Fate or Free Will

INFJesus said:
Are our lives predestined
Or is life just a series of random events that we attempt to give meaning to?

I seem to be stuck in the middle on this one.

Part of me always looks for meaning and sees synchronicity and connected patterns. I believe everything happens for a reason.

But at my very core I fear this is all just some random accident and there is no meaning to anything,save for what we make of it.

I would love to hear your opinions on this.
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The main point is - You can't know the future (because humans can only perceive so much)...so in the end, whether it's preordained or not, you can only deal with (simple) things we can perceive with our limited senses and thoughts.

Whatever god exists (if at all) we will never be able to understand it, so live life. That's my philosophy at the moment.
 
Soulful said:
I believe life is predominantly about exercising our free will. I think there is a degree of predisposition, but not predetermination or predestination.

To use an analogy, imagine we are each cross-country walkers, and all we do in life is walk. We may be wired (predisposed) to walk north, and that's what feels most comfortable to us, most inherent, but we have the free will to alter the course at any moment and walk in another direction.

We start out with a direction in life, but by no means do we have to keep it. So I believe both are present, but free will has greater dominance than predisposition. It 'trumps' predisposition, so to speak.

I think the purpose of life is growth and learning, so that is the reason for all situations. Having said that, I think everything does happen for a reason but that reason is neither static nor singular. A situation has the potential to mean a variety of things to one person depending on how we decide to let it impact us. I don't believe events happen randomly. There are probably multiple layers of meaning to each situation. We probably tend to grasp a few of them, based on our current level of understanding. So it's probably both. I don't think we're fully pawns nor do I think we're meaningless dust particles floating around. I think trying to ascertain ALL meaning is like a fish trying to figure out why someone is tapping on the fish-tank. Most people simply don't have the perspective. Much like the difference in view while being at the base of the mountain versus partway to the peak. However, I think there is reason and purpose to being alive, and we make sense of what we can while we're alive (hopefully). Hopefully, the more consciously we live, the more we evolve through this process, and expand our perspective and ability to 'see more' to each situation and consider different meanings. The greater this ability, the more likely it is that we'll be able to make life go smoothly for us, climb out of ditches if we've been thrown in them (ex. as children), or climb out of existing potholes. I.e. The more effectively we'll be able to exercise our free will to meet our desired outcomes, regardless of predisposition.
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NeverAmI said:
I believe we are on Earth to learn lessons, I have always felt this way. That we have to struggle to become better. I believe in a conscious entity beyond the confines of earth and the physical realm.

I believe there is something bigger in life than being "monkeys" or a "hunk of meat" or simply surviving.

Humanity is naturally flawed. Some argue that humans are the only beings on the planet that are flawed. We recognize these flaws, our impulses to spread like cancer and consume without care. I believe we are meant to overcome, to understand, respect, and work with the planet which gives us life. If we can move to other planets, great, but for the moment we really need to take a step back and open our eyes.

Life is complex, we all have down times and issues. Ultimately, I believe we are here to help one another, to discipline ourselves, and to rise above the animals we are so fond of calling ourselves. Whether this is directed by a conscious entity that we cannot see, I do not know. I feel that there is, or perhaps I only WANT to feel that there is, or I feel that there simply cannot be nothing.

Regardless, we have to move past ourselves and see the beauty of the world, in others, in nature, and even in our advancements. Life has always been about struggle, perseverence, striving to overcome what makes us apathetic and unwilling to help. At least in my mind.

I believe we have free will with expectations.
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Both of these are fantastic posts.. both different, yet both right on as far as I am concerned.

I am going to have trouble sleeping tonight trying to sort all this out.:m097:
 
INFJesus said:
Are our lives predestined
Or is life just a series of random events that we attempt to give meaning to?

I seem to be stuck in the middle on this one.

Part of me always looks for meaning and sees synchronicity and connected patterns. I believe everything happens for a reason.

But at my very core I fear this is all just some random accident and there is no meaning to anything,save for what we make of it.

I would love to hear your opinions on this.
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First, how does free will even connect to things being "meaningful?" What is it to be meaningful?
 
Duty said:
First, how does free will even connect to things being "meaningful?" What is it to be meaningful?
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Free will doesn't, but fate does.

For example, what if you need to learn a lesson and you meet someone, and through your interactions they teach you that lesson.
you could argue you were fated and that lesson was the meaning behind your meeting them in the 1st place.
 
INFJesus said:
Free will doesn't, but fate does.

For example, what if you need to learn a lesson and you meet someone, and through your interactions they teach you that lesson.
you could argue you were fated and that lesson was the meaning behind your meeting them in the 1st place.
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So if we have free will there would be no meaning? Is there only meaning in a deterministic causal-set?

I had another question too, it is also the more important one philosophically: What does it mean to be meaningful? Define meaning. I have a hard time talking about something when I don't understand what it is I'm talking about.
 
We're in a small wooden boat on a vast and rugged ocean, we don't have sails but we have a rudder. The wind and currents push and pull us but if we hold the rudder tight and true we just might get an advantageous angle out of all the pushing and pulling overall.
 
