gifted kids

It boggles the mind how people can think that isolating kids from their peers is an excellent way to help them maximize their potential, considering most of your success in life will depend on how well you interact with others. The best way to help gifted kids is to give them appropriate roles within a destreamed class, not to isolate them in a 'special' class… not surprised I'm hearing stories about how doing so basically gave people inflated egos.
 
I was dubbed a "gifted" child, whatever that means. The programs that followed, in the sparse formal education I have, taught me to know everything but myself, which is all I really need to know. It was nothing but a shinier robot factory with a golden coat of ostracization.

I respect the attempt to unwrap the politically correct "all are born equal" dogma from around parents' and students' necks, but its execution needs much work (and a galaxy's worth more funding).
 
This said:
Yes, also a lot of those arts degrees are useless because you don't need the degree to get into the field. For example, I do a lot more audio work than my friends with audio-technical degrees. The reason is connections and experience.
Click to expand...

Getting into something isn't the end all and be all; your argument is short-sighted. Sure, you can get into a field with just experience, but you might not go very far. For example, the audio guys I work believe that some digital cables sound better than others, and that the arrows on cables indicate the 'directionality' of them. If they had an artsy audio degree, they (hopefully) would know that this is complete bullshit, and why.

Of course, if you have a voracious appetite for knowledge, you could learn on your own, and you can be ignorant even with education, but it's usually easier with other people guiding you a bit.
 
Apone said:
I'm not sure where you live, but in reality the exact opposite is happening (or should be).
Also, it's not dogma at all, social learning is the predominant theory in education right now.

http://www.learning-theories.com/vygotskys-social-learning-theory.html
Click to expand...

I've been around. Admittedly, I was homeschooled through the sixth grade, then began teaching myself when consistent formal schooling wasn't available. High school was the only period of normal socialization for me; however, that was more than enough to see that America's education system is broken.

Growing with and through others is not the same thing as being pigeonholed into a box that you must fit into for academic success. Some kids have stronger affinities for certain subjects than others. Take mathematics for an example: putting a mathematically gifted child into a class of regulars, the chances of her going as far as she can and adopting a strong work ethic and intellectual appetite are limited. Likewise, if you place that same child - who may not have a same affinity for reading/grammar - into an accelerated reading class because she has been identified as "bright", she could easily flounder. Bad performance can create a self-image issue that spirals down when she's been told all her life that she's smart and should 'get' everything. That opens the door to psychological problems: guilt for failing parental standards, anxiety over self-worth, avoidance of the subject to minimize stress, apathy, and so on. Compound all this with the pressures of growing up, especially the adolescent years, and you can have one hell of a mess. It's a horrible precedent to set and I've seen this happen over and over in my peers; it's unfair and very frustrating to watch.

All are not born equal, but everyone should be given equal opportunities to grow per their individual abilities. If there is change coming, it can't be soon enough.
 
Yeah, there's this belief that if a child was bright that they didn't need help. I've noticed this from teachers or instructors where if you're considered smart or very intelligent, you're expected to figure things out without any help or guidance from anyone. This becomes very frustrating. You should be "smart enough" to get it. Teachers would default on that responsibility to help or guide students because they believed the student would get it on their own.
 
Apone said:
It boggles the mind how people can think that isolating kids from their peers is an excellent way to help them maximize their potential, considering most of your success in life will depend on how well you interact with others.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I have so much trouble relating to others, most likely because of my intelligence, that the only way I was able to 'find myself' socially was by going to a university with a bunch of other really smart kids. And I'm not even that smart; my IQ is like 135, maybe 140 if we're being very generous.

If it weren't for the few smart people I knew as a kid, such as my very smart physics teacher, wild child english teacher, that kid in the grade below me who liked to discuss philosophy, I would have ended up even more schizoid than I am now.

