Fe Traps.

grapefruit said:
So in a way, you don't care about peoples' emotions. You would rather that people feel anxious or embarrassed that they have annoyed you than take a few seconds to speak to them.
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I think other people are responsible for their own emotions. I think it is pure conjecture that other people would feel anxious or embarrassed and I believe that has more to do with their own inner workings than me anyway. Given the context of life in general, you are bound to annoy someone sometime anyway. Why should I deprive you of the experience? (jokes)

I am exceedingly polite given the context of the situation...work vs. outside work. I am well aware of social structure and am relatively adept socially. However, if I don't want to be bugged and don't want to speak to you, I will attempt to make it clear before you engage me by my body language and closed off demeanor. While my statements are relatively tongue in cheek regarding acting annoyed, it does hold true to a certain extent. I remember reading on another thread (can't remember where....) that interupting an INTJ in thought with something considered frivolous was akin to interupting someone having sex--of course they are annoyed. Made me laugh but holds a bit of truth.
 
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InvisibleJim said:
Yes, blistering sarcasm, annoyance, anger and other such temperamental shifts are obvious to anyone who observes the self.



I notice how other people are 'displaying' emotions, but that doesn't mean that I believe that what they show is 'true' as it were. Contrary to this, I can be remarkably receptive to emotive pleas from others when I feel I have nothing to lose apart from my own emotional well being which is something that is a totally valid thing to override when it is opinion rather than having solid consequence.

The problem with Fe PoLR, if you don't show us you believe or you care enough to have emotion and show us it is 'true' then we don't believe it is there. The other problem with Fe PoLR, we don't much care for the Fe traps, we don't gradually drop nice happy social hints around the place.

In short, Fe traps, not something the Fe PoLR sees. If we are in one, such as group dynamics attempting to 'shackle' us we will often just smash it up in a social sense and care not for the consequences.

We are direct, we are righteous, we are zombie proof.



I disagree, generally (no true scotsman aside) INTJ threads go like this:

(INTJ 1) As an INTJ I do this, results in this.

(INTJ 3) 2nd Post: Yes.

no need for 3rd post, thread ends.
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So you think that peoples' emotions are fake, or that they are trying to trap you? I am not asking this to be offensive. It is just that Intjs are so rare, and I want to understand them. Though it may happen, the Infjs I know don't seem to want to trap people with their emotions. The emotions we feel are very personal and overwhelming, which makes them difficult to control. I'm sure that many Infjs will agree when I say that there are often times when we want to, but are unable to control our emotions. For the most part, people can read us like books, and it doesn't seem to me that much can be done about it.
 
technics said:
When someone uses that kind of undertone I'd probably snub that person by replying "Alright then I won't". But if someone asks in a straightforward manner I'd probably do it. Like that one time when someone offered to pay when he was expecting me to counter his offer. I said "Alright, you pay".



When I use the you don't have to thing, I mean that I really want you to do it, but I will accept it if you don't. If I don't plan to give you a choice about doing something, you can be rest assured you won't have one. I would explain that you would do what I needed whether you wanted to or not, and my persistence generally ensures this is true. There are cases when I would have no qualms about engaging in such forceful behavior. In fact, depending on the situation, my ethics might even support such behavior because I believe in doing what is necessary to support what I believe is best for a group or individual. I don't act this way all the time, but when I do it means reasoning with you is either too difficult for me, or cannot be done in a timely manner. I can sense this. Hard to pin down, but I think it's not because of a sign, but because of a lack of sign. You must have met some pretty indecent Infjs because most Infjs, myself included, seem to hold trust and commitment in high regard.



INFJs can be made to go against their beliefs without them even realizing it.
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Can you provide an example?
 
grapefruit said:
So you think that peoples' emotions are fake, or that they are trying to trap you? I am not asking this to be offensive. It is just that Intjs are so rare, and I want to understand them. Though it may happen, the Infjs I know don't seem to want to trap people with their emotions. The emotions we feel are very personal and overwhelming, which makes them difficult to control. I'm sure that many Infjs will agree when I say that there are often times when we want to, but are unable to control our emotions. For the most part, people can read us like books, and it doesn't seem to me that much can be done about it.
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a) Possibly. This is not a specific reaction to any type as all types display emotion to a certain level. However, it is a jungian-specified trait of the IxTJ types to find emotions from others difficult to relate to unless we experience them ourselves. This is why very strong emotional pleas which tap our own emotions because they are very strong and direct (Fi) work very well on us whereas 'stunted/controlled/group feel/not very potent/Fe' emotions don't.

