Fi = anger?

[VH]

Interesting! I was thinking that an hour ago. I actually opened this thread because I realized that the INFPs I know have this certain kind of anger which is almost rage. They somehow explode all of a sudden. And with INTJs, their Fi could be pure (someone called it "baby Fi"), but it could also be a nuclear bomb.

For an INTJ, anger will very often be associated with Fi. It's your F function.

Look up hypothalamus...

My brain saw "Look up gothopotamus..."

I don't think you could map Fi to the hypothalamus, because this part of the brain controls arousal or reaction to the environment.

The hypothalamus is part of the limbic system, and Fi is defeinitely strongly associated with the limbic system. Fe also has a lot of limbic association.

Fi is not reactive.. it is a reasoning function.

Correct.

 

[Arsal]

Let me elaborate on what I opined previously.

If you are INFJ or INTJ, anger will often spur from Se, e.g. if you are suddenly thrown into unfamiliar situations, which tends to make me very, very irritable. I have noticed this habit in other IxxJs I know as well. There is a necessity to find familiarity, and consequently be in control.

I can't say this is the only source of anger, but perhaps one of many.

Similarly, for INFPs, anger often comes from having external criteria/rules (Te) imposed upon them without consideration for the humanistic aspect of it (Fi). If you find INFPs suddenly angry at you, it is not simply because they are Fi-dominant, but because they might feel as if your Te-aux/dom is attacking their Te-inferior.

And then there is the PoLR (Te, for INFJs), which is often another source of frustration and anger, but unlike the inferior function which is basically a resignation (towards weakness), the PoLR is vigorously opposed. It's less anger, and more conscious rejection of a certain aspect of human nature.

/word vomit (take it as a grain of salt)

 

[acd]

For an INTJ, anger will very often be associated with Fi. It's your F function.







The hypothalamus is part of the limbic system, and Fi is defeinitely strongly associated with the limbic system. Fe also has a lot of limbic association.

Interesting. How do you know any of this? I'd be interested to see more info on that.

Anger doesn't come from Fi.
Introverted Feeling isn't anger.
Yep. I agree they may be associated.


Anger is aroused when one feels threatened or at a loss in some way.
Fi does not equal feeling threatened.
Fi may make some decisions to avoid being threatened, but that is not the same as the reaction of anger... it's a rational process.

 

[VH]

How do you know any of this?

They did that study with the MRI, and found a strong corrleation between self assessed Fi doms and high activity in the limbic system. Fe doms also had notable activity in the limbic system. Ne and Ni had a lot of cingulate activity. Interesting study if you can track down the reports. It's still ongoing from what I understand.

 

[Morgain]

All of the senses are used BY Se and Si. Ne and Ni use input from the senses as well. The mind's ability to process the information we take in is the definition of the Perception functions. A good analogy is a webcam, and the drivers that operate it. The senses are like the input device. The Perception functions are the software that run them.

Anger comes from no cognitive function. That's not what they do. They're independent of things like emotions, sensory input, and any other factors. They interact with and use those things to make their deductions and inductions, and can even cause them, but they're not the same. For example, Fi could make a conclusion that leads to anger. However, so could Fe, Te, or Ti. Have you ever seen an INTP flip out because someone said something imprecisely? Our perception functions can process things that are directly upsetting, and possibly skip reason altogether, leading straight to anger. Your Se spots your spouse holding hands with someone else. Your Si notices someone else's lipstick on his collar. Your Ni picks up on a subtle pattern that implies your spouse is cheating. All of these could lead directly to an instinctive anger response. The same is true of any emotion. They're often associated with the Feeling functions, but they're not the Feeling functions.

I wholeheartedly agree with this

Yeah, but that's not Ti, that's Fi.

I don't agree with the first sentence because we have senses for vision, but none for "feeling". And I didn't say Fi and anger are the same. I said "Does anger come from Fi?". I don't think, for example, that anger could ever come from Se or Ne.

so now INTP's use Fi as well? that is new for me. I think you are trying to make your statement stand while it is sinking in the mud. You don't see anger coming from Se or Ne because you don't want to see. When a drunken man slaps down his wife because she looked at him in the wrong way, that is not anger coming from Fi. I'm 100% sure that Fi would NEVER lead to such a behavior. If that anger must come from a cognitive function it most certainly comes from Se. So here you have an example.

I have lately been thinking that INFPs are often angry without a cause, or without a cause that others might celebrate. They think of themselves as the ultimate arbiters of truth, and often blow steam without anybody else being on their side or understanding their issue as they do. INFJs on the other hand try to think, is what I'm feeling called for, is it Fe, too? I think this helps them keep things more proportionate at least in terms of the expression of the feeling. I don't think people should just pop the cork as they lose too much champagne.

and we are back at generalizations. I can say the same thing about let say ESTP's and getting angry for now reason. You make it sound like you are only allowed to blow off steam when the masses agree with you. If everybody would always look at the masses for the proper attitude than what a grey boring world this would be... Progress comes from standing up against the masses. As does socialism, antiracism, .... Wisdom is not looking at the crowd for approval but knowing when to follow and when to stand up for your own believes in order to make this world a better place.