I know what you're saying; it's for this reason I refused to go to college early (I was identified as a kid on the Duke talent search program, and they sent my mom flyers...). But, as many people have mentioned before me, I think that was a mistake. If you are that smart, university is just about the only place you will ever fit in. I think it's important to accept your talents; being 'smart' (whatever that means) really affects how you perceive and process information and so it's important to recognize and accommodate that.
 
alice144 said:
I disagree. I have so much trouble relating to others, most likely because of my intelligence, that the only way I was able to 'find myself' socially was by going to a university with a bunch of other really smart kids. And I'm not even that smart; my IQ is like 135, maybe 140 if we're being very generous.

If it weren't for the few smart people I knew as a kid, such as my very smart physics teacher, wild child english teacher, that kid in the grade below me who liked to discuss philosophy, I would have ended up even more schizoid than I am now.

I know what you're saying; it's for this reason I refused to go to college early (I was identified as a kid on the Duke talent search program, and they sent my mom flyers...). But, as many people have mentioned before me, I think that was a mistake. If you are that smart, university is just about the only place you will ever fit in. I think it's important to accept your talents; being 'smart' (whatever that means) really affects how you perceive and process information and so it's important to recognize and accommodate that.
Click to expand...

I never answered your part about fitting in with others...I was weird and quiet/shy at school, I wasn't great socially and didn't fit in all that well.

With that said, I disagree with you. I don't think being smart is equal to not fitting in with people in general. Some of the most intelligent people are intelligent in more than just academics...ie. interpersonal, emotional and etc.
I think it's important to have balance in life.
 
Neverwhere said:
Some of the most intelligent people are intelligent in more than just academics...ie. interpersonal, emotional and etc.
I think it's important to have balance in life.
Click to expand...

Sometimes. I attribute my alienation to intelligence, however, because when I am around smart people, I feel more 'at home'. And not just nerdy people; 'smart' smart people.



I mean, I'd like to be wrong about this. I've gone through periods where I think I'm full of shit and maybe way too self-involved for my own good. But, I've thought about it a long time, and I'm pretty sure I'm right. Unfortunately.
 
Neverwhere said:
I never answered your part about fitting in with others...I was weird and quiet/shy at school, I wasn't great socially and didn't fit in all that well.

With that said, I disagree with you. I don't think being smart is equal to not fitting in with people in general. Some of the most intelligent people are intelligent in more than just academics...ie. interpersonal, emotional and etc.
I think it's important to have balance in life.
Click to expand...

alice144 said:
Sometimes. I attribute my alienation to intelligence, however, because when I am around smart people, I feel more 'at home'. And not just nerdy people; 'smart' smart people.



I mean, I'd like to be wrong about this. I've gone through periods where I think I'm full of shit and maybe way too self-involved for my own good. But, I've thought about it a long time, and I'm pretty sure I'm right. Unfortunately.
Click to expand...

Seems each person needs something different. Everyone isn't the same and may have differing environments which work for them. One size usually doesn't fit all.
 
alice144 said:
I disagree. I have so much trouble relating to others, most likely because of my intelligence, that the only way I was able to 'find myself' socially was by going to a university with a bunch of other really smart kids.
Click to expand...

It's a myth that intelligence isolates you from others. If your math skills/whatever are all you have, then you're going to be isolated… but the same thing goes for low-IQ kids with poor social skills.

And I don't think that just because you're in a 'gifted class' or people think of you as intelligent, it means that you're light years ahead of everyone else, or so far ahead of everyone else that the normal class will only hold you back, or that 'normal' kids could never possibly understand you.

A lot of it depends on your home life/parenting-- it's not always because you're somehow innately 'better'. And if the parents would listen to the teachers and help their kids instead of trying to get them fired/blame them for their kid's lousy grades, then the whole process might actually work for a change.

But I would agree that once you fall behind it can be extremely difficult to catch up…
 
Apone said:
It boggles the mind how people can think that isolating kids from their peers is an excellent way to help them maximize their potential, considering most of your success in life will depend on how well you interact with others. The best way to help gifted kids is to give them appropriate roles within a destreamed class, not to isolate them in a 'special' class… not surprised I'm hearing stories about how doing so basically gave people inflated egos.
Click to expand...

Well, as a kid who was in a "special" class, it didn't feel special. It felt normal. In fact, the only time I ever remember being told we were doing anything at all different was when a teacher said we were doing 3 lessons a day in math at one point. If anything, being in such classes only helped me. Honestly, I think I learned more in a year in 3rd through 5th grade, socially and educationally, than I ever did in any year before or since.