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free will and fate! fate due to your upbringing and circumstances and free will due to decisions you have in life. It is really how you view it. Everyone will only follow 1 path in life out of a infinity alternate paths, I had a 3 hour conversation with an INTP friend of mine on this. In the end does it really matter? we concluded its a mixture of both in our opinion, as in your upbringing and circumstances influences your decisions so were they ever going to be yours?

the definitions of free will need to be clearly defined everyone will have a different opinion and I can see a HUGE debate coming! which I will have nothing to do with because In my opinion this question is irrelevant!

Just have fun in life!
 
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Duty said:
So if we have free will there would be no meaning? Is there only meaning in a deterministic causal-set?

I had another question too, it is also the more important one philosophically: What does it mean to be meaningful? Define meaning. I have a hard time talking about something when I don't understand what it is I'm talking about.
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No and yes. I am using meaning in the sense that if things are fated then everything would happen for a reason and ergo the reason would have meaning in the grand scheme of fate.
Free will can also have meaning but that would be only in the context of those affected by it and what value or meaning they would choose to give it.

Meaningful. I would say only I can qualify what is meaningful to me in the context of my own life and experiences. Unless of course, again there is a plan already laid out, then what meaning I might attribute to it would be pointless beyond my own interpenetration because the real meaning was already predetermined.

I understand my thoughts are abstract and although they make sense to me, articulation is not always one of my strong points.
this is where Vulcan mind melds would come in handy, don't you think?
 
smiffy said:
free will and fate! fate due to your upbringing and circumstances and free will due to decisions you have in life. It is really how you view it. Everyone will only follow 1 path in life out of a infinity alternate paths, I had a 3 hour conversation with an INTP friend of mine on this. In the end does it really matter? we concluded its a mixture of both in our opinion, as in your upbringing and circumstances influences your decisions so were they ever going to be yours?

the definitions of free will need to be clearly defined everyone will have a different opinion and I can see a HUGE debate coming! which I will have nothing to do with because In my opinion this question is irrelevant!

Just have fun in life!
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This is how I have fun in life.. lol
 
“Life is like a game of cards. The hand you are dealt is determinism; the way you play it is free will.”

See signature for variation on the same.
 
I don't believe that predestination hinders free will.

Because of who we are and the things we have already experienced, we will always ultimately end up taking one certain course of reaction, and in that way, a large part of our future circumstances is determined. (Part of it is also dependent on others' actions/reactions.)

I think any sort of deity's (God, Fate, Fortune; call it what you will) control over the fate of the world would lie more in who people are and why they do the things they do. I think it's much more complex than the traditional idea of predestination, like God is playing with a Polly Pocket playset of sorts.

I am more inclined to believe in a sort of soft determinism. I am an idealist and a realist; I believe in both fate and in "happy accidents" simultaneously. What can I say? I'm a paradox.
 
I believe in fate absolutely. What's meant to be will always be. Even the little things in life, such as [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsvAj6qfmFQ"]this[/ame]
 
I'm severely disappointed at the lack of Rush, guys. :(
So I'll do the honors of adding the obvious.
[youtube]OnxkfLe4G74[/youtube]

Personally, I rest on a plain of a combination of the two. There are some things that will happen that are completely by chance as far as we are concerned, and entirely out of our control. Likewise, there are plenty of moments where I think that it's possible to alter the outcome by choice.

Edit: After listening through it again, I remembered that I'm not such a fan of Rush as I was when I was younger.
 
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I think all physically possible possibilities exist in an infinite number of parallel universes and so on this "multiverse" scale things are predetermined. The quantum unpredictability of the individual universes leaves no room for free will, the opposite of determinism is NOT Free Will, it is randomness, both of which are incompatible with Free Will.

And thus I Do not believe in Free Will.
 
as an agnostic,i believe that we are the creator of own reality....there are no basis that our
life is predestined...even in Christianity, Yahweh even told his disciple that people have the right to chose bad/good...manifestation of life is only upon us not by others.......
 
Free will is grossly over-rated, in the western world, that's for sure, because it keeps those with the bigger stacks in the comfortable position of telling others that it's all up to them. However, economists already got past that bunk.

Meanwhile, free will is learned. Just like the so called critical thinking. It's a specific bias in how we process information, that depends on how we are taught about it. The whole indoctrination begins with being told that we are "I" and some name, and so on. If you do this to animals, i.e. primates, they gradually build a sense for such "I" too, but if you don't, they don't.

So this whole false dichotomy about free will and fate entirely belongs in the realms of psychopathy - neither of these things exist. They are the product of brains, obsessed with purpose, seeing purpose and destination in everything around them, when - things - just - happen.

Life happens. There's no fate, and there's no free will; unless we teach each other so.
 
I was a Determinist since I was very young, but recently I've been reading up on the many worlds theory and I don't have a complete enough understanding of physics to decide what I believe is true. This is not totally relevant though, since either way I don't believe in free will.

It doesn't matter if our thought processes were predestined or randomly occurred. Regardless of the details of how events come to pass, in our perception we decide our own actions and create our own meaning. Everything else is interesting, but won't change how I live my life in any way.
 
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