[INFJ] ENTP guy absolutely crazy about INFJ girl and need your help! Grateful for insights

Oh the Argument ad Hominem. Sign of a feeble mind who can't support his own arguments.

Don't worry. I know exactly what my strengths and weaknesses are, and this is not one of weaknesses.

I think you'd do well to read what I wrote in the spirit it's written. You have already decided that I am a bad person even before you objectively considered my input. That is the wrong order to do things in.
 
Sometimes I wonder if we're speaking the same language?

"But he's not going to get to know her well, if she is the only person he knows. " OK. So essentially, you are saying that all women are the same, so the OP must go out and make the same mistake over and over again with other women before he gets to know this one well? I don't know where you developed your logic and rhetoric skills, but that is one damned assumption to make.

Your advice is based on hearsay and your own failed experiences. I think the OP should ask the woman directly exactly what she thinks. Yes, imagine that, asking the subject in question what she really feels and thinks instead of a bunch of people on the internet assuming they know her well.

Our definition of "desperate" is different. To you being "desperate" is showing strong interest in a woman and pursuing her. I hate to break it to you, but most women prefer this sort of man. Women prefer the man who is the go-getter, knows what he wants and how to get it. A man who does this is seen as "confident" not desperate. Every woman is going to struggle initially when a man shows interest in her, it's because she wants to be convinced that he wants her. Women prefer this type of man over a passive-aggressive one who plays games and dates around to compensate for his fragile ego.

To me "desperate" is a guy who feels so insecure about not knowing if a woman is interested in him or not, that he goes out and fishes a large pool of women to try to gain confidence with women he isn't as interested in. It's the American guy who doesn't approach the woman at a bar he is really interested in, and tries to hit on her friend. That is typical American guy behaviour- dishonest and cowardly.

I prefer British men because they are taught to be direct. "I'm not seeing anyone else, are you?" "I just want you to know that you're the only woman I can see myself with in 20 years" "Hunter, I want to know how you see us down the line." If a man is straightforward, he wins so much of my respect, because it shows that he is confident and aggressive and understands what he wants and how to get it and also know how to articulate it. That is such a turn on.

As opposed to American men. "I don't know what I want." "I don't know what I'm doing." "I hate my exes." "I hate all women" "Women are all bitches" "Women are always looking for a bigger and better deal" "Women are all golddiggers" etc. Then these are the same men who go around trying to sleep with every woman in town, then spend all their time hanging out with strippers to gain some "confidence". It's just such a turn-off.

Also if some guy tries to keep touching me when I barely know him, he will receive a karate punch in the gut. So your kino-theory only works if the couple has already been intimate.

Of course, there are American men, those rare breed who are exempt from this wide pictoral sketch- but most likely they are most likely older (50+) and not the current Gen Y or Millenial generation of American Men who were bred to be insolent, misogynistic and wantonly lacking in conversation skills.

I am greatly offended by your deeply disturbing ignorance.
 
Don't worry. I know exactly what my strengths and weaknesses are, and this is not one of weaknesses.

I think you'd do well to read what I wrote in the spirit it's written. You have already decided that I am a bad person even before you objectively considered my input. That is the wrong order to do things in.

Perhaps if you read what I wrote, you would see that your arguments are pretty weak and lacking in substance. You can theorise all you want, but when you can't back up a statement and instead resort to Argument ad Hominems, it makes you look pretty weak. Be careful in there in your glass house. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen
 
I'm not gonna bother, Hunter.

Example: I wrote "our friend is desperate". From that you extrapolated a definition of desperate you believe I invoked and it had nothing to do with what I wrote. It was based on some projection of yours on who you think I am as a person - a person you clearly dislike - and you go from there.

Even if I do write the truth, and even if I do write what I honestly think and even if I do write what science says to be true, you're going to misconstrue what I am saying. I don't know if it's deliberate or you're actually just mad about something we don't know, but in both instances arguing with you is a total waste of time for me - and worse - for all the readers.

Really... cool down, and re-read what I wrote tomorrow and use your Ni to think about how it could possibly be true.
 
I'm not gonna bother, Hunter.

Example: I wrote "our friend is desperate". From that you extrapolated a definition of desperate you believe I invoked and it had nothing to do with what I wrote. It was based on some projection of yours on who you think I am as a person - a person you clearly dislike - and you go from there.