By Contrast: ExTP types fine strong emotional pleas as unsightly, unnecessary or drama. To them all emotion must be easy going and social or it is 'wrong/bad'.

b) Everyone feels emotions strongly.

There are two ways to influence IxTJ types:
1) Strong emotional displays which make us feel the same emotion and feelings. However, we may not display these back instantaneously, but we will show 'action' which considers these displays.
2) Conducive statistical logic that we can share with others which make us see a best course to take which we may not have been aware of before.
 
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InvisibleJim said:
a) Possibly. This is not a specific reaction to any type as all types display emotion to a certain level. However, it is a jungian-specified trait of the IxTJ types to find emotions from others difficult to relate to unless we experience them ourselves. This is why very strong emotional pleas which tap our own emotions because they are very strong and direct (Fi) work very well on us whereas 'stunted/controlled/group feel/not very potent/Fe' emotions don't.

By Contrast: ExTP types fine strong emotional pleas as unsightly, unnecessary or drama. To them all emotion must be easy going and social or it is 'wrong/bad'.

b) Everyone feels emotions strongly.

There are two ways to influence IxTJ types:
1) Strong emotional displays which make us feel the same emotion and feelings. However, we may not display these back instantaneously, but we will show 'action' which considers these displays.
2) Conducive statistical logic that we can share with others which make us see a best course to take which we may not have been aware of before.
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Well that's different. I don't know why, but I always thought Intjs would view strong emotional displays as awkward or as a sign of weakness.
 
grapefruit said:
Well that's different. I don't know why, but I always thought Intjs would view strong emotional displays as awkward or as a sign of weakness.
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Why ever so? :) *intrigued*
 
InvisibleJim said:
Why ever so? :) *intrigued*
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I still have maturing to do, as do many around me, so my experiences might not be as valid, but from what I have read and heard along with a basic knowledge concerning the few Intjs I know, they seem to have limited emotions in most respects. These respects exclude anything related to math, science, or Computer Science. The Intjs I know have been very nice to me. In fact, they are more polite and receptive than most, but I have heard from several different sources that one of the people I believe to be Intj has a tendency to sometimes treat people as if they are stupid, and that the person even made a girl cry. I am a first hand witness to the fact that the Intjs I know argue with people sometimes to the point of annoyance and unprofitability, but they truly can't tell when someone is at the end of his/her rope, or is having a bad day and really doesn't feel like being berated for a misplaced comma. I want to learn more about them, so I electronically asked them questions about what I had previously heard them talk about. One of them would sometimes talk to me, and then simply not talk to me for awhile until I wrote good bye. Everyone says the other one talks a lot, but the person definitely doesn't talk much to me. All I get are short or generic answers. Another fascinating thing I found was that I could get mad or show as much emotion as I wanted, and they wouldn't say anything. They didn't bring it up, treat me differently, say I was overly dramatic, immature, or explain why I shouldn't be frustrated like others did. As long as I have been around them, the only emotion they seem to display is mild annoyance. They are always so confident, calm, and logical, almost as if they have the brain of a sophisticated computer.
 
grapefruit said:
I still have maturing to do, as do many around me, so my experiences might not be as valid, but from what I have read and heard along with a basic knowledge concerning the few Intjs I know, they seem to have limited emotions in most respects. These respects exclude anything related to math, science, or Computer Science. The Intjs I know have been very nice to me. In fact, they are more polite and receptive than most, but I have heard from several different sources that one of the people I believe to be Intj has a tendency to sometimes treat people as if they are stupid, and that the person even made a girl cry. I am a first hand witness to the fact that the Intjs I know argue with people sometimes to the point of annoyance and unprofitability, but they truly can't tell when someone is at the end of his/her rope, or is having a bad day and really doesn't feel like being berated for a misplaced comma. I want to learn more about them, so I electronically asked them questions about what I had previously heard them talk about. One of them would sometimes talk to me, and then simply not talk to me for awhile until I wrote good bye. Everyone says the other one talks a lot, but the person definitely doesn't talk much to me. All I get are short or generic answers. Another fascinating thing I found was that I could get mad or show as much emotion as I wanted, and they wouldn't say anything. They didn't bring it up, treat me differently, say I was overly dramatic, immature, or explain why I shouldn't be frustrated like others did. As long as I have been around them, the only emotion they seem to display is mild annoyance. They are always so confident, calm, and logical, almost as if they have the brain of a sophisticated computer.
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So you are an INTJ botherer. Ah.