I don't have an inflated ego, and I never did. Yes, I felt cool that I was "smart," but the only way that affected me was that I worked harder later in my education to be perceived as smart. Ultimately that probably benefited me.

I think "gifted only" classes should be standard. As long as you treat the kids normal while still being considered "special," nothing bad can really come from it, in my opinion.
 
I wasn't identified as a gifted, as my country doesn't have gifted programs. However I heard later that my first year teacher considered me as a one, even though I had problems with reading and writing (and was later diagnosed with dyslexia).

I don't really remember putting any effort for learning things. At some point I considered school as a nice place where all you do is relax and point teachers for their errors. My grades where good to excellent in subjects I liked and mediocre on subjects I disliked, and that was just by listening and taking notes on lessons.

At high school, for the first time of my life, I did some effort for studying one subject - chemistry. For it I ended up to be the best of my age, in my country, and participated in International Chemistry Olympiad a few times, which also granted me some fame. As a result people got interested and they started to make contact only on basis of my success. This happened particularly at my first university year, resulting in a lots of situations that I really didn't like. In general, I disliked being point of interest only because "I was the one who did this and that", sometimes I even felt like a circus animal.

For university... After my initial excitement, I found out that most of the courses where just boringly easy. I could get good grades from most of the courses, just by looking at the book a day before exams. Lectures (most but not all) also become unbearable, for they where slow phased (and yes many times they just had bad lecturer), and I just could not get myself attending them. I did try to attend them every time when new course started, with hope that would learn from them... only to fail to do so. It was like: Sit 2 hours on lecture listening lecturer to explain things that would take 15mins to learn (huoh!).

This resulted in loss of motivation and my grades started to drop. I really didn't care at that point, as I could have got the best grades, if I would have wanted, but saw no point to do so. However I found research to be interesting and got a good knack of it... Well, except that I ended up to beating my instructor in it, which resulted in some "interesting" situations where I gave him instructions. The result... Instead of giving me a doctoral student position, I got recommended to go abroad to do my phd. This was actually that the head of department understood my situation and told straight what would be the best course of action.


For relating to others
I had no problems to relate to others in preschool or early school years, although there where some profound differences between our interests. But then somewhere after age of 10, winds started to change, and I found the company of my peers less and less likeable. Our interest where just so different and sometimes I felt that I would change to something else than me, if I would be with them.

In the end, I had very little contact with my peers outside of school, and living in small town didn't help either, so I mostly interacted with adults. At that time relating to my peers was just a distant dream... which ultimately resulted in great despair. I could however relate to some of my peers in International Chemistry Olympiad, but we went to different universities and thus don't interact that much anymore.

For university, I didn't find to be able to relate to my fellow students, again we where just too different. With grad students and staff I could relate with matters concerning their speciality, for other things not.
In general, I'm liked by people and get along with almost everyone. But the real connection between us do not form, it's like mutual understanding would not exist and there seems no way to gain it... it's kinda like we would be from different planets.
 
I was identified as gifted in grade school. It was a rather sucky experience to tell the truth. I got put into a special reading class with both bright and slow learners. The teacher asked me what I wanted and I said I wanted to be reading the 6th grade book because it had little print--unlike the big print. I was in the 3rd grade. She laughed. You had to read each story and do a small comprehension test at the end of the story. She offered a mini lifesaver 4pack for every story you finished. After I finished the first book in like 7 days she modified it to "no more than one candy per day". LOL That bitch threw every book at me from simple books way below my reading level and every book in between--I think I went through like 9-10 reading books and at least 150 stories. On the very last day of school she took me to a closet, opened it up and let me have the 6th grade book. By then, I hated her.

In junior high I got booted into a gifted class. It was pretty lowkey. We did stuff like make airplanes and basic computer programming. Considering it was early 80's it was pretty neat stuff. We were all really smart kids and some were bonified geeks/nerds. I used to pretend to be someone else in class--make up skits and outlandish stories. It was a very "hands off" class where we usually got to wander and play around. There were directed activities sometimes. It seemed that they were more intersted in studying us then anything. I think that is why I fucked around so much and the other students played along.