Even if I do write the truth, and even if I do write what I honestly think and even if I do write what science says to be true, you're going to misconstrue what I am saying. I don't know if it's deliberate or your actually mentally deficient in some way, but in both instances arguing with you is a total waste of time for me - and worse - for all the readers.

Really... cool down, and re-read what I wrote tomorrow and use your Ni to think about how it could possibly be true.

The only one losing your cool is you :) I'm not attacking you, am I?

Just because you can't clearly define "desperate" doesn't mean I have a problem understanding you. You need to clarify what you mean, and it's obvious that you can't so you're resorting to name-calling.
 
The only one losing your cool is you :) I'm not attacking you, am I?

Just because you can't clearly define "desperate" doesn't mean I have a problem understanding you. You need to clarify what you mean, and it's obvious that you can't so you're resorting to name-calling.

I can't be responsible if you're not willing to extend me the courtesy of understanding what I wrote in the spirit it's written.

You have a chip on your shoulder for some reason, and you project like it's your job.

I have no problem with vulnerability, as indicated in the earlier post. But you ignore that and make up some bizarre story about what I think, and like a good propaganda movie it's as unflattering as you can make it - distorting what I really wrote. You've done this multiple times. That is manipulation, in case you didn't know. You'd make an excellent political consultant, I am sure.

Like I said, waste of time.
 
From the only perspective that is available and that is yours ; it does not seem like she is interested or like you in the way perhaps you fancy her. BUT I could be wrong because it's hard to give advice on one perspective when the whole situation is based on two sides. I think there is one to two scenarios possible out of this. First she likes you enough but not in the way you prefer; in which case you need to investigate why you like this girl who cannot return the same type of affection. Secondly; it could be the famous INFJ female fickleness and testing. if this applies than you need to devote a lot of time and patience in wooing her to help her open up. It's good that she already feels secure with you; which is HUGE for infj females. That could be a nice indication of feelings blossoming for her. But it will most likely go at the rate of a snail's pace and you have to learn to accept that.I think it is very sincere and open that you opened up about your feelings but regardless of type; every girl/woman knows that they cannot go too long without making a decision to reciprocate or reject a situation as this and infj females is no exception. It would help to also give yourself time and not be soo available to her; as you also need to get something out of this or it is pointless to pursue someone who is just going to stay closed as a clam and that's what she sounds like. If she cannot reciprocate some type pf straightforward feelings about all this and just having you string along; i say you wasting your time.

You also didn't say how old you guys are; whether this is mature type of courting or puppy love, etc which will play important part to the development or lack of development in this union. Younger infj females will be more guarded due to inexperience so i guess it all depends.
 
I can't be responsible if you're not willing to extend me the courtesy of understanding what I wrote in the spirit it's written.

You have a chip on your shoulder for some reason, and you project like it's your job.

I have no problem with vulnerability, as indicated in the earlier post. But you ignore that and make up some bizarre story about what I think, and like a good propaganda movie it's as unflattering as you can make it - distorting what I really wrote. You've done this multiple times. That is manipulation, in case you didn't know. You'd make an excellent political consultant, I am sure.

Like I said, waste of time.

We're not talking about your vulnerability. I called you out on the fact that you seem to know what the OP's lady and making extrapolations based on very little data. Instead of going directly to the source of the information- the lady, your advice was for the OP to start fishing a large pool of women to develop confidence To me, that sounds incredibly desperate.

Think of it this way Paideia. You're the CEO of a corporation. You're not sure that another corporation wants to make a deal. Instead of engaging and wooing this corporation with strong strategic tactics, you're going to go out and do the same lukewarm thing to a whole bunch of other corporations.

This is going to make it look like you're desperately looking for a deal with just about anyone, losing your exclusivity status to the majority of corporations and they're not going to want to enter a deal with you. When you target the right corporation, you have to have a strategy, otherwise you're just bait to a bunch of sharks.
 
Paideia and HunterO, you guys have passed the point of being helpful to the OP many posts back and have instead decided to turn this particular virtual space into your venue for some type of spitting match.

