Te aware of your emotions without putting you in a situation where they will judge you? I don't want to be seen as weak or dismissed because I have feelings.

What would be a good way to be more dominant or assertive in a situation with them, without coming off as emotional? I tend to notice that most of the time- whether consciously or subconsciously, I tend to be more submissive around ENTJs- I doubt they even know the extent to which they make me feel uncomfortable.

Do ENTJs ever crack and show any emotion? Or is it only in self-destructive hedonistic fashion? Are they capable of apologizing or recognizing that they have done something wrong? From my experience their stubbornness intermingled with lack of any emotional intelligence makes me assume that they are not the kind to ever apologize, but could I be wrong?

Would it be best to confront the problem with ENTJs directly, by saying what really bothered me? Or is it best to avoid the situation altogether? I notice that they tend to attract a lot of drama- if the Te is undeveloped and the fourth function of Fi is out of control... It makes me think that it is better to avoid the root of the problem altogether- but how to avoid feeling awkward or uncomfortable around them?

There is something comforting about the fact that they are not as confident as they seem- in my opinion they tend to err on the side of over-confidence, and there is something slightly more human about someone who can recognize that they were wrong.t to which they make me feel uncomfortable.

 

[Brodskizzle]

I think that we really ought to cut them some slack. They have an unpleasantly egotistical bent, particularly the ones I've met, but they're phenomenal at what they do and, yes, they do show emotion. You just need to get close enough and do it mano a mano. And I think you should use emotion on them; it puts them on the defensive, which means you can get what you want.

 

[Jana]

Well, my cousin is ENTJ.
My experiences...
For making connection is good humor. Ni type of humor because it is easy way to win their respect, because by that you can show your inteligence. I think ENTJ could be type who respect strenght in any sense and quick mind is strenght.
And in time if ENTJ is reasonable and you meet in casual situation, you can try to explain yourself in theoretical way. Pull the MBTI if you feel ok with it. ENTJ could hook on it. Imagine: all that Te power of organizing and Ni as support...
In general, I think that ENTJ respect strenght and are afraid of weakness in them or in others. Little honest showing off will do good for connection

 

[Kmal]

@jupiterswoon If you follow socionics, entjs are the supervisor of the infj so

These relations are also asymmetrical as are relations of Benefit. One partner, called the Supervisor, is always in a more favourable position in respect to the other partner who is known as Supervisee.

Relations of Supervision can give the impression that Supervisor is constantly watching every step of the Supervisee. The latter usually feels this control even if the Supervisor does not say or do anything. The explanation for this is that the Supervisee weak point is defenceless against the Supervisor's strong point. This makes the Supervisee nervous and expect the worse.

Although the Supervisor can seem self-satisfied, petty, faultfinding and narrative, the Supervisee pays attention to their actions and considers the Supervisor as consequential. The Supervisee normally wants to gain recognition and commendation from the Supervisor. However, it may seem like the Supervisor always undervalues the abilities of the Supervisee. This stimulates the Supervisee into proving their own worthiness with various actions, yet there is little chance that they will succeed.

The Supervisor sees the Supervisee as quite interesting and capable, but incomplete and therefore in need of some help and advice. The Supervisee does not respond to this aid as expected and this will often increase the Supervisor's attempts to change the Supervisee. Because the Supervisee naturally does not understand what it is that the Supervisor wants from them, this may irritate the Supervisor, who thinks that the Supervisee simply does not want to understand.

In relations of Supervision it may also appear as if the Supervisor patronises the Supervisee, which can be quite obtrusive for the latter. When there are more than two people present, the Supervisee often attempts to release themselves from the control of the Supervisor by starting arguments for the sake of it or by attempting to manoeuvre themselves into the commanding position. Unfortunately, these attempts lead nowhere. The Supervisor may think instead that the Supervisee simply requires more attention.