I moved a lot growing up. I didn't have trouble making a few good friends but did the loner thing too. I usually blended in with several groups and didn't get pegged as anything really. I spent a lot of time in the last 2 years of high school having lots of fun *cough cough* I didn't work very hard but then most of the time I didn't need to anyway.

I went to college right after high school but ended up not finishing my degree. I got burned out. I probably should of finished. I'll be finishing my degree soon and am starting classes in August.
 
alice144 said:
Were any of you identified as gifted as kids? Growing up, did feel that your environment was stimulating enough? Could you relate to your peers? Were you by chance one of those lucky kids who enrolled in college early?

Trying to get an idea of others' experiences.
Click to expand...

My school was geared towards exulting achievement, without encouraging achievers to feel special.

At every stage of assessment, your seating was adjusted so that the higher your marks, the closer to the back left-hand corner of the class you sat. However, the back row of the class was often given additional menial tasks, such as cleaning, and also had to help tutor the rest of the class. To be an achiever at my school always meant more work and responsibility, which was scrutinised severely at times. (Back in the days when corporal punishment was still in force).

Eventually those of us who were regulars in the back row would be shifted to advanced classes, where you might not get to the back row so easily. However, in those classes, we of the 'back row' were then often engaged in teaching activities, such as presenting special topic seminars to other classes.

I really loved that system. I guess, I love hierarchical structures.
 
Gifted - yes, at grade 4. I was kicked out of the program around 10th grade due to falling grades. I did homework, but rarely studied until college. I had no study skills by then, because in grade school I would do my work quickly and then fuck around. I was distracted a lot, because I was bored. As others mentioned, I would typically not show my work in math. Much to the chagrin of my teachers.

I did not relate to a lot of people. I had a neighbor friend a year ahead of me in school who was in the dumb classes and was ADHD. He used to get picked on and beat up after school. I had another neighborhood friend a year behind me who was also in gifted, like me. He ended up getting into drugs and dropping out of high school (presumably to get his GED and start college early).

I myself had the option to take college credits while in high school, but failed to take advantage. When presented with an option, such as college credits, AP courses or International Baccalaureate courses, I almost always took the easy road. I remember in a sixth grade advanced reading class, I skipped reading a book in favor of the Cliff's Notes. I guess you can say I was too smart for my own good.

I lasted a couple years in college before dropping out for my own good. While away from school, I researched my dream career--to become an astronaut--but was crushed when I found out I would be too tall to fit in the space suit. Faced with reality, I took career and personality assessments, talked with family, and then decided to go back to school for Accounting. Going to college with a purpose was what I was missing the first time around.
 
My parents did alright by me -- we had lots of trips to museums, national parks, nature preserves, etc. Friday afternoon was always visit the Library afternoon. But the best thing was Sunday afternoons with my Dad, who I had a wonderful relationship with, which included sharing books, studying church history and theology, AND having Socratic discussions with. Dad was never content that I just learn the "right answers." He wanted me to think well. He'd find something I was passionate about, and argue against it until he changed my mind, AND THEN HE'D SWITCH SIDES!!!!!

I also had a good relationship with one of my Aunts, who was one of Hubble's technicians. She would take me into JPL or to CalTech or up to Griffith Obervatory. I remember seeing the rings of Saturn in the telescope in her back yard (a toy for her kids) and as I looked, behind me she said, "The heaven declare the glory of G-d." She always encouraged me. I remember when I was thinking of becoming a nurse, she said, "A nurse? Why not become a doctor!!!"

School actually did okay by me. I had a lot of teachers that made deals with me, like, if I finished my work early, I could leave clas for the day and go to the Learning Center where I could pursue my own interests, playing with the rats (I learned about sex watching the rats LOL), use the media lab, peruse the library, etc. In High School, the gifted program meant much harder English and Social studies in less time, 3 days a week, and then the other 2 days, we would take "satelite classes." A satellite class might be a class in Death and Dying, specially designed for the gifted program, OR I could contract with a regular teacher to take any regular class, like sewing, 2 days a week.