Paideia, it seems like you think the OP's situation is becoming too subjective and singular and you suggest that he should step back and mingle with other women to broaden his perspective. This sounds like your extroverted intuition's propensity to compare and contrast, which might be a useful method in most objective pursuits, but the issue here is that relationships are anything but objective, nor does it seem productive to treat them so. In other words, you can't objectify the relationship without objectifying the person, and the last thing a woman wants (especially an INFJ, I would imagine) in a relationship is to be treated or seen as just one of your many options or pursuits (one object among many). Seeing or pursuing other women would do just that, tell the INFJ that she is indeed not personal, special, or worth committing to in his eyes (or cause serious blowback if she doesn't know and finds out after the fact). I'm afraid that in the act of widening the pursuer's perspective, he'd be devaluing the target of his pursuit, implicitly if not explicitly. This could create a scenario where the INFJ actively tries to re-establish that value status, but it would be for all the wrong reasons. This is essentially what HunterO was trying to point out. Relationships are inherently subjective, so the only viable solution will come from personally evaluating whether it works or not from within, as there is no objective standard or approach to be followed. (side note: if you say you're done with a conversation, have said goodbye, or that it's not worth you're time, continuing to participate is a direct contradiction to all three. Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine to say one thing and do another.)

HunterO, what some here are reacting to is your stereotyping of American males as being a certain way in regard to relationships. I can see how your extroverted thinking might be prompting you to categorize American males as such if you're getting your information from American TV, but I'd go as far as to say that what you see on TV reflects a minority and is not exclusive to the U.S. I think it would be safer to look at how certain personality types tend to approach relationships and perhaps make a case that America contains more of that particular personality type than other countries, but you'd still likely be looking at a minority from my experience as an American male.

crazyabouther, if I were you, I'd just ask her if she has feelings for you. It sounds scary, but only because the answer might be no and the awkwardness that might follow. However, I've really found that this is the only way for an NT to read the situation appropriately without making an ass of themselves, especially with an INFJ (and further speculation would only net diminishing returns). They keep their inner world locked up tight and can be very patient in its revelation, which means you might not know how she feels about you today until 6 months from now, and by then she could feel differently. INFJs like directness and honesty as long as it doesn't cross the line of invasive, and by the way you describe the situation, at this point the question would seem more legitimate than invasive. If she says that she does have feelings for you, then you can ask whether or not that translates into a future between the two of you. Just be aware (which I'm sure you are) that if she says no, that could potentially destroy whatever pseudo-relationship you have going on now. In my view, the potential sacrifice is worth the potential truth and clarity. Or in Matrix terms, red pill or blue pill.
 
Paideia and HunterO, you guys have passed the point of being helpful to the OP many posts back and have instead decided to turn this particular virtual space into your venue for some type of spitting match.

Paideia, it seems like you think the OP's situation is becoming too subjective and singular and you suggest that he should step back and mingle with other women to broaden his perspective. This sounds like your extroverted intuition's propensity to compare and contrast, which might be a useful method in most objective pursuits, but the issue here is that relationships are anything but objective, nor does it seem productive to treat them so. In other words, you can't objectify the relationship without objectifying the person, and the last thing a woman wants (especially an INFJ, I would imagine) in a relationship is to be treated or seen as just one of your many options or pursuits (one object among many). Seeing or pursuing other women would do just that, tell the INFJ that she is indeed not personal, special, or worth committing to in his eyes (or cause serious blowback if she doesn't know and finds out after the fact). I'm afraid that in the act of widening the pursuer's perspective, he'd be devaluing the target of his pursuit, implicitly if not explicitly. This could create a scenario where the INFJ actively tries to re-establish that value status, but it would be for all the wrong reasons. This is essentially what HunterO was trying to point out. Relationships are inherently subjective, so the only viable solution will come from personally evaluating whether it works or not from within, as there is no objective standard or approach to be followed. (side note: if you say you're done with a conversation, have said goodbye, or that it's not worth you're time, continuing to participate is a direct contradiction to all three. Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine to say one thing and do another.)

