Firstly, the women’s health issue is an issue, but is not THE issue that this decision has brought fourth.
There are quite a few problems that this ruling has the possibility of causing.
The SCOTUS has deemed that corporations are people with the Citizen’s United decision, which names corporations as “people”, giving them rights that they actually have no right to have…this combined with the McCutcheon decision has secured that the richest “people” (corporations) win the votes…this has effectively taken the democratic process and neutered it. If you now combine it with the most recent decision which the SCOTUS actually has no right to turn into law (it only should have effected those fighting the court battle. (If you saw my previous post then this is more the action of a Monarchy than a court who is NOT supposed to create or dismantle laws) Because this calls corporations “people” it effectively says that the rights of the workers must come second to the owners, where once that was protected, now it can easily be challenged - that is the issue more than women’s rights to contraception…which I must mention was won with incorrect medical science…IUDs and the morning after pill do not induce abortions - they prevent fertilization…not only are they wrong but Hobby Lobby are hypocritical by saying that their religious beliefs are “deeply held” they actually own millions of dollars in stock from pharmaceutical manufactures who produce these “abortion inducing” products and drugs (no shit, look it up). The SCOTUS cannot make a broad sweeping ruling into law…this was very clear from our Founding Fathers - Except we cannot vote out the SCOTUS…there are there until they resign or die.
This ruling gives corporations legal rights to discriminate on just about anything. What is someone works for a Christian group that believes women are below men and therefore shouldn’t be paid as much? Or a Jehovahs Witness company who will not cover you receiving life-saving blood products? Or the LGBT community? “So sorry, you are fired because you’re gay and are going to burn in hell.” Or how would you feel if your workplace was Muslim and imposed Sharia Law on you or your family? It’s that Pandora’s Box that is the most frightening thing….this does not give people MORE religious freedom, it takes it away from YOU and ME and gives it to our bosses!
Business ethics are rules and intentions that are generally agreed upon by the whole business community…whereas religious beliefs follow rules that are not always agreed upon by everyone…take Christian away, and insert Muslim - first of all this case would have failed - HORRIBLY…but if they won, we would have so many Christians up in arms, we would have riots until it was revoked.
Religion should not be a deciding factor in politics or business….it is a dangerous precedent because it violates the rights of everyone else who believes differently by superseding their beliefs.
Casie,
They certainly can adopt any views they want and many of them do, whether it be based upon strong ethical positions or religious conviction. Sometimes the companies benefit from such a stance, sometimes they're hurt by them, but unless they emphasize their views publicly, I'm not really sure if they would see much of a difference in their bottom line. Even when they do make it public, there still may not be an overall change in their profits. Hobby Lobby is probably going to see an increase in sales from conservative customers and may lose more of their progressive customers. It is because of this that I suspect that they won't see any real net difference in the long run.
They could have went with what was more common place ethically, and offered a health insurance plan that included birth control, but decided to take a moral stance. It is generally more ethical in the business world to offer their employees a health plan that meet their healthcare needs. A can't say for sure how an employee making $10/hour would feel about not having birth control coverage, but I bet they can't afford to have all too many children on that wage. It would have been more ethical to consider the need of its employees. The employees don't have any recourse except to quit if they don't like it and it isn't always in their best interest to do so.
I think that here in the U.S., we need to reframe the issue. I think it is time that we move away from employer-based healthcare coverage and into a nationalized one, where citizens have more protection by the government to prevent an employer from making ethical judgements about what sort of healthcare they should receive. Would it now be possible for a CEO that is a Scientologist to exclude anti-depressants in the healthcare plans of its employees? (If I were a scientologist, why would I have to pay for someone's else's imagined depression?) It sounds ridiculous today, but that is the danger of the waters we've entered here.
The best plan is to decouple health care from the employer, rather than get into any complicated matters about the proper objectives of corporate entities.
