Fe versus Fi

[jupiterswoon]

As an Fe, I get frustrated because often times I can't describe my own feelings, or defend my personal beliefs. When in social situations I rely on Fe, so I will feel whatever the other person is feeling. When people attack my feelings or beliefs, it's as though I have no defense system, so I go on the offensive- using Fe as a weapon. I feel like what I need to develop is an Fi shield to give my feelings sanctity and validity. I'm so tired of getting beaten down in social contexts and then having all of my energy drain, while waiting for my Ti to kick in. The weird thing for me is that feelings seem so fleeting, and when other people talk about what I should be feeling I don't have a way to protect against their projections.

Many of my friends are INFPs, ENFPs, INTJs. They seem so much better at maintaining their personal visions/goals/feelings than I do. They know what they are feeling. When I try to know what I am feeling, I have to take a ton of personal time where I am just spaced out. It almost seems as though dreams are the best way to know what I am feeling, because my emotions are so malleable. Its weird because I can get angry, then be happy or complacent- I don't feel things long enough or deeply enough to maintain whatever emotional composure I am or should be currently experiencing. But, whatever it is I'm experiencing, I express- which is sometimes to my own detriment.

Have other INFJs run into this? How did you other INFJs deal with this? If you are not an Fe, how do you deal with these kinds of situations? I would love to do some compare and contrast between the two.

 

[sassafras]

Are you sure you don't have the two mixed up?

 

[InvisibleJim]

Fi and Fe are often mistaken for feelings/emotions by the weak of Jung.

My recommendations

a) Be capable of quickly gaining resolution on the spot.
b) Or think it through beforehand.

 

[sassafras]

To elaborate:

Fi is a function that is concerned with defining the self by its values. Fi is functionally related to Ti in that it is an internal judging function that is constantly reviewing information and applying it to the self and what it already knows and recalibrating their whole world view. One minute, a Fi may think they know what they want or what they're feeling, but as soon as they get more information from a separate source, it throws them for a loop and they have to reconsider it. This is both their biggest strength and biggest weakness. They can be anything they put their mind to, they just have to figure out how to stay consistent. This is what gives Fi-types their 'chameleon' like qualities.

Fe, on the other hand, is a function that occupies itself by examining relationships and roles to play. It also has chameleon like qualities, but not in the way Fi's do. Fe is a lot less self-monitoring than Fi. As a Fe, you're not really considering what your feelings and values are because you're already living them and looking for ways to apply them. You recognize that you're an individual, but you don't worry so much about which role you play because you're not concerned with finding or 'building' an identity. Rather, you're more concerned with the group and tend to put on a whichever skin is needed.

Think of Fi and Fe as two cups that want to remain full. Fi is a full cup that other people drink from, whereas Fe is an empty cup looking to be filled. If you feel 'drained' by other people rather than energized by them, that should be your first clue that you're not Fe. Fi is more interested in preserving its energies rather than gaining or spending more.

But to answer your question, the key for Ti and Fi types struggling with the sort of analysis paralysis you've described is to just make a firm decision. Doesn't have to be the 'right' one. Just a decision. Why does catering to the emotion you're experiencing in the moment matter so much anyway? You aren't your emotions. Let your emotions sort themselves out on their own and focus on keeping the promises you've made to yourself. ie: be more task oriented.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Fi is an internally consistent ethical judgement system.

Fe is an externally validated ethical judgement system.

That is why Fi doms and Ti doms are very good at providing answers to problems on the spot; they move away from overthinking the problem, or land quickly on what they thought last time.

By contrast, Te does lends itself to presentational conciseness; but this is Fi consequential, as pointed out, INTJs appear together, but this only due to expending significant energy re-writing and juggling the internal monologue (see this post...)

What I have mostly found upsetting when dealing with INFJs in the plethora of tertiary Ti... a monstrous splurging logic chain that doesn't seem to ever conclude... But thats Ti vs Te for you. Simply, Ti takes time, but if its your primary you are always juggling those chains of thoughts. Ethics in the other hand are broad brushes and it's easy to point at ethics and say 'very pure derivative!'.