Supervision partners often look like good friends. The reason for this is that in these relations both partners can sense their social value: the Supervisor as a "guardian angel", without whom the Supervisee will get into trouble, and the Supervisee as the object of attention.

http://www.socionics.com/rel/sp.htm

I grew up with an ENTJ step-dad and an ISFP mom, so i got a double dose of my weak points. Regardless it helped me grow so I'm thankful. If you have any ESFJ friends study your interactions with them because you are their supervior, so they feel around you like you feel around ENTJS. Now, ESFJs supervise ISTJs who are the supervisor of ENTJS! So in terms of psychological advantage it goes ENTJ-INFJ-ESFJ-ISTJ-ENTJ a big circle, so youll need to accept and adapt. Firstly, humble yourself around them and be useful, but dont put your self out there too much, let them come to you. I actually like being around ENTJs, but theyre all good people, nothing to do with their mbti, so that needs to be taken into consideration.

Dont be alarmed at the 3rd paragraph, many times an ESFJ has satisfied me with their actions and proved their worth, so I know there is a way to satisfy your supervisor. This has more to do with your own insecurities than anything, right? What they say should not have that much power over you, but you should listen. They probably like you and you're misinterpreting them. If they are deliberately trying to break you down, that has nothing to do with mbti.

The last bolded paragraph reminds me of my step brother and I when we were growing up. I always felt so silly around him for some reason and sometimes he was harsh, but I let it bring me up instead of down. It always feels like I'm one step behind, so I dont say too much for hes already thought through what I said.

 

[Odyne]

What is a good way to make someone whose dominant function is Te aware of your emotions without putting you in a situation where they will judge you?

You tell them. Let me help you; I don't know what happened, but here's what you can say:

"Hey. I feel that we got off on the wrong foot. I am not entirely sure of what happened, but here's where I stand. [explain yourself without sounding like a victim] I'd love to hear your view on it and, if not get back on good terms, I hope we can at least clear the air."



I am guessing this is a follow up on the rift between you and your boyfriend's sister. If you're not so chummy again, which I honestly doubt you will be, at least it won't be as stressful for you when you're around each other.



We don't view emotions as weakness. It's kind of frustrating that self-claimed NFs tend to make emotions out this way. They are not a weakness and we know that. We don't see it this way. You do.

Ask any ENTJ and they wouldn't tell you it's a weakness. They'd probably tell you that it's a weakness when you fall on your bum because of what you're feeling and not trying to better yourself and get up. That's weakness.

Shit happens and we all get emotional, the secret is to not wallow in your own misery and blame the universe for every little mishap.

Te: Identify problem, find solution. We also recognize that some solutions require more time, the important thing is to remain in the search of a solution and not give up and roll in the mud of self-pity and victim mentality.

What would be a good way to be more dominant or assertive in a situation with them, without coming off as emotional?

I guess the key here is: don't get hysterical, and know when to stop. I've seen NFs pursue people to let them know how they feel and even when they do, they don't stop. You know why? Because talking about their feelings was not what they were looking for, but they were looking for a validation of those feelings.

You let her know where you stand in a calm way and that's it. If she's interested in reestablishing any kind of relationship with you, she will give it a shot and you will know. If not, then move on, because really there is nothing more for you to do.

I tend to notice that most of the time- whether consciously or subconsciously, I tend to be more submissive around ENTJs- I doubt they even know the extent to which they make me feel uncomfortable.

Honestly, that's on you. I doubt most of them even care enough to purposely make someone feel uncomfortable. Same thing goes for the common misconception of us being Control Freaks. We don't care enough. If I want something, I 'll get it myself. I don't need to control anyone or manipulate anyone into making it happen for me. I will earn it with my own efforts.


As for feeling discomfort, if you're confident and comfortable in your own skin, there is no reason for anyone to make you feel otherwise. Here's where you will automatically shun the ENTJ beyond no return when you are not a loved one: expecting others to fix how you feel for you. Why in some cases that's absolutely valid; for example, if she has been disrespectful, then you damn sure demand an apology.

But if it's you feeling unsure of yourself, there is no obligation on her to make you feel sure of yourself. The more you demand it, the more she'll push you away. You're your own person, you're responsible for yourself, you fix it.

Do ENTJs ever crack and show any emotion? Or is it only in self-destructive hedonistic fashion?

Yes, they can show emotion. Yes, they can crack just like everybody else. I am astounded you even asked the question. Also, Te is far from being "hedonistic", Te in its nature is an industrious function.


I don't think the two of you were ever close. If that's the case, then you have no right to ask of vulnerability out of her. That's usually reserved for close people who are trusted by the ENTJ. We tend to handpick them.