I understand that that idea of “corporate personhood” has been around for over a hundred years…but the difference is that they weren’t recognized and given the same rights that each man and woman are given under the US Constitution. Citizen’s United changed that by saying that money was equal to free speech…which basically sold out our democracy to the highest bidder, not the way it was intended to be. The McCutcheon decision took that even further and stripped away the caps on election contraptions, further selling us out. This most recent decision once again took the idea that corporations are “people” and give them religious rights…the only problem with that is that those rights now supersede the rights of those working for them…the actual people.Firstly, corporate personhood has existed long before the Citizens' United decision. Corporations have always been considered legal persons, this is what enables the corporation to sue and be sued. When the Board of a company meets, and when a General Meeting of the shareholders is called, those meetings are said to actually be the company. Part of the development of corporate law has involved the board using a company seal which functions as the signature of that person. This has been true of many international jurisdictions, such as Australia and the UK. I think the proper distinction to make is that the Citizens' United decision in America seems to grant these legal persons more rights that would have been considered the rights of a citizen, rather than the rights of a legal person. That said, I have not read the decision, so I could be wrong there.
Secondly, courts exist to interpret and uphold the law as new and existing circumstances emerge from the various cases they have to decide. As such, courts frequently do make broad, sweeping changes which affect the entire operation of the law and the social landscape, because the laws which exist do need to be interpreted in new circumstances, and the existing legal precedent needs to be reviewed to ensure that it remains correct. It is proper for legal experts to examine the laws of the executive and the legislature to ensure that they do not affront the constitution, no matter what Jefferson may have thought about it in his particular case.
Thirdly, business ethics are hardly agreed upon by the entire business community. The example of giving Dimon a raise for getting JP Morgan out of regulatory strife is a clear example - business communities are bitterly divided as to whether or not that was appropriate. I'm a lobbyist in finance, and the people I represent in Australia are consistently reviled for their lack of professional ethics, yet praised for their prudent management of our economy and the financial security of many of our clients. Nothing in that space is settled. I do a metric fuckton of research into which structures promote ethical behaviour in corporations, which professional ethics are important in which industries, how to promote transparency and professionalism, etc. and the differences in views are as wide as anything in religion.
Fourth, not all religious activity in corporations needs to violate rights. If a business owner declared tomorrow that it was in the interests of the company to demonstrate compassion for its workers, and thus offer them higher health care benefits and extra psychological services at secular/religious institutions of their choosing, and did that for religious reasons, not only would the media not report on it but nobody would cite religion as the cause. If we are determined to stop the maltreatment of workers in the workplace by their managers, then that would include unfair dismissal and bullying on the basis of race/gender/religion/ability/etc. It does not have to be about the separation of religion and state.
I've only read a little about this but to be honest I can understand and support the reason for the ruling, its the tactic of a lot of illiberal liberal causes to drive people broke, either deliberately or as a by product of law suits and claims aimed at realising unreasonable and unrealistic expectations.
Its not about government action or inaction in favour of religion, its about what way the law courts are likely to be used by these other agitators, and that's not what what law courts are intended for.
I think its a shame that well meaning and intended legislation can be exploited in this way and I'm disappointed that liberals dont think about this sort of thing because it just strengthens the hand of conservatives with reasonable or critical people, often with older people, the hippies might've been the first people to recognise intergenerational conflict was a major shaper of political and social conditions but its been the conservatives who've benefited from that insight in the longer term.
No, it was about a conservative group, a for-profit closely held corporation, pushing their religious views on their employees who wanted their birth control paid for in their medical insurance plans (which every for-profit up unit this point has been doing). Because their have supposed “deeply held religious beliefs", they argued their religious rights were being trampled by the government, as the employer having to pay for a product that they say caused abortions (even though the science say the products do not). What’s more, if their values are so “deeply held” then the investments that they made into the companies that produced these products would have deeply offended them too (which it didn’t). http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickung...-products-while-claiming-religious-objection/
This will now allow corporations to discriminate on the basis of “religious objections” against anything that offends them….it has already begun against the LGBT community.
I respectfully disagree with the opinions you are stating as fact here, there has been vicious campaigning already, it has involved the LGBT community as a proxy, unfortunately for them, but it has been about aggressive secularisation.