 

[sassafras]

That is why Fi doms and Ti doms are very good at providing answers to problems on the spot.

When paired with Ne, they're the best.

 

[InvisibleJim]

When paired with Ne, they're the best.

At go karting... vroom.

 

[sassafras]

At go karting... vroom.

Crash.

 

[Thinkist]

When paired with Se, they're the best.

Fixed. Now the go-kart won't crash.

 

[acd]

When paired with Ne, they're the best.

I am the best.
/troll face







Anyway, OP..

Feelings are fleeting, which is why being passive and waiting for them to settle into anything definitive is pointless.
You have to make a decision. It sounds like you need to take time to get to know yourself. Spend time doing things alone, explore yourself.
Write conversational letters to yourself (this works.) Define what is best and what is toxic for you.
This should help you to define and solidify your boundaries. Anyone can do this.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

At go karting... vroom.

Some posts just need a STFU button. I would settle for a dislike button.

 

[jupiterswoon]

I am the best.
/troll face




Anyway, OP..

Feelings are fleeting, which is why being passive and waiting for them to settle into anything definitive is pointless.
You have to make a decision. It sounds like you need to take time to get to know yourself. Spend time doing things alone, explore yourself.
Write conversational letters to yourself (this works.) Define what is best and what is toxic for you.
This should help you to define and solidify your boundaries. Anyone can do this.

I feel like I already do this all the time. The problem is that it is in social situations in which I struggle to keep my head above water, because in those situations if I am being bombarded, it's as though I can't defend myself. I suppose I just need to prepare better defense mechanisms- the problem is that I feel like I have none- because of Fe and wanting to gain approval from others. I think that's the thing that I really dislike about Fe the most. I feel like people with Fi are more concerned with themselves than others- at least emotionally, and are therefore less likely to run into this problem of wanting to please others. They also seem to be more aware of their emotions, where I literally have a hard time defining mine, asides from being confused.

Usually this happens in big group settings, where I find myself unable to stand behind my life decisions- especially if I am being put upon by the majority of the group, it's Fe wanting to please everyone and create harmony- that seems to diminish my ability to stand up for myself.....

I hope this clarifies what I meant.

 

[jupiterswoon]

Are you sure you don't have the two mixed up?

I am pretty sure that I don't have the two mixed up, as with Fi- it appears that people with Fi are not people pleasers, whereas people with Fe tend to be.

Because of Fe, when I am in social situations I am focused on group harmony, making everyone comfortable and relaxed. So, if people say something negative towards me, I don't know how to react and I become withdrawn. The INFPs I know tend to specifically be much better at vocalizing their feelings because they tend to know how they are feeling, even on the spot, and they don't care if what they say is jarring to others in the room. I really appreciate and respect their ability to say what they feel even if it kills the atmosphere. The problem that I have, is that if I disagree or if I feel like I am being disrespected, I have a hard time standing up for myself, especially if emotions are concerned.

Because of my Fe, it seems that I am more aware of how others are feeling, than my own feelings, and I can simulate their feelings, but it appears as though I have a harder time articulating my own feelings, especially when put on the spot.

"People who use Fe often use the moral judgements of other people to justify an act or decision
People who use Fi often use their own previous moral judgements to justify an act or decision

People who use Fe are hyper aware of others' feelings
People who use Fi are hyper aware of how others make them feel
(this is the most confusing distinction, as they often lead to the same result)

Most Common Positives:
People who use Fe are accomodating of others' feelings, and making others feel good tends to be their goal
People who use Fi are always aware of how they would feel when treated a certain way. self actualisation tends to be their goal

Most Common Negatives:
People who use Fe tend to side with the majority, leading them to be the types more likely to act like sheep.
Fe users are sometimes bullies because they believe the moral code of the majority is the more important. It's harder for them to be subjective.