Are they capable of apologizing or recognizing that they have done something wrong? From my experience their stubbornness intermingled with lack of any emotional intelligence makes me assume that they are not the kind to ever apologize, but could I be wrong?

I think it's strange that ENTJs are accused of lack of emotional intelligence, yet I see a lot of NFs get tangled in spiral-downs of emotional turmoil and depression. Isn't that a sign of the inability of coping and sorting your own feelings out?

^ I am challenging the thought, not you. If you tend to personally identify with what you are saying, then know that I mean no offense.

I am aware of how people feel 90% of the time. If something wrong happens and it's not my fault, then it's not my problem. If it is, I will go out of my way to fix it or apologize for it. If it's not my fault and it's someone I care about, I will go out of my way to fix it.

It depends on what kind of connection I have with the person.

Would it be best to confront the problem with ENTJs directly, by saying what really bothered me? Or is it best to avoid the situation altogether?

Yes. See first answer. Avoid confrontation only when you really don't care about it and are indifferent towards the person. I think in every conflict that matters, your should at least make sure you've communicated yourself and your side of the story clearly.

There is something comforting about the fact that they are not as confident as they seem- in my opinion they tend to err on the side of over-confidence, and there is something slightly more human about someone who can recognize that they were wrong.t to which they make me feel uncomfortable.

I personally think there is something wrong in wanting others to not be confident so that one can feel comfortable and at ease. Instead of rising up to the par, one searches for the cracks in others to feel okay and "connect"...why not connect through strengths and positive qualities instead? This is how you build a relationship with an ENTJ, btw.

You probably were thinking of "humility", but humility is not about bringing yourself down so that people aren't scared of you.



All of that being said, how an ENTJ treats you strongly depends on the nature of your relationship with them. Personally, if you were dating my brother, I wouldn't necessarily get close to you. Why should I? What did you do to earn what I consider to be a privileged seat in my trusted circle that I cherish and care for very much? (Yes, we cherish and care about people just like you do, that's generally a human trait that everybody else has) I would extend you the courtesy and respect that any stranger would get, perhaps a little more because my own blood (brother) has given you emotional value. But I wouldn't change myself, just so I could pretend we're soul mates and have you as a bridesmaid.





There's a lot of exaggeration and generalization in my post, but I can't do better with so little information and so many assumptions.



My advice is give the benefit of the doubt and don't be so quick to judge. She's being cordial, right? So I guess she has nothing personal against you. Probably the reason why she doesn't want to get back to where you guys were is because she realized you two won't be getting along and would have a hard time understanding each other.


Good luck.

 

[jupiterswoon]

You tell them. Let me help you; I don't know what happened, but here's what you can say:

"Hey. I feel that we got off on the wrong foot. I am not entirely sure of what happened, but here's where I stand. [explain yourself without sounding like a victim] I'd love to hear your view on it and, if not get back on good terms, I hope we can at least clear the air."



I am guessing this is a follow up on the rift between you and your boyfriend's sister. If you're not so chummy again, which I honestly doubt you will be, at least it won't be as stressful for you when you're around each other.

We don't view emotions as weakness. It's kind of frustrating that self-claimed NFs tend to make emotions out this way. They are not a weakness and we know that. We don't see it this way. You do.

Ask any ENTJ and they wouldn't tell you it's a weakness. They'd probably tell you that it's a weakness when you fall on your bum because of what you're feeling and not trying to better yourself and get up. That's weakness.

Shit happens and we all get emotional, the secret is to not wallow in your own misery and blame the universe for every little mishap.

Te: Identify problem, find solution. We also recognize that some solutions require more time, the important thing is to remain in the search of a solution and not give up and roll in the mud of self-pity and victim mentality.

I guess the key here is: don't get hysterical, and know when to stop. I've seen NFs pursue people to let them know how they feel and even when they do, they don't stop. You know why? Because talking about their feelings was not what they were looking for, but they were looking for a validation of those feelings.

You let her know where you stand in a calm way and that's it. If she's interested in reestablishing any kind of relationship with you, she will give it a shot and you will know. If not, then move on, because really there is nothing more for you to do.

Honestly, that's on you. I doubt most of them even care enough to purposely make someone feel uncomfortable. Same thing goes for the common misconception of us being Control Freaks. We don't care enough. If I want something, I 'll get it myself. I don't need to control anyone or manipulate anyone into making it happen for me. I will earn it with my own efforts.