Not everyone wants to or has to live in that sort of a world.
I understand if you want to object to “living in that world” but now they can be fired for being gay which is bullshit.
I can give you sources like the Forbes article I supplied later after work if you like…these are facts Lark.
Hobby Lobby is a conservative Christian group.
They wanted to not pay for birth control on religious grounds.
They are invested in companies who make birth control that they object to.
The religious liberty of the corporations now supersedes the liberty of it’s employees.
Those are factual things.
Well, here is where you haven’t experienced the wonder that is the US health care system…lol.I dont believe that it should be the responsibility of corporations to provide for individuals birth control and family planning, I can see how that legal responsibility would be exploited by the architects of a secular order to drive corporations broke and the decisions made about this legislation will prevent that happening, which I'm fine with.
This isnt a prohibition on contraception as it has been presented by sensationalists wishing to stoke secular antipathy.
I also dont believe that there is any way what so ever that the US government is going to sanction dismissal of employees on the grounds of sexual orientation, that is just nonsensical in the extreme, although it fits the trend of using the LGBT community as the victimised underdog which needs defending, this is itself a proxy struggle for a lot of the aggressive anti-religious sentiments because there can not be that many homosexuals as a percentage of the politically involved population out there.
However there has been someone dismissed from their employment for having an opinion on LGBT politics, an opinion which isnt one of unconditional and uncritical validation, approval and promotion. It wasnt a state sanctioned action. It wasnt big brother. It was King Mob. Unfortunately illiberal liberalism doesnt worry too much about King Mob anymore and mistakes it for democracy most of the time. They need to read Barnaby Rudge.
Think about it because you seem like a fairly smart guy who does a lot of reading and tries to evaluate things in a critical fashion.
Hobby Lobby already covered 16 of the 20 methods of contraception mandated under the Affordable Care Act, but it didn’t cover Plan B One-Step, Ella (another brand of emergency contraception) and two forms of intrauterine devices. This is because the owners of Hobby Lobby have incorrectly labeled these methods of birth control and emergency contraception as “abortifacients,” a claim popular among anti-choice ideologues but refuted by scientific evidence and major reproductive health associations.“These medications are there to prevent or delay ovulation,” Dr. Petra Casey, an obstetrician-gynecologist at the Mayo Clinic, told the New York Times in a piece on the science behind emergency contraception. “They don’t act after fertilization.” As the Times noted, there is no credible evidence to support the claim that emergency contraception like Plan B and ella prevent fertilized eggs from implanting in the womb. Instead, the pills delay ovulation and hormonal IUDs thicken cervical mucus to prevent sperm from reaching the egg, meaning that fertilization never even occurs. When used as a form of emergency contraception, the copper IUD can interrupt implantation, but this still does not mean a pregnancy has occurred.
@Lark
I feel you are secretly bigoted because I often see you talking about how the liberals and hippies do this and that, but boy do you put up a fight if anyone talks bad about your precious RCC.
I think you are a fairly intelligent guy too Lark and I will check out the book you recommended…but I cannot agree that this ruling will not cause more strife than it was intended to, nor do I think it is backlash from liberalism gone wild. I think it was brought forward by a group that used religion to exempt themselves from having to pay for IUD which are at the very least $1000 per person every 5 years.
There is a ray of sunshine perhaps peaking around the clouds…there is a possibility the insurance provider will provide the birth-control for “free” since it is cheaper than paying for the birth of a newborn…we’ll see.
You have a good point there…IMO I don’t believe that the majority of Christians here are so conservatively right wing as our media news headlines would have us believe, but yes, they are more vocal and those who are the more moderate majority don’t really give a shit and so “Mum" is the word.I dont doubt that it is an expense that individuals could do without, I do think that family planning is often cheaper than unplanned pregnancies or unwanted children, I think that family planning is a great idea and I include every means in that, not just natural forms of contraception, and I'm even in favour of some kinds of programmes which are total and utter anathema to roman catholics in general such as opt out (as opposed to opt in) universal programmes of contraceptive implants (I'm in favour of eugenics, as I understand it, too though).