 

[technics]

I think you are trying to make your statement stand while it is sinking in the mud. You don't see anger coming from Se or Ne because you don't want to see.

I'm sorry, but that conclusion is wrong.

 

[Aleksei]

The hypothalamus is part of the limbic system, and Fi is defeinitely strongly associated with the limbic system.

Bullshit. Anger is associated to the Limbic system, which means that Fi is only associated to it insofar as it's associated to anger -- no canonical definition directly links Fi to the Limbic system, or any part of the brain.

And then there is the PoLR (Te, for INFJs), which is often another source of frustration and anger, but unlike the inferior function which is basically a resignation (towards weakness), the PoLR is vigorously opposed. It's less anger, and more conscious rejection of a certain aspect of human nature.

I think we've had this argument before, non? PoLR is a Socionics concept.

 

[VH]

Bullshit. Anger is associated to the Limbic system, which means that Fi is only associated to it insofar as it's associated to anger -- no canonical definition directly links Fi to the Limbic system, or any part of the brain.

True, but that's one of the wonderful things about science. We make discoveries. There are currently studies going on that are finding a connection between strong limbic system activity and people who self identify as Fi doms. This doesn't mean Fi equates to anger. It does mean that Fi users appear to be more capable of working with their anger, and including it in their reasoning.

I think we've had this argument before, non? PoLR is a Socionics concept.

Socionics is another version of Jung's Cognitive Function models, therefore it's as valid for discussion as any other system. Personally, I find it especially interesting once you get past the surface issues and the Russian transliterations.

 

[Arsal]

I think we've had this argument before, non? PoLR is a Socionics concept.

Indeed. I should maybe start saying "Trickster" if it bothers you so much. Either way the idea remains the same.

 

[Aleksei]

True, but that's one of the wonderful things about science. We make discoveries. There are currently studies going on that are finding a connection between strong limbic system activity and people who self identify as Fi doms.

Bolded: Flaw with your reasoning.

 

[VH]

Bolded: Flaw with your reasoning.

Possibly, but there really isn't any other way to identify an Fi dom outside of having some 'experts' verify this outside of a self assessment instrument, which if I'm not mistaken the members of the study are doing before they put subjects into the MRI. Obviously, there is going to be a margin of error in type assessment, regardless of methodology.

For example, you're an INTP who thinks they're an ENTP.

(Heh, I'm kidding. Your ability to come up with counterproductive assumptions is far too well developed for you to not be an Ne dom.)

 

[Aleksei]

(Heh, I'm kidding. Your ability to come up with counterproductive assumptions is far too well developed for you to not be an Ne dom.)

lawl

 

[InvisibleJim]

Bolded: Flaw with your reasoning.

I'm confused; can you point out anyone you know who does not 'self-identify' with 'Fi' as proof of cognitive type? Therefore, what [MENTION=708]VH[/MENTION] is pointing out that those people who 'self identify' with Fi are more prone to emotional responses. There are a number of potential causes for this including the implicit error of self typing or the bundle of Forer and agglomerative effects we tend to see when typing.

Bullshit. Anger is associated to the Limbic system, which means that Fi is only associated to it insofar as it's associated to anger -- no canonical definition directly links Fi to the Limbic system, or any part of the brain.

Emotion =/= cognition, but as a socionist you agree to the concept of information elements and I'm sure you have seen peoples cognition through dealing with certain information elements can trigger an emotional response.

I think we've had this argument before, non? PoLR is a Socionics concept.

I hate to point out... so what?

*fluffles Aleksei's hair*

 

[Trifoilum]

It can manifest as Te, Se, gosh even Fe.
I've felt it come from basically any introverted process.

I don't think the functions are supposed to represent emotions. The functions go with perspectives and outlooks, not concrete mindsets.

+1. Fi!Anger and Ti!Anger is different. So is Ni, Se, Fe, Te, Ne, Si....

In my perspective, they can be angry in a different way.

However, if what you're asking is "does the stereotype related to anger can be shoehorned into Fi and its function as a whole without looking further?", then I wholefully agreed. However it'd be a tad too shallow, wouldn't it?

Also, one's perspective as in, how you see 'anger' (what constitutes it? How does one respond to it?), and how you see all functions as, will affect what you're seeing.

If we're simplifying things, I personally saw anger as Te/Fe in manifestation, underlying Fi/Ti principles behind. But that's a bit too shallow.