If they are displaying emotions constantly like this why do you think they frown upon it?

Aside: Have you considered INFP?
 
InvisibleJim said:
So you are an INTJ botherer. Ah.

If they are displaying emotions constantly like this why do you think they frown upon it?

Aside: Have you considered INFP?
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No, definitely Intj. It's hard to explain, but I just know. How do I bother them. I'm not saying I display those emotions constantly or purposely, but things happen every so often. Mostly I'm just overly hyper, and I try to relax, but then I get more hyper. One minute I'm normal, and the next I'm laughing so hard I can't breathe, and I can't help it. If I want to keep this to a minimum I have to try to avoid a variety of things including sugar, caffeine, ketchup, gravy, chocolate, peanut butter, computers, flashing lights, long sticks of any kind, and people with accents. Oh, also they get amused by things, but the humor tends to be more intricate, and when they are stressed or really uncomfortable you can tell because they argue and correct grammar excessively, or sit completely alone without talking to anyone.
 
Liesl said:
Huh? I don't get what you're trying to say.
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Your example is one of them, but one of the more obvious ones, especially to INFJs who are more attuned to social conditions, and INTJs who can detect BSs. And when it's more obvious, it become weaker.

From my own flawed perspective, since almost everything we done or said affects other people, almost everything can be turned into Fe traps. But it might be too inclusive...(Again, keyword being flawed)
 
btw, I don't see why @grapefruit 's statement and @InvisibleJim 's statements cannot be merged.

Isn't it somewhat imperative that people with a somewhat tight reins of their emotions, with the traits so eloquently described above by the reading cat, may, at points, see plenty of emotional expression as excessive thus senseless and thus wasteful and thus weak?
 
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grapefruit said:
No, definitely Intj. It's hard to explain, but I just know. How do I bother them. I'm not saying I display those emotions constantly or purposely, but things happen every so often. Mostly I'm just overly hyper, and I try to relax, but then I get more hyper. One minute I'm normal, and the next I'm laughing so hard I can't breathe, and I can't help it. If I want to keep this to a minimum I have to try to avoid a variety of things including sugar, caffeine, ketchup, gravy, chocolate, peanut butter, computers, flashing lights, long sticks of any kind, and people with accents. Oh, also they get amused by things, but the humor tends to be more intricate, and when they are stressed or really uncomfortable you can tell because they argue and correct grammar excessively, or sit completely alone without talking to anyone.
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I know that sounds weird, but I am partially. Maybe I'm just more energetic because I'm on the younger side.
 
So is this phenomenon restricted to Fe? Or are there other forms of cognitive function 'trappings'? Or is this a similar phenomenon--influencing others by surreptious means-- a matter of motivation and expression according to certain type pairs? For example, to flip the coin, what would a Fi-trap look like?
 
Barnabas said:
Fess up, did you know this before hand or did you have to google it?
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I know a bit about plumbing yes. I suspected there might be an S trap but I never worked with one before. I absolutely knew about P traps.
 
Hoggle said:
I know a bit about plumbing yes. I suspected there might be an S trap but I never worked with one before. I absolutely knew about P traps.
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I award you five man points for your manly knowledge.
 
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TheDaringHatTrick said:
So is this phenomenon restricted to Fe? Or are there other forms of cognitive function 'trappings'? Or is this a similar phenomenon--influencing others by surreptious means-- a matter of motivation and expression according to certain type pairs? For example, to flip the coin, what would a Fi-trap look like?
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I won't say restricted to Fe -- as I'd said, people with good knowledge of sociology and psychology, for both group and personal, with sufficient knowledge of the person or group in particular, can use it. I personally think Fe traps is just cause and effect, so people who know the effects of their actions essentially are capable of doing Fe traps, consciously or not.

I only say Fe because a) Fe types have an advantage, being somewhat more in tune with other people, and b) the...'objects' included are commonly related to Fe.

Fi trap is the usual emotional blackmail; "So you are hurting me? I'm being hurt."
Ti trap is logical fallacy. <3
 
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