People who use Fi tend to side with the individual, or themselves, meaning they tend to resist efforts to conform in any way.
Fi users are sometimes selfish because they believe what they feel is the more important. It's harder for them to be objective."
http://personalitycafe.com/articles/63173-fi-vs-fe-101-a.html

I think this was a good description, although I am sure I could find an even more articulate source. I hope I made more sense this post.... What I am looking for is answers on how to develop positive defense mechanisms, so that I can handle rough social situations without getting completely withdrawn and loosing all my energy to activate my Ti as well as socially hibernating... Because I don't have defense mechanisms, and am so sensitive to how other people feel, I usually give in to pressure. I wish I had Fi, so that I would care less about what other people thought.

A basic example: my family pushing their values on me. I don't want to upset them by devaluing their values, and hence I let them say what they want. Because they are emotionally manipulating me, I am put in a situation where I feel very conflicted and after the event is over, I become lethargic and unresponsive, and have to go through the process of analyzing everything that happened. I guess that's what I have Ti for, but I just wish I had more emotional resilience because I was more in touch with my own feelings. I can't ever objectively tell someone how I feel, it's like I literally can't describe it. So if I try to defend my own feelings, it's like I can't, like I don't have the tools to defend my feelings, and because of that I either become super passive and affected by criticism, or I get totally offensive. I can't defend myself emotionally. If I had Fi, then I could tell the person, you are making me feel this way, but because I am so aware of how others feel, I can't say those things.


So the question is: how do I actively defend myself from criticism without going on the offensive?

 

[jupiterswoon]

My beau seems to think that this has to do more with developing quicker Ti....

 

[Billy]

As an Fe, I get frustrated because often times I can't describe my own feelings, or defend my personal beliefs. When in social situations I rely on Fe, so I will feel whatever the other person is feeling. When people attack my feelings or beliefs, it's as though I have no defense system, so I go on the offensive- using Fe as a weapon. I feel like what I need to develop is an Fi shield to give my feelings sanctity and validity. I'm so tired of getting beaten down in social contexts and then having all of my energy drain, while waiting for my Ti to kick in. The weird thing for me is that feelings seem so fleeting, and when other people talk about what I should be feeling I don't have a way to protect against their projections.

Many of my friends are INFPs, ENFPs, INTJs. They seem so much better at maintaining their personal visions/goals/feelings than I do. They know what they are feeling. When I try to know what I am feeling, I have to take a ton of personal time where I am just spaced out. It almost seems as though dreams are the best way to know what I am feeling, because my emotions are so malleable. Its weird because I can get angry, then be happy or complacent- I don't feel things long enough or deeply enough to maintain whatever emotional composure I am or should be currently experiencing. But, whatever it is I'm experiencing, I express- which is sometimes to my own detriment.

Have other INFJs run into this? How did you other INFJs deal with this? If you are not an Fe, how do you deal with these kinds of situations? I would love to do some compare and contrast between the two.

Fe as a weapon would be to turn your friend group against the person who is insulting you. If its the whole group, I would say you need new friends lol.

 

[Matt3737]

So the question is: how do I actively defend myself from criticism without going on the offensive?

This is a bit contradictory. It is easy enough to defend yourself without being offensive, but when you say 'actively defend,' that's euphemistic code to say going on the offensive.

My beau seems to think that this has to do more with developing quicker Ti....

I'd agree with your beau.

 

[jupiterswoon]

This is a bit contradictory. It is easy enough to defend yourself without being offensive, but when you say 'actively defend,' that's euphemistic code to say going on the offensive.



I'd agree with your beau.

What I meant by "actively defend" is simply to stand up for myself- instead of being passive, or on the offensive.

de·fend   [dih-fend] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to ward off attack from; guard against assault or injury (usually followed by from or against ): The sentry defended the gate against sudden attack.
2.
to maintain by argument, evidence, etc.; uphold: She defended her claim successfully.
3.
to contest (a legal charge, claim, etc.).

4. to support (an argument, theory, etc.) in the face of criticism; prove the validity of (a dissertation, thesis, or the like) by answering arguments and questions put by a committee of specialists.

 

[InvisibleJim]

So the question is: how do I actively defend myself from criticism without going on the offensive?

You change your viewpoint to that of forming a mutual agreed position if that is acceptable. However, attack is the best form of defense when it is required.