However, given the context of the US, I know that if legislation regarding the sponsorship of health services is not pretty fine tuned it will run into litigatious society and political law suit territory.
Everything is not happy in the garden as regards religion co-existing with secularism, and much like any other polarising issue like race, sexual orientation, sexism, it doesnt matter how much of an "enlightened", "liberal", "pragmatic" etc. version of one side or the other you are when you meet the militants of your opposite number they could give a shit and they will want to wipe you out.
Maybe they are only a small, vocal minority but they will be able to do enough to convince more apathetic or moderate others they've no choice but to rally to them.
I hate to say I told you so….but I told you so...
SC Restaurant Owner Refuses To Serve Blacks, Cites Religious Beliefs
South Carolina, a BBQ restaurant owner claimed that he was within his rights to refuse service to blacks based on his religious beliefs. In the case brought before the Supreme Court, Maurice Bessinger stated that his religion required him to keep black people from eating in his restaurant, although he was perfectly OK with taking their money, so long as they ordered their food to-go. The attorney representing the petitioners suing Piggie Park also addressed in court the “First Amendment religious privilege claim that petitioner asserted that his religion required him” to deny service to black customers. “I’m just a fair man. I want to be known as a hard-working, Christian man that loves God and wants to further (God’s) work throughout the world as I have been doing throughout the last 25 years.” (Source)
You have a good point there…IMO I don’t believe that the majority of Christians here are so conservatively right wing as our media news headlines would have us believe, but yes, they are more vocal and those who are the more moderate majority don’t really give a shit and so “Mum" is the word.
They won’t speak up until those groups push the boundary too far, possibly tho far for them to push it back.
I hate to say I told you so….but I told you so...
SC Restaurant Owner Refuses To Serve Blacks, Cites Religious Beliefs
South Carolina, a BBQ restaurant owner claimed that he was within his rights to refuse service to blacks based on his religious beliefs. In the case brought before the Supreme Court, Maurice Bessinger stated that his religion required him to keep black people from eating in his restaurant, although he was perfectly OK with taking their money, so long as they ordered their food to-go. The attorney representing the petitioners suing Piggie Park also addressed in court the “First Amendment religious privilege claim that petitioner asserted that his religion required him” to deny service to black customers. “I’m just a fair man. I want to be known as a hard-working, Christian man that loves God and wants to further (God’s) work throughout the world as I have been doing throughout the last 25 years.” (Source)
If you were, would you admit it?I'm not bigotted. Its not the first time someone who couldnt come up with something worthwhile to say has suggested that though.
Actually…in the news today, there is a deluge of lawsuits that aim to exploit this new law…the one I posted is just one of many out there right now. The Reformation of Religion Act that was Republican sponsored and signed bi-partisanly by Clinton protected that people from be persecuted for any religious beliefs…it is only now with this decision, that the radicals are coming out of the woodwork and trying to take advantage of the opening it has given them.What I meant was that the mass of conservatives or liberals are generally the pragmatic sorts but it is the militants of each camps, themselves minorities, which are dangerous, they are willing to exploit any opportunity, including legislation of this kind in this instance, to try and spark the sort of total struggle of their dreams in which their own moderates, as much as the oppositions militants, will have to take part.
Not everyone wants war but that doesnt make a difference if enough people can be persuaded they dont have a choice and any offence is really defence.
Although, as I've said at the outset, I dont see this action as radical conservatism on the offensive, I still see it as the courts trying to head off a deluge of political law suits which would have been aimed at putting anyone falling short of secularisms expectations and standards in a corner.
This sounds stupid but its sorts of dirty tactics which are routine on the extremes, I've known free marketeers and commies both to send bricks to the offices of NGOs they hate, often with charitable status, with the postage under paid, knowing that they'll have to pick up the tab on the postage. Those are just simple examples of "monkey wrenching", aimed at putting people "out of business", using economic muscle to shut up opposition and disable it.