HunterO, what some here are reacting to is your stereotyping of American males as being a certain way in regard to relationships. I can see how your extroverted thinking might be prompting you to categorize American males as such if you're getting your information from American TV, but I'd go as far as to say that what you see on TV reflects a minority and is not exclusive to the U.S. I think it would be safer to look at how certain personality types tend to approach relationships and perhaps make a case that America contains more of that particular personality type than other countries, but you'd still likely be looking at a minority from my experience as an American male.

crazyabouther, if I were you, I'd just ask her if she has feelings for you. It sounds scary, but only because the answer might be no and the awkwardness that might follow. However, I've really found that this is the only way for an NT to read the situation appropriately without making an ass of themselves, especially with an INFJ (and further speculation would only net diminishing returns). They keep their inner world locked up tight and can be very patient in its revelation, which means you might not know how she feels about you today until 6 months from now, and by then she could feel differently. INFJs like directness and honesty as long as it doesn't cross the line of invasive, and by the way you describe the situation, at this point the question would seem more legitimate than invasive. If she says that she does have feelings for you, then you can ask whether or not that translates into a future between the two of you. Just be aware (which I'm sure you are) that if she says no, that could potentially destroy whatever pseudo-relationship you have going on now. In my view, the potential sacrifice is worth the potential truth and clarity. Or in Matrix terms, red pill or blue pill.

Mithrandir, you're so charmingly rational! Thank you for that analysis. Very spot on. BTW my knowledge of American men is derived from the time I lived in LA. :)
 
Interesting. Ask her to change, and she will. How so I don't know, but she'll try.

And in the time you lived in LA, you must have met some characters. :P

Silly people, said person doesn't want facts, instead said person wants an answer. A specific answer. One that cannot possibly fail. One that is quite simply Ni. Whoo! Dualism is fun like Dualingo isn't, at least to myself.
 
Dear [MENTION=11734]Paideia[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10364]HunterO[/MENTION],

As much as your comments were helpful at the beginning, I'm sorry to see that you two have completely engaged with each other and taken over this thread!

Thanks everyone for your insights and to you [MENTION=12939]Mithrandir[/MENTION]. I wanted to share some updates and to see what else you guys think; and if someone can suggest more ideas.

For people who asked, we are both in our late 20s, and live on campus in Europe; but we come from Asian roots.

UPDATES:

1. She admitted to having feelings for me and flirting with me in the past.
2. She enjoys my company and cares about me a lot.
3. I straight up asked her out to dinner-- she said no, then yes, then no and now a not sure.
4. What contributes to this confusion, is a lot of high school drama that involves our small community where we live; and the initial girl I was dating for a month.
5. She blames herself a lot for why things ended with me and the other girl.

What to do? :(
 
For people who asked, we are both in our late 20s, and live on campus in Europe; but we come from Asian roots.

UPDATES:

1. She admitted to having feelings for me and flirting with me in the past.
2. She enjoys my company and cares about me a lot.
3. I straight up asked her out to dinner-- she said no, then yes, then no and now a not sure.
4. What contributes to this confusion, is a lot of high school drama that involves our small community where we live; and the initial girl I was dating for a month.
5. She blames herself a lot for why things ended with me and the other girl.

What to do? :(

1 and 2... GOOD

4 and 5... can be fixed, with time. reassure her that she is special and your previous relationship was a. not important b. wasn't in your destiny c. wasn't her fault, and she meant to be your soul mate

3. choose something else, not so formal, other than dinner. ten pin bowling. movies. kayaking. picnic (hope it's not too cold where you are). go have fun. relationships are not always about dating, but about the time you spend in each others' company. just remove any negativity and make it a positive experience for you both. good luck!
 
Just to update you all:

Things are going well, we like each other and are seeing how best to 'frame' what we have. I'm very happy, and there is still lot of work to be done.

Totally worth it. She is absolutely wonderful :) Thank you all for listening to me, and I appreciate your time spent responding to me.
 
Just to update you all:

Things are going well, we like each other and are seeing how best to 'frame' what we have. I'm very happy, and there is still lot of work to be done.

Totally worth it. She is absolutely wonderful :) Thank you all for listening to me, and I appreciate your time spent responding to me.
that is awesome, a lot of us here would be glad to hear it's going well! enjoy your time and don't take each other for granted. time is too short and love is too scarce in this world.
 