As for feeling discomfort, if you're confident and comfortable in your own skin, there is no reason for anyone to make you feel otherwise. Here's where you will automatically shun the ENTJ beyond no return when you are not a loved one: expecting others to fix how you feel for you. Why in some cases that's absolutely valid; for example, if she has been disrespectful, then you damn sure demand an apology.

But if it's you feeling unsure of yourself, there is no obligation on her to make you feel sure of yourself. The more you demand it, the more she'll push you away. You're your own person, you're responsible for yourself, you fix it.

Yes, they can show emotion. Yes, they can crack just like everybody else. I am astounded you even asked the question. Also, Te is far from being "hedonistic", Te in its nature is an industrious function.
I don't think the two of you were ever close. If that's the case, then you have no right to ask of vulnerability out of her. That's usually reserved for close people who are trusted by the ENTJ. We tend to handpick them.

I think it's strange that ENTJs are accused of lack of emotional intelligence, yet I see a lot of NFs get tangled in spiral-downs of emotional turmoil and depression. Isn't that a sign of the inability of coping and sorting your own feelings out?

^ I am challenging the thought, not you. If you tend to personally identify with what you are saying, then know that I mean no offense.

I am aware of how people feel 90% of the time. If something wrong happens and it's not my fault, then it's not my problem. If it is, I will go out of my way to fix it or apologize for it. If it's not my fault and it's someone I care about, I will go out of my way to fix it.

It depends on what kind of connection I have with the person.

Yes. See first answer. Avoid confrontation only when you really don't care about it and are indifferent towards the person. I think in every conflict that matters, your should at least make sure you've communicated yourself and your side of the story clearly.

I personally think there is something wrong in wanting others to not be confident so that one can feel comfortable and at ease. Instead of rising up to the par, one searches for the cracks in others to feel okay and "connect"...why not connect through strengths and positive qualities instead? This is how you build a relationship with an ENTJ, btw.

You probably were thinking of "humility", but humility is not about bringing yourself down so that people aren't scared of you.



All of that being said, how an ENTJ treats you strongly depends on the nature of your relationship with them. Personally, if you were dating my brother, I wouldn't necessarily get close to you. Why should I? What did you do to earn what I consider to be a privileged seat in my trusted circle that I cherish and care for very much? (Yes, we cherish and care about people just like you do, that's generally a human trait that everybody else has) I would extend you the courtesy and respect that any stranger would get, perhaps a little more because my own blood (brother) has given you emotional value. But I wouldn't change myself, just so I could pretend we're soul mates and have you as a bridesmaid.

There's a lot of exaggeration and generalization in my post, but I can't do better with so little information and so many assumptions.

My advice is give the benefit of the doubt and don't be so quick to judge. She's being cordial, right? So I guess she has nothing personal against you. Probably the reason why she doesn't want to get back to where you guys were is because she realized you two won't be getting along and would have a hard time understanding each other.

Good luck.

Wow, and thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for. It's not that I blame her, and certainly I did have misconceptions- the first thread I made on this was too personal, and I think it tended to attract the wrong kinds of responses. Certain things did make me angry, and that was a long time ago. But, a big part of the reason I am on here is so that I can learn to understand people better and improve interactions with different types.

I don't want to come off as though I don't appreciate ENTJs and that I don't understand their strengths, because I do. I just don't understand their inner workings, and that's why I had a hard time imagining them ever being vulnerable. It's not that I want to humiliate them or see them crack, but that I didn't think it was possible for them.

I think you hit on a nerve there too when you said that it is not her responsibility to change the way that I feel, and that would be something that might alienate her. After she judged me at the time, all I have ever wanted since then was just some validation, or some form of acceptance that she respects me. I guess that might be asking too much, and from your point of view, I can see why. You are probably right, that just in the fact that she comes around, means that she probably thinks things are fine.

We were acquaintances in high school. We were not close, but we were closer than we are now. All that I want is to not feel like I am being judged. I think that's why I feel more submissive when I am around her. I am much more hardwired to pay attention to approval or disapproval than she is, and you are right, she is probably not even aware of any of this- it's just feelings of resentment and inadequacy that I haven't been able to get over.

Thank you.