 

[Inquisitive]

I like the way you've described it as "actively defending" yourself.

And I also agree that Ti is going to help you find your footing... It'll help you pick it apart so that you can figure out what is really going on.

 

[Untitled]

I am pretty sure that I don't have the two mixed up, as with Fi- it appears that people with Fi are not people pleasers, whereas people with Fe tend to be.

Because of Fe, when I am in social situations I am focused on group harmony, making everyone comfortable and relaxed. So, if people say something negative towards me, I don't know how to react and I become withdrawn. The INFPs I know tend to specifically be much better at vocalizing their feelings because they tend to know how they are feeling, even on the spot, and they don't care if what they say is jarring to others in the room. I really appreciate and respect their ability to say what they feel even if it kills the atmosphere. The problem that I have, is that if I disagree or if I feel like I am being disrespected, I have a hard time standing up for myself, especially if emotions are concerned.

Because of my Fe, it seems that I am more aware of how others are feeling, than my own feelings, and I can simulate their feelings, but it appears as though I have a harder time articulating my own feelings, especially when put on the spot.

"People who use Fe often use the moral judgements of other people to justify an act or decision
People who use Fi often use their own previous moral judgements to justify an act or decision

People who use Fe are hyper aware of others' feelings
People who use Fi are hyper aware of how others make them feel
(this is the most confusing distinction, as they often lead to the same result)

You don't need to be aware of your own feelings to know what is right and what is wrong. If someone says something rude or dismissive to another person in your presence for example you know it's wrong, not because you'd necessarily feel bad if someone did that to you but because it's plain wrong. If it's based on ignorance, perpetuates ignorance and suffering, if the act fouls the group atmosphere and is contrary to the common good then your ability to "use your Fe" will help you see this and you can make the decision to not stand by it and say your piece. Most Fe-dom ENFJs I know are quite vocal when they see a social wrong. I personally often feel compelled to comment on things I observe despite the fact I know very well it won't make me the most popular person around.
One thing that may be happening is if the lag time it takes for taking in the situation fully is too long. We are dom perceivers after all so it kind of has to fist compute unless it's plain as day before the "hammer falls" and the verdict is in.

Most Common Positives:
People who use Fe are accomodating of others' feelings, and making others feel good tends to be their goal
People who use Fi are always aware of how they would feel when treated a certain way. self actualisation tends to be their goal

Most Common Negatives:
People who use Fe tend to side with the majority, leading them to be the types more likely to act like sheep.
Fe users are sometimes bullies because they believe the moral code of the majority is the more important. It's harder for them to be subjective.

People who use Fi tend to side with the individual, or themselves, meaning they tend to resist efforts to conform in any way.
Fi users are sometimes selfish because they believe what they feel is the more important. It's harder for them to be objective."
http://personalitycafe.com/articles/63173-fi-vs-fe-101-a.html

I think this was a good description, although I am sure I could find an even more articulate source. I hope I made more sense this post.... What I am looking for is answers on how to develop positive defense mechanisms, so that I can handle rough social situations without getting completely withdrawn and loosing all my energy to activate my Ti as well as socially hibernating... Because I don't have defense mechanisms, and am so sensitive to how other people feel, I usually give in to pressure. I wish I had Fi, so that I would care less about what other people thought.

Fi doms have their own troubles in life and everyone's got hardship. I personally think dealing with the social pressures and expectations when you're sensitive to others' feelings and can predict fairly accurately (Ni) what possible adverse reactions taking a stand would have is just something one has to learn. What would you rather do? If you think you're just going along because of fear of being picked on instead of living authentic to yourself (I personally feel it's not my feelings I need to be authentic to because it's not what is the most relevant factor to me in how I'd define authenticity). Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet. It doesn't have to be done in a spirit of hostility.
I find it's enough that I just state what's on my mind.
A friend of mine who is an ENFJ who suffered from what is known as false social adaption had an epiphany of sorts a while ago and told me they had begun to just always speak the truth. They said some people took offense at first but that their experience so far has been very positive.