Hello
Hello everyone,

I have created this account and profile just to understand this INFJ lady. I'm and ENTP guy and I have been crazy about her for a few months, and have been doing everything in my power to make things happen. After reading many posts on the internet, I realize how glacial things can go with her. I am okay with that, but lately I have been going a little mad trying to figure out whether or not she is interested. So would love to hear what anyone can suggest about my predicament. I apologize if this is a little long.

Here are the facts:
1. We had taken MBTIs and are confirmed ENTP and INFJ.
2. She knows I like her-- I told her over a month ago, and she did not reject me. I know the INFJ type looks long-term, and she said the same-- that there is no point in having a short term affair. She does not see the value in people just getting together for the fun of it, and hooking up. I have no such intentions with her anyway.
3. I reassured her that I was looking for something serious as well, and that she can take all the time she wants. I left it at that, because I did not want to pressure her into something.
4. Since then, we have hung out several times alone. I've put my arms around her a couple of times and held hands. I did not try to kiss her, as I did not want to scare her or put pressure on her.
5. She never initiates a single thing. Every single time, I have to message or make plans to do something. She usually accepts.
6. I'm very sick and tired of having to text her all the time. She is terrible at texts, hardly holds conversation and is fine without any contact at all for a week or more. I go crazy during these phases and give in to my urge to text her or call.
7. Recently I had a serious family emergency, and was in quite a traumatic state. After my family and friends, she was the first person I called. She was not particularly reassuring, and hardly checked in on me later. That sucked.
8. Even after my emergency, she did not particularly get in touch and thought it best to leave me alone.
9. She has never said a single thing that can be interpreted as romantic.
10. She has mentioned how she how secure or comfortable she feels around me.
11. She never initiates a single thing, and I hate it. I am not sure to what extent, it is my ego but I cannot constantly chase her forever. Always initiating sucks, ESPECIALLY when there is hardly any reciprocity.
12. I've thought several times to call her out on it, but have held back lest I screw things up.

PS:
Before I told her I liked her, I was seeing someone else for 2 months and she is aware of this. I ended things with that girl as I liked the INFJ and did not want to be a two timing asshole. She is aware things are over, but I think it may have had an effect on this?

Questions:
What do I do?
I am so sad, and so crazy about her. Being hopelessly in love all the time, I can already picture our lives together. I hate that, but it is me.
She knows I really like her, and I have gone out of my way several times to do nice things for her. Don't think she has reciprocate that at all.
Does she like me at all?
Should I just move on with my life?
Should I ask her straight up where she sees things after a couple of months? Maybe before Valentine's day.

Thanks a lot guys! As an ENTP I need answers and solutions, and so I feel that if she just tells me she is not interested, I can start putting the pieces of my heart back together...
Hello INFJ here,

Every INFJ is unique so I don't know if this applies to her as well. Do you know her enough to see if she's grappling with something? Like failed relationships? Trust issues? Or a bad home life?

Honestly, if she didn't like you, she would have said "No" clearly. I personally hate stringing people along. The best way to handle an INFJ you don't understand is to invite her over to a private place (your place or her place or somewhere private and comfortable), get food and drinks, and talk it over. Just be gentle with it and ask her in a calm manner.

And ask her to be truthful to you and tell her what you've been feeling. A calm confrontation usually does the trick for us. Although it would make us comfortable. If she's okay with you, you can hold her hand and reassure her if she starts getting anxious. One wrong thing people do with us is that when we go through a confrontation, I usually need a reassuring hand or sign that everything's going to be okay on the other team or I get really anxious or stressed out and distance myself. We have a general desire not to burden others with our existence.

I am always scared to initiate especially with people I'm not sure how I stand with. I tend to overthink alot of things. I think the lack of "label" is also in the way or maybe, is she friends with your previous relationship? Maybe she feels guilty about it?

Just talk it over with her first. That's the best solution. I hope you guys work out. Love doesn't really come along for us INFJs.
 
Love doesn't really come along for us INFJs.
  1. Those who type as INFJ are no less, and no more, suited to know the grace that is Love than any other.
  2. Love doesn’t come along for anyone. Love is a willful choice and a willful action. Each and every must decide to live their life in accordance with the virtue. In so doing, they are redeemed, for they have changed their Self, and in turn, the whole of the World.
Blesséd Be,
Ian
 
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