The only place that really let me down was Church. I had questions questions questions, and my Sunday School teachers were nitwits who never knew half as much as me. Half way through High School I was so going stir crazy... Thank goodness my Dad understood, and helped me out by driving me to all sorts of different churches as I began my spiritual search. He drove me monthly to Pasadena for the CS Lewis Society meetings. He allowed me to visit non-Christian places such as a Synagogue. Let's face it. Sunday School just isn't designed for gifted kids.
 
GracieRuth said:
...
I also had a good relationship with one of my Aunts, who was one of Hubble's technicians. She would take me into JPL or to CalTech or up to Griffith Obervatory. I remember seeing the rings of Saturn in the telescope in her back yard (a toy for her kids) and as I looked, behind me she said, "The heaven declare the glory of G-d." She always encouraged me. I remember when I was thinking of becoming a nurse, she said, "A nurse? Why not become a doctor!!!"

School actually did okay by me. I had a lot of teachers that made deals with me, like, if I finished my work early, I could leave clas for the day and go to the Learning Center where I could pursue my own interests, playing with the rats (I learned about sex watching the rats LOL), use the media lab, peruse the library, etc. In High School, the gifted program meant much harder English and Social studies in less time, 3 days a week, and then the other 2 days, we would take "satelite classes." A satellite class might be a class in Death and Dying, specially designed for the gifted program, OR I could contract with a regular teacher to take any regular class, like sewing, 2 days a week.

The only place that really let me down was Church. I had questions questions questions, and my Sunday School teachers were nitwits who never knew half as much as me. Half way through High School I was so going stir crazy... Thank goodness my Dad understood, and helped me out by driving me to all sorts of different churches as I began my spiritual search. He drove me monthly to Pasadena for the CS Lewis Society meetings. He allowed me to visit non-Christian places such as a Synagogue. Let's face it. Sunday School just isn't designed for gifted kids.
Click to expand...

OH that sounds absolutely wonderful! What a gift indeed, you were very, very gifted to have those experiences. Haha, and yes, the Sunday School experience is usually more about flinging finger paint, making puppets, listening to bible stories, or singing KumBahYah -- which actually smart children do just as enthusiastically as the not quite so intellectually gifted ones but it may possibly not be the best environment for them. And forget debate.

I was in a "TAG" program as a child but was basically a horrifically shy little girl with some fairly major problems communicating, and I could not or would not connect with teachers (I wish I had) or most other students, and thus did not benefit as much as I could until later in childhood when I attempted to be more outgoing. Which caused its own problems. I luckily did have some good friends who were also quite introverted -- my mom recalls "play dates" when I was about 7-8 years old where one of my closest friends and I sat in opposite corners of the room reading. (She said I was an angel. :D Yes, yes I am.) Definitely not troublesome until the teen years. I deeply regret not taking more opportunities for learning as a child and teenager, but that's just the way my life worked out -- I was more interested in people, and acceptance, and dance, and art, than learning or competition. I was definitely socially awkward while wanting desperately to fit in. A little more competitive spirit would have done me good as a child, because it would have inspired me to do my best, but I didn't have a competitive spirit at all back then.
 
Apone said:
It's a myth that intelligence isolates you from others.

A lot of it depends on your home life/parenting-- it's not always because you're somehow innately 'better'.
Click to expand...

This is kind of hard to discuss without becoming excessively snobbish.

I've noticed, over time, that I have different interests. Interests which someone who is not as smart will not also enjoy. The 'no one will understand me' paradigm is true, then not true. I think that everyone will be able to understand everyone at some level, but then some people won't understand certain thoughts I have, or why I think them, or what it feels like to think those thoughts. Again, this is not an issue of 'better', but rather 'different'.

Apone said:
And I don't think that just because you're in a 'gifted class' or people think of you as intelligent, it means that you're light years ahead of everyone else, or so far ahead of everyone else that the normal class will only hold you back, or that 'normal' kids could never possibly understand you.
Click to expand...

Actually, this was my experience exactly; I slept all through high school.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top